Upgrade Time! Help?

[Rick]

Well, unfortunately my Bazooka "sub" blew out it appears, was probably around 7 to 10 years old so it had a good time. Well, all the original speakers are still in the car and I think its time for a upgrade, especially with Christmas right around the corner. To MY knowledge, the front door panels on the cutlass have the normal 5.25" component speakers with a small crossover to a tweeter. The rear door panel speakers are just 6.5" also to my knowledge, I believe they are just full range speakers and not components since the tweeter is built into the woofer region.

 

I also figure now's a good time since I fixed my car window and door panel, so might as well throw some new speakers in before putting everything back together!

 

I want to do this right and I honestly am not the best when it comes to speakers. Wiring them is one thing, everything I need is another. I have heard if I get nice high power speakers I will want to run them to an amp, is that true? Keep in mind my car is a 1995 Cutlass Convertible, so loud speakers are a must when summer top down comes around. I also want the possibility to run a sub(s?) in the trunk of my car.

 

I have a DEH-3300UB Pioneer Headunit, roughly 6 months old. I want far superior speakers to what is currently in my car, and if its possible speakers with higher bass output. Maybe around the level you would find in a new model car, not crazy levels from the speakers but definitely a decent amount(Ex:Friends 2010 Lancer or 2005/6 Acura RSX). As currently, the front 5.25s have no bass output, and the rear is minimal at best.

 

Money Cap is at around $200. Excluding subs, those would be at a later time. Anyone want to help me start it off or bounce me some ideas? Thanks!

 

EDIT:::Realized the speakers are aftermarket, but probably exceptionally old. They are Cerwin Vega and the fronts are SS-2502 which popped no hits on google, not sure if that helps anyone with anything. Just found they came out in 2000, so are probably around 8 to 10 years old. Also...on the window sticker the package that came with the car was "6 spkr dimensional sound sys", which was higher than basic, just an extra fyi. Just read that the front doors can also hold 6.5", that an adapter is used to fit 5.25" in the doors. Anyone able to verify if this is true?

Edited December 13, 2011 by Rick

[alec_b]

I'm sure xtreme will pop in here soon, but I'll throw in my .02

 

It really depends on what you want out of the system. I've heard the boomy OEM systems, you most likely won't get that kind of result, nor would you want to. Those systems sound like that through artificial EQ and crappy speakers. Plus, most OEM stereo's now have the amp mounted externally, and can provide more power to said crappy speakers than your Pioneer HU can, but not by much.

 

Since you're getting a sub in the (near) future, I wouldn't worry about your speakers putting out much bass, most likely nothing below 80hz, 100hz is probably more realistic. If you do NOT want to run a 4-ch amp, you're going to want to look for aftermarket speakers with a high sensitivity and a wide frequency response. 90db+ would be good for sensitivity.

 

Now wait for xtreme to jump in, he'll give a much better explanation of what I'm getting at.

[xtremerevolution]

Well, unfortunately my Bazooka "sub" blew out it appears, was probably around 7 to 10 years old so it had a good time. Well, all the original speakers are still in the car and I think its time for a upgrade, especially with Christmas right around the corner. To MY knowledge, the front door panels on the cutlass have the normal 5.25" component speakers with a small crossover to a tweeter. The rear door panel speakers are just 6.5" also to my knowledge, I believe they are just full range speakers and not components since the tweeter is built into the woofer region.

 

I also figure now's a good time since I fixed my car window and door panel, so might as well throw some new speakers in before putting everything back together!

 

I want to do this right and I honestly am not the best when it comes to speakers. Wiring them is one thing, everything I need is another. I have heard if I get nice high power speakers I will want to run them to an amp, is that true? Keep in mind my car is a 1995 Cutlass Convertible, so loud speakers are a must when summer top down comes around. I also want the possibility to run a sub(s?) in the trunk of my car.

 

I have a DEH-3300UB Pioneer Headunit, roughly 6 months old. I want far superior speakers to what is currently in my car, and if its possible speakers with higher bass output. Maybe around the level you would find in a new model car, not crazy levels from the speakers but definitely a decent amount(Ex:Friends 2010 Lancer or 2005/6 Acura RSX). As currently, the front 5.25s have no bass output, and the rear is minimal at best.

 

Money Cap is at around $200. Excluding subs, those would be at a later time. Anyone want to help me start it off or bounce me some ideas? Thanks!

 

EDIT:::Realized the speakers are aftermarket, but probably exceptionally old. They are Cerwin Vega and the fronts are SS-2502 which popped no hits on google, not sure if that helps anyone with anything. Just found they came out in 2000, so are probably around 8 to 10 years old. Also...on the window sticker the package that came with the car was "6 spkr dimensional sound sys", which was higher than basic, just an extra fyi. Just read that the front doors can also hold 6.5", that an adapter is used to fit 5.25" in the doors. Anyone able to verify if this is true?

 

Before we start, I want you to understand a theory about audio in general. What sounds good to you will only be as good as what you've trained your ears to hear. You can to go Best Buy, spend $1000-$1500 and get a sound system that you think sounds amazing. You will then (not bragging here, just stating facts) step into my car, which has about the same amount put in, and you will be blown away. You will then go back to Best Buy and ask for a refund, or always be haunted by the fact that it doesn't sound as good. BUT...until you hear something better, YOU will be very happy with what you have.

 

Now, I mention that because when you get advice for car audio, it will be based on the experience someone had and how trained their ears are to hear sound quality. What makes you happy might be a set of Polk Audio DB5251 components, which is what I ran for the last 5 years. You can get them for $100, which is a great deal for speakers like those. But once I heard what midbass was supposed to sound like, they just didn't compare. Alternately, what might make someone else happy would be nothing short of a set of HAT, Rainbow, or Focal components, most of which are out of your budget.

 

So, knowing that, my first bit of advice is that $200 won't get you very far, period. To do what you want, if you want loud, you'll need new front and rear speakers. The fronts will have to be components, the rears can be generics (seriously, rear fill is just that, fill), and you'll need an amp. $200? I don't think so, even if you get it all used. You're going to need to look in the range of $300 for just speakers, $400-$500 if you want to "do it right."

 

Let me define "do it right." "Do it right" means that you understand that the install is just as important, if not more important, than the components you're using. More on that later.

 

To get bass you need one of two things; excursion or cone area. Basically, you need to move air. A 5.25" driver won't move a lot of air. A 6.5" driver will move more air. You also need higher power handling, so you can create that output with some fidelity and not make your head hurt. You don't have to go all out with sound quality, but believe me when I say it will sound like crap if you get really cheap components.

 

Back to the install. In order to hear bass, you need to separate the front waves of the speaker from the back waves. Ever tried to play a speaker in open air? No bass. Once you put it back in a cabinet or mount it back into the door, some of that bass comes back. Your ability to separate those waves is crucial to having some midbass output in your car. A company called Sound Deadener Showdown makes products that allow you to treat your door to accomplish that separation, although there are many ways to do it. Some people choose to use cheaper sound deadening equipment, but the general idea is that you need to cover up some of the holes. Have you taken off your door panel yet? If not, try it out. It will probably look like swiss cheese. Bunch of holes everywhere for the backwaves of the speaker to escape. Here's what mine looked like halfway through my sound deadening install:

 

 

If you want midbass, I guarantee that no matter how much you spend on your speakers, it will be pointless until you seal the backwaves from the front waves. You can go cheap with something like Elemental Designs eDead (basically flashing tape), or you can use SDS materials.

 

 

 

Now that we have that out of the way, here's what you'll need. You'll need an amp; no way to get around it. If you want to get loud and sound great, your head unit won't cut it. I know this because I have a similar head unit. The exact model number escapes me, but its also a Pioneer, one generation older. It might say its 50W x 4, but that's a complete lie as its only a peak rating at 10% distortion at the verge of clipping. To make a long story short, all but the beefiest head units will output 7-8W per channel RMS. Not going to be enough man.

 

To run the amp, you'll need:

A. the amp itself

B. RCA signal wire from the head unit (17-18ft usually)

C. power wires from the engine bay (4 gauge would be fine for a stereo amp, but it MUST be copper, not CCA (copper clad aluminum)). Regarding power wires, you can often get them in a kit, but finding true 4 gauge wire and copper isn't always easy. Either way, these kits come with an inline fuse, which you'd also need.

 

 

So here are my recommendations.

 

Run the rear 6x9s (or 6.5" speakers) off of the head unit's power. Don't put too much emphasis on these, they can be cheap (but don't go Sony or Jensen, something by JBL or Pioneer would be decent). Spend about $50 here.

 

Get yourself a good 2 channel amp. You'd spend about $100 for a new one, or you could do something like what I have lying around. Go oldschool. Stupid reliable, built like tanks, and often cheap. I actually have one of these on a shelf in my garage. Still works great, built in 1991, and puts out a lot of power. These are almost always heavily underrated, but you'd have to buy one with either buyer protection (ebay), or from someone you trust (such as from a member on diyma.com, where you pay with paypal and still get buyer protection).

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coustic-Power-Logic-460-Amp-12v-car-stereo-/150718866090?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item23178b62aa#ht_500wt_1202

 

An option if you wanted a new amp would be something like this:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_23657_Precision-Power-PPI-S420.2.html - only 1 left in stock

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_26850_JL-Audio-J2-360.2-J2360.2.html

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_22733_Kenwood-KAC-7205.html

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_27731_Massive-Audio-NX2.html

 

Get 22 feet of 4 gauge copper and an inline fuse from www.knukonceptz.com. Figure about $35 for just the wire.

 

Determine if you can actually run a 6.5" speaker in the front door. As you saw in the picture above, that's a 6.5" speaker in the door of my 95 Regal. I had to make that baffle because the speaker motor is gigantic and because there's no way in hell that even a "low profile" 6.5" speaker would have fit in my door. If your door is anything like mine, you can kiss your 6.5" dreams goodbye. I've put way too much time into these doors.

 

Here are some options:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_15808_Diamond-Audio-D151.html

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_18912_Infinity-Reference-5030cs.html

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_9112_Polk-Audio-db5251-5-1-4-2-way-Component-System.html

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_33284_Massive-Audio-CK-5III.html

 

I've used the Polk DB5251s and they are awesome, but they lack in midbass output on a door that's not well treated. The Infinity Reference speakers are pretty good. The Massive Audio kit will probably be the loudest. Those are just a few suggestions, but I wouldn't go too far below a $100 price point on components.

 

Then, you'll need some speaker wire (doesn't matter where you get it from, 18 gauge and thicker would work), and at least some sound deadening material such as this:

 

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=786

 

You could probably treat both doors with 25-30 square feet of it.

 

Alternately, you can use SDS materials, but you'd be dropping well over $100 to treat both doors at that point.

 

Holy shit, I just realized how much I wrote...

[Rick]

Might of been a lot you wrote, but all was very helpful. Let me start from the top I suppose lol. I expect to spend more than 200, that was just a price point, however much I get from listing my last computer build on ebay will go to my car. Also...for your door, is that duct-tape...or the edead stuff? Okay so for the doors, it will have to be 5.25", noway around it without a lot of modding ive read, and tried for a little. Rears would be 6.5".

 

So this is what I have...

(2) 5.25" Components:$100

(2) 6.5" Full-Range:$50

Amp:$50used-$100new

Copper Power Wire:I have about 20ft thats running to my trunk that powered my old Bazooka sub, could that be reused? I would just need another inline fuse, I blew the last one.

Have RCA wires already.

 

 

I will check all the links you posted tomorrow, have to finish up AP Physics homework for a test tomorrow and its already midnight. Thanks for the lengthy reply, it helped a lot! I know your the one to ask about sub boxes too haha

[xtremerevolution]

Might of been a lot you wrote, but all was very helpful. Let me start from the top I suppose lol. I expect to spend more than 200, that was just a price point, however much I get from listing my last computer build on ebay will go to my car. Also...for your door, is that duct-tape...or the edead stuff? Okay so for the doors, it will have to be 5.25", noway around it without a lot of modding ive read, and tried for a little. Rears would be 6.5".

 

So this is what I have...

(2) 5.25" Components:$100

(2) 6.5" Full-Range:$50

Amp:$50used-$100new

Copper Power Wire:I have about 20ft thats running to my trunk that powered my old Bazooka sub, could that be reused? I would just need another inline fuse, I blew the last one.

Have RCA wires already.

 

 

I will check all the links you posted tomorrow, have to finish up AP Physics homework for a test tomorrow and its already midnight. Thanks for the lengthy reply, it helped a lot! I know your the one to ask about sub boxes too haha

 

The stuff I have on my door is two layers of eDead 40, not duct tape. The link I posted was for eDead 80, which I believe would serve you better.

 

And yeah, no way are you going to get 6.5" components unless you do what I'm doing. All of my work so far is custom, and that driver barely clears the window rail by 1/4". Also, there was no way it was going to fit behind the factory grill. Lots and lots and lots of cutting, routing, and sanding went into making these. I just finished painting them black over the weekend. A couple of clear coats, and they'll be ready to install.

 

 

As for the rest, looking good so far. I'd say you can definitely use the wiring you have right now for the two front channels. Any idea how thick it is? If its 4 gauge, you might even be able to get away with using a low powered sub; 250W or less. Worst case, you'll need to run another power wire when you put a sub in there.

[white4d96]

For sound deadener, Audio Technix or bust. I run their 60 mil and it is amazing stuff. Sticks like hell even before you put the heat gun to it.

 

For speakers, if you are on a budget, you should check out the Vibe Blackair series (with the yellow cone.) I just installed their 6x9's in my car about two weeks ago and I can't believe them. For $50-60 I paid, they are worth every penny. I'm mulling trying the comps as well, as they are on Sonicelectronix for $99.99 IIRC. if you are just a casual listener that should be more than sufficient. If you're like me or Andrei, you're going to be upgrading almost on a weekly basis regardless of where you start

 

 

EDITED because I had prices wrong.

Edited December 13, 2011 by white4d96

[xtremerevolution]

For sound deadener, Audio Technix or bust. I run their 60 mil and it is amazing stuff. Sticks like hell even before you put the heat gun to it.

 

If you're like me or Andrei, you're going to be upgrading almost on a weekly basis regardless of where you start

 

 

EDITED because I had prices wrong.

 

Never actually used the Audio Technix stuff. I think a lot of it is pretty similar with the exception of the SDS stuff. The guy sent me a "kit" weighing 30 pounds with a sampling of his equipment, enough to outfit one door. 13 CLD tiles, a roll of closed cell vinyl barrier, and some rope caulk. I still have to do some tests to see if its worth it, but so far, there's no comparison between what he sells and anything else I've ever used.

 

As for upgrading, ain't that the truth. You upgrade, you hear something better, you upgrade again, and you go through phases. The most common phase is the SPL phase, where you want it loud; comps, subs, etc. Then you get in the SQ phase, where you learn how important the install is, how to keep all of your car's panels from resonating and sounding like crap. Then, after going through many subs and components, you settle down on a good amp, a good SQL sub, and you start to learn that after a certain point, its pointless to spend more money, because all that SQ goes right out the window the moment you introduce road noise.

 

Its a learning experience, but I've discovered that you can skip many of those steps and save a lot of money by following the advice of others who have done the same thing. Its great that you came here for advice instead of picking random parts.

[alec_b]

Man I can't wait to have a car worth putting this much time into. I refuse to put a great stereo in a car I'm not keeping.

 

Once again xtreme, you have explained it to a tee. I should have just shut up and let him wait for your response.

[jake91]

im just waiting for 2 things a car worth spenting alot of money on and andrei to settle on a sq system so i can copy lmao

[Rick]

Well, im off to college in a year and plan on being there a minimal of 4 years, so figure I might as well put a little time and effort in making it worthwhile. A second question, I have those 6.5" in the rear, I know you said they are just "fill" speakers so are they worth replacing since they are aftermarket, but still old and not high quality or would that $50 or so be better spent on higher quality components in the front door panels? Another issue is that I noticed water is dripping in the door, which explains the small amount of rust on the bottom of the door. Is this a worry for affecting the speakers? Or for the sound-deadening material adhesive? Thanks again for all the input! Cant wait to have it all planned out and then only be waiting on the cash to purchase them.

[xtremerevolution]

Man I can't wait to have a car worth putting this much time into. I refuse to put a great stereo in a car I'm not keeping.

 

Once again xtreme, you have explained it to a tee. I should have just shut up and let him wait for your response.

 

Haha, don't worry man. I'm not the only one who knows anything. The more people that help, the better.

 

im just waiting for 2 things a car worth spenting alot of money on and andrei to settle on a sq system so i can copy lmao

 

There won't be much of a point of copying me. My install will be so customized that it will be pointless to try to copy it. You can copy certain elements, but in the end, you will have to tune to your ears in your specific car. For example, the tweeters I'm using run very hot (bright, loud), compared to the drivers, so they *must* be run off-axis mounted close to the drivers in the doors. I've cut out an additional hole in that MDF baffle for the tweeters. During initial tests, they sounded great there, but that also lowered my sound stage. The way I'm fixing that is by installing two 3" full range TangBand drivers higher up toward the top of the doors with a capacitor for a high pass filter. The drivers I'm using are very similar to these:

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-812

 

These will help raise the sound stage and make it sound more natural. I'll be running them off a very old (1991) Coustic Power Logic amp, 30Wx2, as they will only be there for sound stage. I will not be running rear speakers as these will create a full enough sound inside the entire car that where you won't even notice they're gone.

 

Will this work for everyone else? Not unless they want to start making custom speaker pods. When you're ready to start spending money on car audio, make a thread and we'll make recommendations for you based on your budget.

 

Well, im off to college in a year and plan on being there a minimal of 4 years, so figure I might as well put a little time and effort in making it worthwhile. A second question, I have those 6.5" in the rear, I know you said they are just "fill" speakers so are they worth replacing since they are aftermarket, but still old and not high quality or would that $50 or so be better spent on higher quality components in the front door panels? Another issue is that I noticed water is dripping in the door, which explains the small amount of rust on the bottom of the door. Is this a worry for affecting the speakers? Or for the sound-deadening material adhesive? Thanks again for all the input! Cant wait to have it all planned out and then only be waiting on the cash to purchase them.

 

There are two groups of people when it comes to car audio, and I'll attempt to explain the two as best as I can.

 

The first are the kind who like an "in the club" sound. Without much experience or a well trained ear, this will sound best to them, which is perfectly fine. This kind of sound has the rear speakers playing at the same volume as the front speakers playing. This is beneficial for people who often carry rear passengers.

 

The second are the kind who focus on sound stage. I've been trying to focus my energy on that with my car, although my wife's car is set up more as an "in the club" type. Once you play around with the sound a bit and get a good set of front components, you'll notice that if the rear speakers are kept at the same volume, the sound will always sound like its coming from behind you. Ideally, you should be able to imagine the performance of the music being played in front of you. For this reason, many people will either fade their speakers toward the front heavily and use the rear speakers only for fill or for when they carry passengers, or they'll do what I've done and remove their rear speakers entirely. I got to the point where if I had any sound playing in the rear speakers, it shifted my sound stage to right behind my head. It just didn't sound good to me. A well executed front sound stage will not require rear speakers. However, I also don't have back seats in my car. so I don't have to worry about passengers. If I did have passengers, they would be quite annoyed as there are no speakers back there, the front sound stage is farther away, and the sub is right against their backs.

 

The reason why you don't need to care too much about the rear speakers is that its impossible to make them sound good. The window reflections as a result of the rear speakers firing upward (in a typical car) will cause all sorts of problems. If you have a convertible, you will need to decide how much effort to put into the rear speakers based on how often you'll be entertaining passengers. As a start, if you're on a budget, I'd much rather see you spend decent money on your front sound stage and upgrade the rear in the future, than split up your funds between the front and the rear and sacrifice some of your front sound stage performance. Quite frankly, that $50 would certainly be better spent on better front components.

 

As for the water dripping, that's because when it rains and your window gets wet, the water needs to go somewhere. This will drip from inside and escape through a few holes at the bottom of your door. This will not affect your ability to use sound dampening material, as it will stick to the sheet metal and stay there permanently. This stuff is a peel-n-stick material which has a wax paper type backing that you peel off. Once you apply it to a sheet metal surface, it will stay there. You can generally remove it and play around with it for a week or so, but wait a while and that stuff will not come off intact.

 

The water is not a worry for the speakers as the speaker adapters in your doors should have a shield built into them.

 

If you use a high quality used amplifier, get some good deals on equipment, and take your time to do a proper install, you can have a very nice sounding system for a very low price.

 

 

 

I recently completed an install for a buddy of mine. Including the head unit, he spent around $750 for his entire install. All of his parts were bought used with the exception of wiring and the head unit, and he got very high end SQ equipment. Here are some pictures of the install I did in his car:

 

Edited December 14, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[white4d96]

Mmm, Arc...

[xtremerevolution]

Mmm, Arc...

I think we put that in .9 cubic feet with a double thick recessed baffle (you can see the chamfer on the edges since the second baffle stuck out too far), and a 3.5" thick sheet of fiberglass against the back of the box. Absolutely incredible. I was blown away by how much bass that thing delivered on 250W RMS. I was even more blown away by the PPI components we put in, and the fact that he got them for $125 shipped. Mounted the tweeters at the top of the doors near the pillars slightly off axis, and damn, what an amazing sound stage. It still boggles my mind how much he got for $750, which includes all wiring, sub carpet, and install materials. Retail value of his components easily exceeded $1500. Edited December 14, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[Rick]

Nice to know that about the dripping, I noticed the 95 had the shields, unlike my prior 94 Vert'. Should be listing my computer parts tonight, hopefully they sell quick as ill probably list them as buy it now. Its been constantly raining here the last few days so I unfortunately haven't been able to "fix" my window, which likes to fall off track so were creating a separate stopper to now disallow the window to fall all the way out of the track. When there is a let up in the rain I will also find out what gauge the power wire is for you so you can let me know if it is adequate or not.

 

I was searching around on crutchfield, which i've always heard great things about but figured I would give amazon a check and see how prices compare. I read the reviews of the Polk DB5251 and they seem great, and sound great the way you describe them too so its a top qualifier in my mind right now, especially for the price.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-DB5251-5-25-Inch-Component/dp/tech-data/B000P0PFA0/ref=de_a_smtd

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB5251/Polk-Audio-db5251.html

 

Do you think this amp could power those speakers?

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC5204/Kenwood-KAC-5204.html?tp=115

 

I have plenty of copper line running from the battery post, not sure what guage it is, but its thick and red lined/clear plastic wrapped. I would assume I could splice it and wire it to a 10guage wire if possible with a inline fuse to the amp. If it works too, that would be right around $150, which would leave me to decide if I want to upgrade my rear 6.5s or not, or go with the edead80.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Rick

[xtremerevolution]

Nice to know that about the dripping, I noticed the 95 had the shields, unlike my prior 94 Vert'. Should be listing my computer parts tonight, hopefully they sell quick as ill probably list them as buy it now. Its been constantly raining here the last few days so I unfortunately haven't been able to "fix" my window, which likes to fall off track so were creating a separate stopper to now disallow the window to fall all the way out of the track. When there is a let up in the rain I will also find out what gauge the power wire is for you so you can let me know if it is adequate or not.

 

I was searching around on crutchfield, which i've always heard great things about but figured I would give amazon a check and see how prices compare. I read the reviews of the Polk DB5251 and they seem great, and sound great the way you describe them too so its a top qualifier in my mind right now, especially for the price.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-DB5251-5-25-Inch-Component/dp/tech-data/B000P0PFA0/ref=de_a_smtd

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB5251/Polk-Audio-db5251.html

 

Do you think this amp could power those speakers?

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC5204/Kenwood-KAC-5204.html?tp=115

 

I have plenty of copper line running from the battery post, not sure what guage it is, but its thick and red lined/clear plastic wrapped. I would assume I could splice it and wire it to a 10guage wire if possible with a inline fuse to the amp. If it works too, that would be right around $150, which would leave me to decide if I want to upgrade my rear 6.5s or not, or go with the edead80.

 

That amp won't give you enough power, imo. I would step it up a notch to a 7204 model, but that series Kenwood amp is very good. I've been using a pair of KAC-7203D amps for as long as I've had the Polk speakers.

 

I do have to warn you, those Polks don't have a whole lot of bass without good door sealing (really, nothing in a 5.25" form will), so you will definitely need to seal up your doors if you want decent sound without a sub. I would go with the edead80 over replacing the rear speakers hands down.

 

Crutchfield is a good place to shop. I have also had good luck at sonicelectronix and onlinecarstereo. Shop around for price comparisons if you want to. Otherwise, you really can't go wrong with that place.

 

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk

[Rick]

Well, assuming enough edead80 for two doors is lets say, $50-$60 including shipping, may it be better to put that money to get a multi-channel amp which would allow for the front speakers and a subwoofer? I notice many amps put out 75W at 2ohms, I know the infinity speakers are at 2ohms, but are the Polk also? I dont expect an excessive amount of bass from the 5.25" speakers, I figure since I hear the Polk Speakers have great highs they would be greatly paired with perhaps a 10" sub. I dont know exactly what the channels mean, what it means when your "bridged" in a amplifier which allows for 150W. If you could explain me this that would be awesome, and point me towards the direction of a amplifier that could support the (2) 5.25" Polks and perhaps a 10 or 12" subwoofer, of you think thats a good idea that is, im always open to opinions.

[xtremerevolution]

Well, assuming enough edead80 for two doors is lets say, $50-$60 including shipping, may it be better to put that money to get a multi-channel amp which would allow for the front speakers and a subwoofer? I notice many amps put out 75W at 2ohms, I know the infinity speakers are at 2ohms, but are the Polk also? I dont expect an excessive amount of bass from the 5.25" speakers, I figure since I hear the Polk Speakers have great highs they would be greatly paired with perhaps a 10" sub. I dont know exactly what the channels mean, what it means when your "bridged" in a amplifier which allows for 150W. If you could explain me this that would be awesome, and point me towards the direction of a amplifier that could support the (2) 5.25" Polks and perhaps a 10 or 12" subwoofer, of you think thats a good idea that is, im always open to opinions.

 

You will need sound deadening either way. Without it, your panels will resonate, you will have no midbass (300hz down), and you will have a very difficult time blending any sub with your front sound stage.

 

You will need at least 250W RMS for a decent sub. What 4 channel do you know that can do that affordably? I'm talking CEA certified.

 

Polks are 4 ohms IIRC. I highly recommend around 100W RMS for the front speakers to prevent them from clipping because I know you're going to blast them. Somewhere in the 75-100W range would be good.

 

Bridging an amplifier refers to an option to connect two channels to become one with higher power. Most amps can do it and some can't. I would recommend using a 2 channel amp for the front sound stage and running a monoblock amp for the sub. Running a 4 channel amp and bridging two channels for the sub will likely limit your power available for the sub, but it may work.

 

The question I have for you is, how much of a bass head are you? Partsexpress is selling a very nice 6.5" sub for $8 a pop. You could actually run several of these as they don't need a lot of power and use a 4 channel amp as you had thought of before and scrap the idea of a 10" sub. 4 of these will have the cone area of a typical 12" sub and will run beautifully off of 100W. They will dig very deep for 6.5" drivers. I have 12 of them in my garage. I'm sure you could blow away a lot of people with them on a very modest budget in a well designed box. You happen to be talking to someone who designs excellent sub boxes.

 

Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk

[Rick]

Im slightly confused here...will a four channel amplifier be able to power both the front speakers along with your proposed 4 6.5" subwoofers? Or would that require a seperate 2-channel amplifier for the front and a 4-channel for the subs? Secondly, I have no clue in the world how you would construct a 4 subwoofer box, or know the proper calculations for how much volume of air should be on the inside, displacements, etc. The only thing I know about sub boxes is they are I believe made from fiberboard/plyboard and generally glued together to my knowledge. Thats about all I know, and that they are vented or sealed generally. I mean, if you believe it is manageable and most cost-efficient to go that route, im all for it. Plus, it would probably be cheaper with that route if im able to construct a box on my own. Granted there at $8 a pop, I have a feeling the shipping is where they get you, but shoot me a link and I'll take a look at them, or ill try finding them later tonight.

 

Alright, so sound deadening is needed no matter what. Do you just do the exterior of your car door or even the inside of your door panel or car door? Most likely will need a heat gun to apply it over winter, unless my dads willing to let me have the garage for a few days...which its unlikely haha. Ill do some dimensions on the door tomorrow to calculate the square footage I will need to try to not have excess. Might even do it tonight since im stuck doing square footage and heat loss and gains for my civil engineering course. I wonder if we will ever get into any sort of audio engineering, I assume if calculating heat loss and gains from insulation the same could be done with sounds. Getting ahead of myself and off topic...probably should get back to homework. Thanks again for all the helpful knowledge, to think I was completely oblivious to most of this I would of never guessed so much research and preparation went into upgrading a sound system.

[Garrett Powered]

the greatest advice here is the piece about running the amp. to do this you need the amp. agreed and not just any amp though.

 

I can go deeper in to this part of it and to as why it is so important.

 

however needing excursion and along with cone diameter as stated above is the definition of bass and not only those two are needed but air suspension as well obviously to extend to deeper output levels.

 

the original post is what really blew me away about how awesome this thread is though. the thought of a bazooka tube lasting that long. I have had a similar experience with 10+ year old Boston and JL stuff only it all shows hardly any signs of wear.

 

if I had a bazooka tube last that long I would replace the blown driver with another one and keep rockin.

 

but all that was said about install quality is true and I can't agree more to the importance of cone linearity and suspension. good news is that you can achieve this in your price range with that bass tube. just make sure it doesnt have any leaks when you are done. all things considered this should leave you sitting pretty good for that amount of money.

[xtremerevolution]

Im slightly confused here...will a four channel amplifier be able to power both the front speakers along with your proposed 4 6.5" subwoofers? Or would that require a seperate 2-channel amplifier for the front and a 4-channel for the subs? Secondly, I have no clue in the world how you would construct a 4 subwoofer box, or know the proper calculations for how much volume of air should be on the inside, displacements, etc. The only thing I know about sub boxes is they are I believe made from fiberboard/plyboard and generally glued together to my knowledge. Thats about all I know, and that they are vented or sealed generally. I mean, if you believe it is manageable and most cost-efficient to go that route, im all for it. Plus, it would probably be cheaper with that route if im able to construct a box on my own. Granted there at $8 a pop, I have a feeling the shipping is where they get you, but shoot me a link and I'll take a look at them, or ill try finding them later tonight.

 

Alright, so sound deadening is needed no matter what. Do you just do the exterior of your car door or even the inside of your door panel or car door? Most likely will need a heat gun to apply it over winter, unless my dads willing to let me have the garage for a few days...which its unlikely haha. Ill do some dimensions on the door tomorrow to calculate the square footage I will need to try to not have excess. Might even do it tonight since im stuck doing square footage and heat loss and gains for my civil engineering course. I wonder if we will ever get into any sort of audio engineering, I assume if calculating heat loss and gains from insulation the same could be done with sounds. Getting ahead of myself and off topic...probably should get back to homework. Thanks again for all the helpful knowledge, to think I was completely oblivious to most of this I would of never guessed so much research and preparation went into upgrading a sound system.

 

A good 4 channel amp will be bridgeable. Basically, you can run two of the channels for the fronts, and bridge the remaining two channels for the subs. Garrett Powered hit the nail on the head with regard to getting a good amp. Something by the likes of JL Audio, Alpine, Kenwood, Massive Audio, Image Dynamics, Sundown, and the list goes on and on. If you can't afford a good new one, get a good used one (such as the Coustic Power amp I posted earlier).

 

Don't worry about the box. I can walk you through it. I can give you exact dimensions, placement, port size and length, etc. I've designed over 100 sub boxes this year alone. All you'd need to be able to do is build it. If you have wood clamps, wood glue, and a way to cut a 6.5" circle, you can build a sub box. The circle cutting might get complicated. If you're interested, I could even build the box for you. In either case, it would need to be built out of MDF.

 

Shipping doesn't kill you as bad as you think. You'd likely not pay more than $15 for them. I've ordered well over $2000 worth of parts from them this year. I usually place orders that are over $100 so I get free shipping. I tried to check the site, but its down for some reason. Probably maintenance sine its 3:30 AM right now.

 

You probably won't need a heat gun, but using one wouldn't hurt. A hair dryer would suffice. You apply a few squares to the exterior panel (25% coverage), and apply the rest to the inner metal door skin panel. You don't need a 100% coverage on that panel, just enough to cover up what holes you can cover up, and enough to keep vibration induced resonance to a minimum.

 

Most people don't really go through this much research and preparation to upgrade their sound system. They usually half-ass it (by comparison), end up happy only until they hear a proper install, and spend the next 2-5 years (and countless dollars) figuring out how to make it better (learning exactly what I've told you so far).

 

Wait till you see what goes into designing a sub box.

Edited December 15, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[xtremerevolution]

Here you go. These are the mini subs I was talking about. Good amount of xmax. Not huge by any means, but 4 of them should move as much as a 10" sub. These can be crossed fairly high and still sound excellent, which is something you'll want if you like listening to a large variety of music that's not limited to rap, hip-hop, and dubstep.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-114

 

They're $8 each if you buy more than 4, and I'd get at least 4 if I were you, if not 8. These would sound very tight, and get deep enough for most music styles. That is, if you're on a budget.

 

In an ideal scenario, I'd get 8 of these drivers and a 4-channel amp that can do 75W per channel RMS, something like this (if you were to get it new):

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_065GTA704/Boston-Acoustics-GTA-704.html?tp=35782

 

Either that, or just run two 2-channel amps. I still think you should look at some oldschool amps, simply because they will give you solid, reliable power for an affordable price. If you could find two of those Coustic Power AMP-460s, you'd be set.

Edited December 15, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[Rick]

Thanks for all the links! Any idea how long the "sale" is going on those subwoofers? I think im landing a job right after Christmas by the sounds of it so part of me thinks if I can delay the build a few weeks longer then I would like I could hopefully have an extra $100 from training hours. I have a feeling im going to land those Polk Speakers once my items on ebay sell, if cash provides I will get the amplifier or similar to the one you linked and then after a few weeks of work I could purchase the woofers and materials for the box along with the sound deadener material, provided you can guide me through making it if I need help, which I will haha.

 

I am still looking around for the old school amplifiers, but its not as easy to find as I would of thought but im keeping an eye out on eBay and Craigslist.

 

-Rick

[xtremerevolution]

Thanks for all the links! Any idea how long the "sale" is going on those subwoofers? I think im landing a job right after Christmas by the sounds of it so part of me thinks if I can delay the build a few weeks longer then I would like I could hopefully have an extra $100 from training hours. I have a feeling im going to land those Polk Speakers once my items on ebay sell, if cash provides I will get the amplifier or similar to the one you linked and then after a few weeks of work I could purchase the woofers and materials for the box along with the sound deadener material, provided you can guide me through making it if I need help, which I will haha.

 

I am still looking around for the old school amplifiers, but its not as easy to find as I would of thought but im keeping an eye out on eBay and Craigslist.

 

-Rick

 

These are buyout drivers, which means partsexpress bought them from somewhere, who knows where, at a stupid and insanely low price, and they're offloading them with a small markup to the DIY community. When they're gone, they're gone, usually forever.. Could be a few months, could be a few weeks, could be tomorrow. I bought up 12 when I had the opportunity and I'm very glad I did because they are awesome drivers. Where else do you get a 6.5" subwoofer for $8?

 

You could also look on ebay for some other quality amps. The Kenwood KAC-7203s seem to be going for decent prices. If you find a deal anywhere, just post it here and I or someone else can take a look and let you know if it would be a good idea.

Edited December 19, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[Rick]

I found two Pioneer Amplifiers on eBay that seem...well, like a steal. Both are through a large eBay seller, which makes me believe they are bought in large quantities and refurbished. Both guarantee they work, and also have a 14day/30day return policy. Hard to find for electronics on eBay, but that eliminates any worry of DOA. The 5500T has very few reviews compared to the preceding 5400T which has numerous reviews that are exceptionally well.

 

Puts out 125Wx2 at 4ohms. 725W/820W Peak max. What do you think?

 

GM 5500T Pioneer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-GM-5500T-2-Channel-Bridgeable-Amplifier-/360419198460?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item53eaa885fc#shId

GM 5400T Pioneer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-GM-5400T-Amplifiers-Free-Shipping-/310365485770?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item4843397aca#shId

 

Im also in-between these two speakers. The Polk DB5251 and the Infinity 5030cs. Do you see any major benefits over one or the other, because to me I see them as nearly the same.

 

Let me know what you think!

Thanks,

-Rick

 

Edit: Graphics Card just sold for $75! That was quick, not even listen for 12 hours and Buy it now was hit. Now just for all the other components to sell to further get my closer to a new audio system for the car!

Edited December 20, 2011 by Rick

[xtremerevolution]

I found two Pioneer Amplifiers on eBay that seem...well, like a steal. Both are through a large eBay seller, which makes me believe they are bought in large quantities and refurbished. Both guarantee they work, and also have a 14day/30day return policy. Hard to find for electronics on eBay, but that eliminates any worry of DOA. The 5500T has very few reviews compared to the preceding 5400T which has numerous reviews that are exceptionally well.

 

Puts out 125Wx2 at 4ohms. 725W/820W Peak max. What do you think?

 

GM 5500T Pioneer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-GM-5500T-2-Channel-Bridgeable-Amplifier-/360419198460?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item53eaa885fc#shId

GM 5400T Pioneer http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-GM-5400T-Amplifiers-Free-Shipping-/310365485770?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item4843397aca#shId

 

Im also in-between these two speakers. The Polk DB5251 and the Infinity 5030cs. Do you see any major benefits over one or the other, because to me I see them as nearly the same.

 

Let me know what you think!

Thanks,

-Rick

 

Edit: Graphics Card just sold for $75! That was quick, not even listen for 12 hours and Buy it now was hit. Now just for all the other components to sell to further get my closer to a new audio system for the car!

 

There's never a worry of DOA with ebay. You are protected by ebay's buyer protection, and you have I think 3 weeks to file a dispute if your item is defective.

 

Those amps look great. Pioneer electronics are generally decent. Their head units are some of the best, their speakers are not so great but generally "ok", and their subs are mediocre. Their amps are good and those certainly look like a good deal. They're both CEA-2006 compliant, which means they will deliver their rated power. No gimmicks or overrating here. I think going with those is a safe bet.

 

I would go with the Polk speakers. I have heard that those particular Infinity speakers run a bit hot and I very much enjoyed my Polks for the last 4 years. Those are essentially identical and will take quite a bit of abuse. Can't stress enough though, you're going to need to seal your doors very well.

 

I snapped another photo of my door before I put it back together. I did end up covering the hole on the top left with eDead, but before I covered it, I stuffed a few layers of fiberglass insulation in there to the side of the window rail to absorb some more of the sound. Its not a lot, but it did make a bit of a difference. To seal the large hole on the right, I cut a piece of 3.5" thick fiberglass insulation and placed that over the hole to absorb and block more of the sound.

 

Shoot me a PM if you want my phone number and I can be available to answer questions when you start installing.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2011 by xtremerevolution