dkorinko Posted September 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Kevin- did you figure out what the shipping would be on the block??? And did Mike Gardern crack his block and then sell his car...has it been cracked ever since he sold it??? If it has then the seal has been holding up well...Mike got rid of the car like 3 years ago and there has been 2 owners in between mike and I. So, did he crack it??? Let me know on that shipping ASAP kevin. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Wow it didn't seem that long ago mike had the car. Depends if its a 981 crank or a TGP 981 crank. I would say $75 for the crank I had a normal 3100 crank I sold and I believe it went for about $60. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkorinko Posted September 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 It could have been less time then that...like maybe 2 years ago when mike gardner had the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkorinko Posted September 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Before we get off the subject to far- Kevin, any info on the shipping yet, and what the final cost might be to get it here and everything all said and done??? Not to be a pain in tha ass or anything but the sooner the better man. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Dane I don’t normally like to give up 40 year old secrets but you sound like your in one hell of a bind. Sorry. But being a parent and having been through the car a bike routine I can understand your parents point. Well regardless this will stop your leak. And stop it for a long time if its on a friction part like valve seats or the cylinder bore, forever if it’s a static area. It will plug a hole in a running bore. Please head what I tell you or you will never start your engine again. The racing term is water glass (don’t laugh yet guys unless you know about it) it’s powered egg whites (glycerin) you can get it over the counter at any pharmacy and it doesn’t take much 3 or 4 tablespoons depending how bad the leak is. Its cheap. If the leak is external you can watch it close up. It’s non-toxic. You can eat it but I wouldn’t suggest it. First: Get a jar of the stuff. I don’t remember the clinical term but your pharmacy will know what it is. (lethargic glycerin or something like that) Second: Make sure you have no other leaks that you could repair like with a new hose. Third. You are going to run your engine for a long time so make sure you have plenty of gas and your cooling system is full. Have a hose handy to refill and cool. I would suggest you use it without anti-freeze. Don’t know how it will react. So I would flush and refill with water first. Forth: cover everything you don’t want white spots on in case you boil over. Fenders windshield and so on. This will leave a hard spot on anything after its mixed and comes in contact with air. In fact air is the catalyst. You know what eggs do to paint! Fifth: Put about 4 tablespoons in the radiator carefully. Your best to run it without pressure( cap turned to the first notch although I will probably seal with pressure. I f your motor won’t stay cool spray the radiator with water but start the water long before it gets to hot. DO NOT SHUT THE MOTOR OFF FOR AT LEAST ½ HOUR. If you have a leak into a cylinder it will weld it together. ½ hour is far more than you should need but be on the safe side. Where ever your leak is it will now be sealed most likely forever. After you are sure the leak is repaired (drive it a day or so) flush your system thoroughly and refill with your antifreeze. I f you boil over now it won’t ruin everything with white spots. Nothing works like this but I must say it is permanent. Never had an aftermarke sealer work like this stuff. After you have done this finish school. Good luck. Any questions post or pm me. Jud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkorinko Posted September 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Wow- That actually seems pretty easy and I would be so fregin happy if i could do it right, and with your directions, I am pretty damn sure it would be an easy task. I will probably tackle it over the weekend. That way I will have plenty of time. I dont know what else to say but i really appreciate your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Who in the heck are you talking to. You have had alot of guys trying to help you out. It's neat when somebody is in trouble and these guys rally to do there best for you. Love it. You can use names on here. I was the last post but that doesen't mean you don't want to buy a block from kheider or you may want to. Thats the best route. You will have to do it some day. Why in hell did you buy this TGP knowing it had a cracked block. Just had to have a TGP. Yea I know the feeling. jud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 more like why do you have to have a VIN 'V' block? save your money and just go find a lower mileage VIN 'T' block and use thicker head gaskets. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkorinko Posted September 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Who the hell do you think I am talking to? Who else would I be talking to??? And I would rather get a V Block, and if kevin would get back to me that would be great. I dont know how you got confused there, I thought i made it pretty clear that I was going to follow the directions you gave me on how to seal the crack. And I bought the car because i got it for 2500... You cant tell me it was not a deal, the paint on it is worth 3700, it has the crossover pipe, 160 stat, top gun chip, cat back exhaust, the interior is perfect, ported heads, JE pistons, K&N filter, I would say its worth 2500...FOR SURE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 i'm not looking to get into an arguement here, and yes i do think 2500 is worth it. but i don't know why you would pay $150 on a block that has such a MINOR difference when it can easily be fixed with head gaskets that are a little thicker. i mean, you're going to replace the head gaskets anyyay right? and then the shipping costs?!?!!!! i was just trying to give a suggestion to save you money is all. but if your're set on 'V' block that's cool. another suggestion: use the quote button when replying to avoid confusion. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Before we get too far along here, do they actually make gaskets that are thicker for these motors that are readily available? Or would he need to use a shim as if to make up for a decked head. And how much would he be saving with a T block? Its a good suggestion to get a T block, but $150 I don't think is setting the world on fire. If you go to a pull it yourself yard there is a lot of work involved in getting down to a bare block, to do it all in the mud. The $150 may be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 drop the bad boy on a pallet and call grayhound or shawn lin might know a better one any ideas shawn? Sorry but I don't have all the answers. Anyway, you might talk to Jay Warfel (god910). I found him a complete TGP engine w/turbo at a local 'yard for $200 and he had a shipping company pick it up. I think shipping a complete engine was $80-ish, but you'd have to ask him to be sure. I've been thinking maybe I should have bought it for myself and just kept it in the unfinished part of my basement till I had the time to do something with it. Oh well, life is full of could-a's and should-a's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkorinko Posted September 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 i'm not looking to get into an arguement here, and yes i do think 2500 is worth it. but i don't know why you would pay $150 on a block that has such a MINOR difference when it can easily be fixed with head gaskets that are a little thicker. i mean, you're going to replace the head gaskets anyyay right? and then the shipping costs?!?!!!! i was just trying to give a suggestion to save you money is all. but if your're set on 'V' block that's cool. another suggestion: use the quote button when replying to avoid confusion. joshua I agree that I should go for the T Block but, where am i going to find one??? and like that other dude said, 150 bucks is not that bad and it might be worth it to not have to go around searching for licker head gaskets ya know??? But I am not trying to attack anyone or anything so let me know what you think. Thanks Again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaPaPooh Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 drop the bad boy on a pallet and call grayhound or shawn lin might know a better one any ideas shawn? Sorry but I don't have all the answers. Anyway, you might talk to Jay Warfel (god910). I found him a complete TGP engine w/turbo at a local 'yard for $200 and he had a shipping company pick it up. I think shipping a complete engine was $80-ish, but you'd have to ask him to be sure. I've been thinking maybe I should have bought it for myself and just kept it in the unfinished part of my basement till I had the time to do something with it. Oh well, life is full of could-a's and should-a's. oh i thought you where the one that call the shipping ect. you know!! i guess i was wrong thought i would try though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 I agree that I should go for the T Block but, where am i going to find one??? and like that other dude said, 150 bucks is not that bad and it might be worth it to not have to go around searching for licker head gaskets ya know??? But I am not trying to attack anyone or anything so let me know what you think. Thanks Again. 'T' blocks are everywhere! those engines are soooo common. i myself would search some local boneyards for a low mileage (under 75,000 or so) 3.1 MPFI engine and start with that after a good machine shop inspects it. and to be honest, i don't know for myself that thicker head gaskets are available; i'm just posting second hand info ( :oops: ) that Mick posted awhile back. but even with stock gaskets, would the jump in compression be really high? would using a shim make it more prone to head gasket failure? i'm not sure myself maybe someone else would have an idea? and no, $150 isn't a big deal at all, but IMO packing it up and shipping + the cost of shipping just don't justify the added money you're going to spend on a 'V' block. sure i'd rather have one because of the deck height, but that's the only difference and 8.8:1 compression ratio vs. 8.9:1 isn't a BIG deal.....maybe just use higher octane fuel, alcohol injection kit ( http://www.turboste.com ). or if you have some extra money go with lower compression pistons so you can crank some more boost and not be so worried about running into detonation. i myself would like to rebuild my TGP engine with 8.2:1 or so compression pistons and raise boost above 15psi. just some ideas i'm trying to throw out there.....good luck. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Sorry takes a while to load but I think it worth reading. Yea I would say its well worth 2500, sounds like the after market stuff is worth that. Now I understand why the block cracked. Let me clear up a point if I may. The deck height is the same on turbo and n/a. Do the math 8.8325 deck height, +/- a couple of thou, 1.461 piston height, 5.7 rod length and a stroke of 3.3122=.0154 piston height down in the bore at tdc. My actual measurement was .020 +/- best I could measure. The compression difference is in the heads about 26 cc for the n/a and about 28 cc for the turbo head. Our Piston cc is about 26 cc that’s the .257 dish. These chambers are extremely hard to cc even with alcohol I had trouble getting the air out. I took my n/a heads out to 30 cc which kept me about even with a .04 bore. There may be a few thou from block to block but probably manufacturing tolerances. There is a place that will make any gasket you want but as Chris said pricey $100 + ea. Felpro list a .020 solid copper shim which I considered but abandon the idea. I would think that Dane would have a lower compression with je pistons. Generally if your going to run high boost you try to get around 8-1. Dane do you know what cr is? I was thinking last night about the water glass. Having no experience with using it with anti-freeze. Duh, I think anti-freeze is about half water. Maybe somebody on here knows. If so I would try mixing a little water glass in anti-freeze. If it mixes well I would try it that way. I assume the crack is in the ring travel area. If so I would leave the water glass in. I’ll be around this weekend if you decide to go this route. Hope the above makes your choice easier. You won’t need a thick gasket. Here’s the difference in heads. You can see how much more material is in the chamber on the n/a head. Hope this sets things straight. I await the barrage. Turbo head N/A head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Wow, thanks for posting those pics SleeperRed! I can see the chambers in the heads are definitely a little different. The obvious difference that I see is around the intake valves on the side opposite of the spark plug hole. What other ways are the turbo heads different that you could see? Very educational and seems to put to rest the rumors we've all heard about the deck height being taller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 The only difference I could find is the upside down mountain peak between the intake and exhaust and very little slope around the top of the valves. The TGP head slopes away nicely from the valves obviously enshrouding them and less material in the chamber. That’s a lot of metal. It’s 2 cc’s worth, which amounts to .238 compression. Stock n/a with 26cc head compression comes out to 9.007. TGP with 28cc comes out 8.769. Adding a 020 shim to the TGP brings the compression down to 8.394. that’s why I considered using one. If there is a difference in the two blocks its no more than .010. The two that were measured was mine an a 3.1 they had in there shop they said they were within a couple thou and wrote my dimension on my receipt. The other dimensions are out of the book. I had -.020 to -.025 ( measured with calipers which is hard to do) I just wanted to make sure I had the Clarence because my rods were reconditioned which can move the hole. I used smokemup’s calculator to do the cr’s. Did one manually and they matched to 3 places. Jud Your welcome Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 no doubt, thank you very much for the pics and info. so the VIN 'V' & VIN 'T' block are the same....it's the pistons & heads that are different.....in which case i would port n/a 3.1 MPFI heads to lower the compression before hunting down TGP heads, or using a shim or thicker head gaskets. custom lower compression pistons are probably the best way tho. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 i just checked the head and block casting #'s on my TGP VIN 'V' engine: heads read: "10087511 - 3.1L". this # was taken from right behind the dipstick tube near the spark plugs. block reads: "10065459". this # was taken from the area behid the water pump. i'm only 95% sure on that # tho, since their was alot of black paint on it making it hard to read. anyone have these #'s from a n/a 3.1 MPFI? the block # is easy to read with the engine in the car, but the head # might be a little hard without a small mirror. i'm 250 miles away from my CS right now with the VIN 'T' engine in it, or else i'd post those #'s too. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 My TGP has the same casting # on the block as yours. However, my 89 Cutty 2.8 (which is the same block as the 3.1) doesn't have a casting number in that location. I just saw a small "9" and what looks like a large "8", both numbers were vertically oriented. That probably doesn't mean anything though, due to model year differences and slight casting differences. I also checked my parts catalog and engine blocks (complete with caps) are DIFFERENT p/n's between 2.8, 3.1V, and 3.1T. Of course, that doesn't mean anything either. What's strange, is although the parts catalog DOES say the 3.1V has different heads than 88-89 2.8 and 90-91 3.1T, the 3.1V and 3.1T heads were the same in 1989... or at least same p/n. That makes me wonder if the 89 3.1 na engines really have TGP style heads and lower compression than the 90-91 NA 3.1's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Joshua, No and then yes. The pistons are the same that were put in a zillion 3.1 engines. There is nothing unique about them other than they put other pistons to shame. Lots of oil return, huge pin bosses, steel skirt and full skirt. The weak point is the radii in the dish That’s where they break when you detonate. The turbo piston is the same as the n/a. Order n/a Mahle pistons and you will get 27260 pistons don’t even mention turbo they will jack the price. Yes custom pistons with a deeper dish will take care of the compression, but how deep can you go? Like I said the weak point is the radii in the dish to the distance to the bottom of the top ring groove. As for the heads good luck in finding them. I have found that there may be and I stress may be 2 part numbers 10087509 (gmpartsdirect $285 ea. I think) and 10087511 which is my p/n (no stock on gmpartsdirect). These were used on Pont 89, 90 turbo, Buick regal don’t know what model and 1989 Olds cutlass supreme don’t know what model. But if you can find these at a j/y I would grab them. My heads have not been tested that’s why I am telling you this. My engine only ran less than 10 minutes and I destroyed the cam. Don’t know why yet. I routed using a template. ground, sanded for about 1 weeks to get these n/a heads to 30 cc and like I said before these heads are a bitch to cc which took most of the time. Both of these heads turbo and n/a had been surfaced, that’s why I had to approximate the cc’s and cr’s. Was going to take .060 off the flat part of the chamber but just don’t have the tools to make a good fixture. God would I love to have a Bridgeport mill, considered buying one. That would have put me at about 8.2 cr which would have been ideal. Hope this helps. Don't know if the blocks are exact. Just know the deck hight is within .010. My numbers are the same as yours. Jud Glad you like the pic's if I have to pull my heads I’ll take pictures. Don’t know why I didn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 As for the heads good luck in finding them. I have found that there may be and I stress may be 2 part numbers 10087509 (gmpartsdirect $285 ea. I think) and 10087511 which is my p/n (no stock on gmpartsdirect). These were used on Pont 89, 90 turbo, Buick regal don’t know what model and 1989 Olds cutlass supreme don’t know what model. But if you can find these at a j/y I would grab them. My heads have not been tested that’s why I am telling you this. My engine only ran less than 10 minutes and I destroyed the cam. Don’t know why yet. I checked all my W-body parts catalogs, including my really old Pontiac one, and all of them list the TGP head as 10087509. I think the casting #10087511 isn't really related to the GM part #. GM puts 16-digit casting numbers on everything including plastic parts, but they don't match the GM p/n for ordering. Anyway, according to parts catalogs, 89 and 90 TGP uses the exact same heads as 3.1L used in 89 Cutlass, GP, and Regal. The 89 NA 3.1L was actually unique in that was the only NA 3.1L to use vacuum EGR. When they switched to Digital EGR in 1990, they also switched back to the old 2.8 heads! So it looks like you can get TGP heads out of any 89 W-body with the 3.1L. This is definitely very interesting to know, and also makes me wonder why GM used this head on the 89 3.1T rather than the 2.8 head which they already had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 You know what... I reshaped my cc like the ones on the TGP head that SleeperRed90TGp posted. I desinged it like that cuz I got the idea from racing heads how they had the same hart shape but had that nice smoth slope. Cool eh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Whew. I'm starting to wonder if I care anymore. For the longest time it was almost fact that the V block was .100 higher. Now the heads are special, but not. And the pistons were supposedly different, and aren't, no one is convinced the crank is different at all. Bout the only thing that definitely seems to make the V better is the turbo, so without the turbo its just a regular 3.1 (with 22lb injectors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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