BIG BRAKES ARE DONE

[dohc v6]

Haha, yeah I made them bullet proof. AS far as brake upgrades, anyone knows on this forum that the w-body brakes suck to all hell. They are the shittiest brakes ever. PLease dont ask me how big brakes make a car stop faster.

[blackbombshell95]

What kind of question was that? Seriously, this is for a big brake upgrade, you are getting more stopping power, but obvously adding more weight. The calipers are all aluminum, the only thing that weights more are the rotors, which in fact is not as heavy as the stock calipres and rotors.

 

M

 

More stopping Power? I've always been able to lock up my wheels with my brakes on all season performance tires. I don't know how you'd get any more stopping power from brake modifications. I was just wondering since that bracket looked unnecessarily thick. You should weigh the knuckles with everything bolted on before and after.

 

The bracket doesn't look that thick to me vs stock.

[Night Fury]

Haha, yeah I made them bullet proof. AS far as brake upgrades, anyone knows on this forum that the w-body brakes suck to all hell. They are the shittiest brakes ever. PLease dont ask me how big brakes make a car stop faster.

 

THANK YOU! Hell, the brakes on my Ciera were a MILLION times better than what I have now. And what do I have now? BRAND NEW CALIPERS, ROTORS,AND PADS ALL THE WAY AROUND!!

[mra32]

Haha, yeah I made them bullet proof. AS far as brake upgrades, anyone knows on this forum that the w-body brakes suck to all hell. They are the shittiest brakes ever. PLease dont ask me how big brakes make a car stop faster.

 

What?

 

I can lock up my tires (all 4) meaning that my brakes can surpass the maximum friction that my tires can handle. Bigger brakes will do nothing to change that. You wont stop any faster. And you really shouldnt be braking at the threshhold (even in a straight line) anyway unless you are like avoiding accidents or something.

 

What do you expect to gain from this upgrade? "More braking powarz" is rather ambiguous, and it seems like you are coming up with a solution to a non-existent problem, based on what you have said so far.

[Night Fury]

I sure as hell know I cant lock mine up. Period. I tried multiple times. Even with all new brake parts and flushed lines. They suck.

[CSI_MuNkY]

Are you bracing up that strut knuckle at all?

That knuckle is not designed to have the mounting bracket mounted to the side of it. I see that being your first point of failure. The stock mounting bracket is not only welded to the front of the housing, but the hub bolts also go through it holding it in place. The stress a 3400lb car is going to put on that face of the strut knuckle will eventually cause it to tare or bend the knuckle housing.

 

Also, just because you can lock up your stock brakes does not mean bigger brakes won't do you more good. With a higher surface area the new brakes will stop you faster. And the idea when braking is to NOT lock up your brakes. By locking up your brakes you loose the friction between the tire and the road.

 

Jamie

[dohc v6]

I know that it wont cause that strut to bend at all. The knuckle is .25 or thicker. It will not bend or tear. If you look at RSM's design they only welded 1/2 the surface area.

 

As far as the brakes not doing anything, please stop posting. You obviously dont know what you are talking about and ite pissing people off. I have gone 26 pages with no problems.

 

 

[mra32]

BIGGAR BREAKS doesn’t explain the magic friction between the tire and the road that you guys need to make you stop faster. And I already explained that you shouldn’t be locking up your tires when braking. Locking up your wheels under braking is a measure of if your brakes work or not. If you can’t lock them up, then you have problems. If you lock them up while driving, you also have problems.

 

The point of big brakes is typically not to increase the friction between the pad and the rotor either.

 

Don’t know what I’m talking about? The only thing that has been clear about your responses to my posts is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. I will reconsider that statement when you explain to me how bigger brakes will make you stop faster, which you haven’t even made an attempt to do.

 

Look, I understand that bigger brakes do have a purpose. I’m really playing the devil’s advocate and I just want you to know what the reason for bigger brakes is. Stopping your car faster is not one of them.

 

[dohc v6]

Sure, thanks for your imput. Now please stop talking, I am begging.

[GnatGoSplat]

Don’t know what I’m talking about? The only thing that has been clear about your responses to my posts is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. I will reconsider that statement when you explain to me how bigger brakes will make you stop faster, which you haven’t even made an attempt to do.

 

Bigger brakes make you stop faster because the circumference of the swept area is larger. It's simple geometry.

 

Circumference = pi * diameter.

 

Say you have tires that are 26" diameter. Circumference is 3.14*26 = 81.64".

Let's also assume you have 10" rotors. Circumference is 3.14*10=31.40".

Let's say with 10" rotors, it takes 100ft to stop. 100ft=1200in. 1200/81.64=14.70 revolutions.

 

Ok, so you want to upgrade to 13" rotors. Circumference is 3.14*13=40.82"

40.82/31.40=1.3

So 13" rotors have a circumference 1.3x larger than 10" rotors.

14.70rev/1.3=11.31revs

 

So mathematically, with larger rotors, given the SAME clamping force and friction, the wheels only need to rotate 11.31 times with 13" rotors vs 14.70 times with 10" rotors.

 

11.31revs*81.64"=923.35"

 

1200-923.35=276.65" or 23.05ft.

 

So there you have it, given nothing changed but the diameter of the rotor from 10" to 13", you have a reduction in braking distance of 23ft.

That's a very simplistic calculation since it doesn't take into effect the increase in weight of the brake hardware or any other of the dozens of variables, but simply increasing rotor diameter while keeping everything the same DOES reduce braking distance.

 

[xtremerevolution]

Are the brake pads going to be any bigger on these new calipers? If so, how will you be modifying the braking system in order to apply the same pressure over a bigger brake pad as you would over a smaller brake pad?

[slick]

What mra32 is getting at is that there is more rotating mass, which equals harder to stop.

 

What really needs to be done is weigh the stock brake setup (pads, rotors, calipers, etc...) vs. the new setup (brackets, rotors, calipers, pads, etc...).

[timg]

If you can already lock up your tires, big brakes will not help you stop any faster. In fact, if the proportioning is wrong, they will actually make things worse.

 

Big brakes can help prevent brake fade in repeated hard braking situations. They only help because they have a larger mass to absorb heat and more surface area to dissipate heat.

 

I have repeatedly experienced brake fade in my Monte Carlo and it's a scary thing. That's the #1 reason why I'm interested in the GXP brakes. If you read the reviews of the GXP, its braking performance was only average in its class. The reason isn't the brakes, it's GM's conservative choice in tire.

 

Tim

[timg]

On another note, I already have the larger 11.25" front brakes and 94+ rear discs with Powerslot rotors and Hawk HPS pads all around. My current braking setup still sucks. The swap from rear drums to discs did seem to shift the brake bias rearward.

 

Tim

[timg]

Want to know facts about brake upgrades? Check here:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml

 

Tim

[dohc v6]

Well put.

[timg]

These are TIMS, your are coming next week

 

Nice!

 

Tim

[mra32]

What I am getting at is that you CANNOT STOP FASTER THAN YOUR TIRES WILL ALLOW. I don’t care if you have 45†brakes, you wont be stopping any faster than if you had properly working 10†brakes (assuming their maximum moment is at least equal to your tire’s maximum moment. The fastest you can stop is

 

A moment, better known as a torque, is a FORCE x a RADIUS. With the same tire, a bigger diameter (or RADIUS) brake rotor will give the same moment with a smaller FORCE. We can assume that the tire’s moment remains constant since we don’t have tires that can change their own diameter or change their compounds yet. Please correct me if these are available (with link to buy some, I’d like to become a rich investor).

 

The FORCE that we are talking about on the brake moment is the friction between the brake pad and the caliper. So you can have less friction between the pad and the caliper. Friction between the pad and the rotor is a function of the coefficient of friction between the pad & rotor and the clamping force, specifically;

 

(Friction Force) = (coefficient of friction) x (clamping force)

 

I stated above that with the same moment given by the tire, your maximum brake friction force will decrease proportionally with the radius. With a coefficient of friction that does not change, this leaves a lighter clamping force. So this is it guys, this is the holy grail to guys with chicken legs who cannot impart a great enough force to lock their tires up with properly functioning brakes. Which I still don’t see being possible with vacuum assist brakes.

 

On a side note, you will always have less friction between the pad and the rotor. And as you should know, friction = heat. Coupled with the larger cooling surface of the rotor, you are going to have some pretty frigid brakes. The only person on this board who I’ve seen with brake heat issues would be BIGBULS who posted a video of his Hawk HPS brake pads on fire. I don’t even know if that was on a w-body. But this was after repeated 120-0 stops. This is similar to the braking seen in touring car races. I don’t have a touring race car and I’d laugh at myself if I put the lumina in such a situation. Autocross doesn’t even see excessive brake heat. In fact, I’m willing to go out on a limb and say that the colder brakes might even hurt you if youre not seeing these brake melting scenarios play out behind your fenders. Brake pads and rotors typically have improved frictional properties as they heat up, up until they start getting fuX0red.

 

If brake fade IS your issue (which I haven’t experienced), may I recommend a $10 dryer vent brake duct for you. Ok, youre gonna have to craft a tight shroud around the rotor, but this is a lot cheaper than new brakes

 

Also whats the difference in clamping force given the same pedal input with these calipers. This should probably please the chickenleg guys mentioned above. I’ll give you a hint, it’s a ratio of the areas of the bores of the caliper’s pistons. Theres some multiplication in there if there is a different number of pistons than stock.

 

[xtremerevolution]

Given this last post, I think I'm going to take out the regal when I get home and do some 80-0 runs and see what happens. The regal has Drilled PowerStop rotors up front, standard rotors in the back, Ceramix brake pads on the back, and Bendix CT-3 ceramic pads on the front. With that setup and the lowering job, I can still stop to the point where ABS engages on the front tires.

 

Keep in mind that the tires I'm using are also Firestone Firehawk Indy500 235/60/15's, which people have reviewed as the next best thing to slicks for street driving in regard to traction under high torque.

 

I'd love to find a place where I could test my braking distance.

 

In all honesty, I just want to see these things in action and see proof that they actually do improve braking distances, because I'm not convinced.

[timg]

Do a few 80-0's back to back. If you're anywhere near the limit, expect smoke and fading...

 

I would consider a dryer duct for cooling, but I'm not willing to cut up the front of the car anymore than it already is and I need all of the cooling I can get just for the motor and the intercooler.

 

On my S2000, ducting + stock brakes + pads + better brake fluid is the proven combo that most racers use. Virtually all of the aftermarket brakes don't work as well as stock.

 

I understand that this may well hurt braking performance, but it could also improve it. I've already swapped from rear drums to discs so I already took that chance once. I'm hoping that this adds in a bit more front bias to even out the added rear bias from the discs.

 

Tim

[z34_nut]

I guess no-ones ABS works in here.

 

Regardless, stop buying used tires, and put some real meat on there. Your brakes can only perform as well as your tires and suspension. When you have both great tires and suspension, you notice the brakes do NOT stop as they should. I will say, hands down, I have one of the best suspension set ups installed on my car with full poly mounts, fully adjustable KYB's with coils overs in the rear, and KYB GR2's up front with intrax springs, bigger sways on all corners..ect... My rotors will heat up, fade, and warp under the heavy use I endure on them. The rotors are powerstop 11.25 front, and 94 plus powerstop rears. Performance Friction pads. Whats next? Brake upgrade.

 

this car out performs my Z06 in all areas except for "badass", total speed, and brakes.

 

thank you... pass through.

[dohc v6]

I guess you have not seen my thread about the KONI's. Oh yeah they will smoth the shit out of any kyb. . But yes tire, thr driver, ABS and alot more goes into stoping your car than just brakes.

[blackbombshell95]

No abs here. Me want GXP brakes now

 

Even though they won't go on right away. I want to do a before and after testing on them.

[BXX]

Against my better judgement, I am still in... Teh GF will kill me, but 13" brakes will be worth it..

 

My stock brakes are sucking and making noise once again and a rear caliper is sticking... again.. Plus I warped my rotors again from high speed stopping.. Brake fade FTMFL...

 

No I need to re-read the past pages for the prices

[mra32]

Truth, suspension does effect braking. How could it not? Its a given. An example of this is how lowering your car will change what kind of brake bias you'd want to be running. It changes the rate of pitch your car will be experiencing (especially since you'll probably be using stiffer springs and shocks). The anti-dive is also affected. One change to a specific component will have a multitude of reverberations throughout the entire suspension and steering system.

 

But the tires have more of an effect, like if its wet out, you'd want to have more bias toward the rear than you'd want on a dry day wheras suspension will have a smaller effect on brake bias.