Wanted: A Good Oil System or Internal Engine Cleaner

[urbex]

If your oil looks clean when you drain it you've got a problem.

[ScoobyDoo82]

This thread made me facepalm on a quite a few occasions. I saw the classic "Fram is paper garbage" argument, well a lot of oil filters are paper except for the performance filters. Ive used Fram Toughguard filters on my Cavalier for the past 25,000 miles and havent had a single problem, when I tore apart my motor to do the head gaskets there was no sludge in it and the entire inside of the motor was coated in a nice caramel color. I know its so easy to bash Fram just because of their name but people never had any evidence to back up their claims. Regardless of what they're made of its good enough if you change your oil regularly. If you're so worried about oil filter quality, spend the $20 on a Mobil 1 filter and call it a day.

[brake]

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html

[xtremerevolution]

This thread made me facepalm on a quite a few occasions. I saw the classic "Fram is paper garbage" argument, well a lot of oil filters are paper except for the performance filters. Ive used Fram Toughguard filters on my Cavalier for the past 25,000 miles and havent had a single problem, when I tore apart my motor to do the head gaskets there was no sludge in it and the entire inside of the motor was coated in a nice caramel color. I know its so easy to bash Fram just because of their name but people never had any evidence to back up their claims. Regardless of what they're made of its good enough if you change your oil regularly. If you're so worried about oil filter quality, spend the $20 on a Mobil 1 filter and call it a day.

 

Since when were Mobil 1 filters $20?

 

Fram filters are not garbage because they're paper. Fram filters are garbage because they're garbage. Brake and I have both listed an article that explains how and why they're garbage. The ToughGuard filters are ok (I've used them as well), but when I have other options, I use them.

 

The problem with Fram filters is that the material is weak and can be ruptured or broken on cold starts. The valves inside are also weak. But, why should I explain it when someone has already done so. Here you go:

 

[h=4]Fram Extra Guard[/h] Years ago Fram was a quality filter manufacturer. Now their standard filter (the radioactive-orange cans) is one of the worst out there. It features cardboard end caps for the filter element that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals against the cardboard and frequently leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak all the time. The stamped-metal threaded end is weakly constructed and it has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow. I had one of these filters fail in my previous car. The filter element collapsed and bits of filter and glue were circulating through my system. The oil passage to the head became blocked and the head got so hot from oil starvation that it actually melted the vacuum lines connected to it as well as the wires near it.

 

[h=4]Fram Double Guard[/h] Another bad filter idea brought to you by your friends at Fram. The filter itself is a slightly improved design over the Fram Extra Guard, but still uses the same filter element. It has a silicone anti-drainback valve, a quality pressure relief valve, and enough inlet holes for good flow. The big problem is that they are trying to cash in on the Slick 50 craze. They impregnate the filter element with bits of Teflon like that found in Slick 50. As with Slick 50, Teflon is a solid and does not belong in an engine. It cannot get into the parts of the engine that oil can and therefore does nothing. Also, as the filter gets dirty, it ends up filtering the Teflon right out. DuPont (the manufacturer of Teflon) does not recommend Teflon for use in internal combustion engines. Please do not waste your money on this filter.

 

[h=4]Fram High Mileage[/h] Yet another bad filter idea brought to you by your friends at Fram! Gotta love these guys. It's a Fram Extra Guard with a weird goo cartridge suspended on the clean side of the filter, blocking the outlet. It's supposed to be some kind of additive package, but if you want a high mileage oil, buy a high mileage oil. I don't trust these guys...sorry.

 

What bothers me is that the Tough Guard filter isn't even a solid filter. Its an "ok" filter, which means that for the money, there are better options.

 

 

[h=4]Fram Tough Guard[/h] Even with all the problems of the other Fram filters, this one is not too bad. It has a heavier filter element with more surface area, a silicone anti-drainback valve, the cheap pressure relief valve, but with an integral screen to keep out large particles, and enough inlet holes for good flow. The only other drawback to this filter is that it is capped on each end with cardboard instead of metal. Looking in through the center outlet does not reveal any paper end caps, but they are there. I personally do not use this filter, but the design didn't have enough bad qualities to cause me to tell others to avoid it.

 

 

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html

 

Didn't I just post that?

[white4d96]

In my auto class a classmate did an oil change with a Fram filter, and the filter was blocked out of the box. First start it breached and blew about 3 quarts of oil out onto the floor.

[urbex]

I've heard horror stories from someone in the business that they would NEVER use Fram filters. I didn't say they were shitty because they were paper, you did.

[brake]

Yes you did post it. I just pasted it in the wrong place

[gr8shot]

The problem with that article is that its all subjective. Its a person stating their opinion on the filter, there isn't any data to back up the claims. Nothing to PROVE its a cheap ADB valve, nothing to PROVE its a weak bypass valve. Just the authors opinion. And OF COURSE the end caps are held on by glue. Have you ever seen an endcap held on by anything else? Its always some form of adhesive. Duh. Its all the author's opinion that the baseplate is weak or wont flow as well. I didn't see any flow numbers to back it up. Pleat count doesn't mean anything. The media is what's important. And as far as I'm concerned, while the author does seem marginally educated about filters, all he does is give an in depth description of each filter and offer an opinion on a piece here or there. The filters he describes as poor might perform the best. But by his descriptions you'd never know. I sure hope nobody uses this article as their bible as it offers exactly zero performance data.

 

The thing you guys forget is that mfr's aren't allowed to put out complete junk that's destined to instantly fail. They have to test their filters to the same ISO, astm etc standards as every other filter on the market. If their cardboard end caps were so bad they'd fail all the tests and wouldn't ever make it to market. Every mfr tests their filters to way way way WAY more severe conditions than are ever seen in real life.

 

There has to be a cheapest filter. No way around that. The fram is cheap and it does the job. Is it the best? No but it works.

 

I work for Baldwin filters as an industrial engineer so it's safe to say I've seen a filter or two be made

 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[ptcfast2]

When dealing with an engine such as the OP's you don't want to be using a Fram filter....NOT WHEN BETTER OPTIONS EXIST. I'm not saying Fram is garbage (nor have I downplayed them at all in this thread) but it's been proven again and again the filter designs utilized aren't as good as the competition in numerous aspects.

 

The folks at Bob The Oil Guy talk time and time again about filter quality and I've seen diagrams, cutaways, and had firsthand experience with engines utilizing Fram filters. They aren't the worst, but when something like a Puralator PureOne or Bosch or Delco is readily available for just a few bucks more it makes no sense to skimp! Oil is the blood and life of your engine - don't contaminate it and keep it as clean as possible. A good oil and good filter will do just that for you.

 

Regardless, this isn't a filter discussion threadr. We don't need to hijack it with the classic Fram argument.

[xtremerevolution]

The problem with that article is that its all subjective. Its a person stating their opinion on the filter, there isn't any data to back up the claims. Nothing to PROVE its a cheap ADB valve, nothing to PROVE its a weak bypass valve. Just the authors opinion. And OF COURSE the end caps are held on by glue. Have you ever seen an endcap held on by anything else? Its always some form of adhesive. Duh. Its all the author's opinion that the baseplate is weak or wont flow as well. I didn't see any flow numbers to back it up. Pleat count doesn't mean anything. The media is what's important. And as far as I'm concerned, while the author does seem marginally educated about filters, all he does is give an in depth description of each filter and offer an opinion on a piece here or there. The filters he describes as poor might perform the best. But by his descriptions you'd never know. I sure hope nobody uses this article as their bible as it offers exactly zero performance data.

 

The thing you guys forget is that mfr's aren't allowed to put out complete junk that's destined to instantly fail. They have to test their filters to the same ISO, astm etc standards as every other filter on the market. If their cardboard end caps were so bad they'd fail all the tests and wouldn't ever make it to market. Every mfr tests their filters to way way way WAY more severe conditions than are ever seen in real life.

 

There has to be a cheapest filter. No way around that. The fram is cheap and it does the job. Is it the best? No but it works.

 

I work for Baldwin filters as an industrial engineer so it's safe to say I've seen a filter or two be made

 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

 

The fact is that this guy doesn't just put up opinions. He actually took apart dozens of filters, analyzed each of them, and provided the results. He posted a page for his opinions, and then posted ones for his recommendations. Whether or not you want to take his advice is your own choice, but his findings have been consistent with the issues reported with these filters elsewhere.

 

One thing you don't seem realize is that manufactures ARE allowed to put out things that are complete junk, because people buy it. Duracrap suspension parts ring a bell? GM factory tie rods on newer models that are guaranteed to fail within 50k? Chinese made wheel hub bearings that destroy themselves within 20k miles? Do you seriously believe that every company out there adheres to a strict code of ethics and quality manufactuering? I'd love to live in that fantasy land.

 

The Fram filters are cheap and do the job *most of the time.* Its that couple of times where there's a failure (and they have been reported), that you're out thousands of dollars because you were too cheap to spend the extra $2-3 per oil change on a filter that doesn't have a known tendency to fail.

 

If you don't beleive me, learn to use google. Search for "fram filter failure."

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=fram+filter+failure&oq=fram+filter+failure&aq=f&aqi=g1g-b1&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=265l2609l0l2703l19l14l0l4l4l0l281l1047l2.4.1l7l0

 

I'm not going to risk destroying my engine over a $3 filter, not when the Purolator and Wix filters are only a buck or two more.

[xtremerevolution]

When dealing with an engine such as the OP's you don't want to be using a Fram filter....NOT WHEN BETTER OPTIONS EXIST. I'm not saying Fram is garbage (nor have I downplayed them at all in this thread) but it's been proven again and again the filter designs utilized aren't as good as the competition in numerous aspects.

 

The folks at Bob The Oil Guy talk time and time again about filter quality and I've seen diagrams, cutaways, and had firsthand experience with engines utilizing Fram filters. They aren't the worst, but when something like a Puralator PureOne or Bosch or Delco is readily available for just a few bucks more it makes no sense to skimp! Oil is the blood and life of your engine - don't contaminate it and keep it as clean as possible. A good oil and good filter will do just that for you.

 

Regardless, this isn't a filter discussion thread. We don't need to hijack it with the classic Fram argument.

 

What he said. All it takes is ONE filter failure to destroy your engine. The repair costs can be quite severe. If all I have to pay is $2 more per 3000 miles (or $12 a year) for that peace of mind, you better bet I'll pay it.

[White93z34]

Lets not let this go down the road to a full out oil filter debate we've been there plenty of times already, the information is out there and available to anyone with access to Google, if they choose to ignore it then that is their choice.

[gr8shot]

The fact is that this guy doesn't just put up opinions. He actually took apart dozens of filters, analyzed each of them, and provided the results. He posted a page for his opinions, and then posted ones for his recommendations. Whether or not you want to take his advice is your own choice, but his findings have been consistent with the issues reported with these filters elsewhere.

 

All he did was take them apart and provide his opinion on how they were constructed and how he felt they'd perform. There isn't any data to back up his opinions. He just assumes how each filter will perform. There's nothing scientific about it at all. He doesn't even list their nominal and absolute filtration ratings or the filters capacity. That's how I choose a filter, not by someone's opinion on how its made.

 

I'm not arguing with anyone that fram's filters are less than desireable. Do I use them? Of course not. I work for Baldwin. Take a guess what filters I run lol.

 

The point I was trying to make is that his whole website is about the construction of the filter and how HE FEELS it will affect performance.

 

There isn't any data to back up his claims, which makes them just that, claims. That's all I'm saying.

 

/sorry for the off topic.

 

 

 

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[90V6RedHotLuminaEuro]

...sorry for the off topic.

 

 

I don't think it's "off topic"... it's totally interesting and related to the questions regarding the oil system, and the cleanliness of the internals of an engine... I do want to clean up the guts of my engine... and keep it clean with the best available that I can also afford... I don't want to use filters with high known failure numbers... I've already had the sad experience of a wrecked 3.1... I want to improve the health of the one I have and try to keep it alive forever.

 

I for one greatly appreciate all for taking the time to provide all the info and debate provided here.

 

John B.

[Mel87]

I have to ask...what is the magnet for?

 

Any metal flakes that come off the engine internerly will be caught on it and not go back in the engine.

[xtremerevolution]

I don't think it's "off topic"... it's totally interesting and related to the questions regarding the oil system, and the cleanliness of the internals of an engine... I do want to clean up the guts of my engine... and keep it clean with the best available that I can also afford... I don't want to use filters with high known failure numbers... I've already had the sad experience of a wrecked 3.1... I want to improve the health of the one I have and try to keep it alive forever.

 

I for one greatly appreciate all for taking the time to provide all the info and debate provided here.

 

John B.

 

Well, I provided you my opinion.

 

Its the same potential problem as when people used to do transmission flushes. It would be messy and dirty in there from the filter having not been changed for a while or whatever else. They'd take it to a shop, have them pressure flush the transmission fluid, and that would dislodge gunk from either the filter or elsewhere and create blockages or constriction points in the valve body, creating epic problems with their transmissions.

 

The story is the same. Your oil is made with detergents so it that it holds contaminants so they don't get deposited. Your engine is filthy because someone either didn't change their oil regularly, or they used really cheap oil that didn't have quality detergents. If you suddenly dislodge all of the gunk that's deposited around your engine, take a few guesses where its going to go? The oil can only hold so much. It will travel around, and possibly get deposited in your valve lifters, oil passages, and who knows where else. What's more is that your oil filter will get clogged up really fast, and the bypass valve will be opened.

 

All in all, if the engine is running fine, make it a slow and gradual process. Use quality oil, and perhaps a slight bit of "engine cleaner" every normal oil change over the course of a few oil changes. I just don't see this ending well if you try a force cleaning all of a sudden.

[ptcfast2]

I for one greatly appreciate all for taking the time to provide all the info and debate provided here.

 

Well hopefully you follow what I told you in the guide I wrote (you said you liked it from what I recalled). Slow and steady winds the race with this engine.

[90V6RedHotLuminaEuro]

I was just going to say... I guess "slow and steady wins the race"

 

Thanks,

 

John B.

[Schurkey]

Perfect opportunity to try out an asswipe oil filter. Will remove microscopic particles from oil. Even so, if you dissolve deposits quickly you're going to run a lot of crap through the bearings and lifters.

 

These used to be popular with fleets and taxi companies; and various crazy people...like me. The Frantz filters like mine are still sold by http://www.wefilterit.com and somewhat similar bypass filters are available from Amsoil.

 

This one is installed on my boat. Steel housing holds a roll of toilet paper. Small diameter hoses provide a constant--but low-volume--supply of oil through the filter. There are various adapters for T-ing into the oil port for the pressure sending unit; and returning through a hole in the oil pan, or through a hole in the oil fill cap, or into a hole in the valve cover.

 

The only real problem aside from finding a mounting location is that newer asswipe rolls won't fit in the canister; the thing is set up for the old rolls with more sheets and less fluff--more like commercial asswipe. What was common in the fifties and sixties, got phased out by "Squeezably soft".

 

[Mach 5]

I use about 1 quart of trans fluid after an intake or head gasket change. the detergent in the oil helps get the sludge out. Ill run the motor for a while then drain the fill it with regular oil and tell customer to come back in 1000miles then normal changes after that.

[xtremerevolution]

I use about 1 quart of trans fluid after an intake or head gasket change. the detergent in the oil helps get the sludge out. Ill run the motor for a while then drain the fill it with regular oil and tell customer to come back in 1000miles then normal changes after that.

 

Interesting concept. I know a 50/50 mixture of acetone and ATF acts as an excellent penetrating lubricant. I wonder if the ATF has a higher detergent capacity that may help with part of that.