Brake upgrade idea....Fabricaters?

[lakefxgp96]

I might have a really simple solution to upgrading W-body brakes that I think could be quite an easy way to make money! If nobody wants to take this idea and run with it, cool, im going to try and pursue it.

 

 

Heres the plan, Make an adapter to install our Front rotors and calipers to the rear of the car. Passenger side goes to to drivers side and drivers to passengers, this will make the brakes bleed properly and function the same way they do now without being up-side down.

 

For the fronts, make an adpater to fit 12" upgrade calipers for Gen II W-bodies. or perhaps 13" vette calipers or another more inexpensive canidate?

 

Doing it this way will result in immensly improved dual piston rear calipers and vented disks, as well as whatever is used for the fronts. At the same time, cost will be reduced and only 2 brake line adapters AT MOST will be required! I would guess it would result in about $150 in final cost of cut alluminum, plus the cost of the calipers which could probably be had from somewhere like autozone or campbell's etc if an OEM style of some sort is used and adapted.

 

Thoughts, Suggestions for front rotors?

 

Also, does anyone happen to know the size of front rotors from a particular GM car at 11.5" or larger?

[slick]

It's been done. If I remember right, the rear brakes would lock up with very little push of the pedal, and the front brakes weren't hardly being used. The proportioning is all wrong.

 

Like, for example, normally a car uses like 70% front brakes, 30% rear. Well... In the case you described, and in the guys case that did it, it was more like 40% front, 60% rear.

[94CutlassSLCoupe]

Our front calipers are too large for the rear...Not only will it be super tail happy, but the pedal will be spongy, not to mension you would have to use vented rotors on the rear, because if you used them with the stock thickness rotors, the pistons would most likely pop out of the caliper. If you want larger rear calipers i suggest using something only slightly larger such as the rear calipers from a '98-'04 Blazer or S-10 Pickup.

 

In fact, the front calipers from the Blazer/s-10 are pretty nice pieces too. They are still twin piston and i believe they are also alumnium.

 

I don't believe the stock W-body MC can provide an adequate amount of fluid for much larger piston sizes in the caliper and still provide enough pressure.

[slick]

Or... an even better upgrade, and has been done-

 

 

dun dun dun dun

 

 

 

C5 rear brakes

[94CutlassSLCoupe]

also, you would have to find some way to retain the parking brake function...whether that be racheting calipers like the stock ones or a Drum-In-Hat Setup.

 

I also believe the front rotors that are already on the '95.5-97 1st gens and the gen 1.5's are over 11", probably closer to 11.5"

[lakefxgp96]

Proportioning valve would have to be required. Not hard to do.

 

I can't think of a single brake upgrade that ever required a better master cylander. Its not a question of pressure at all, the larger the brakes, the less pressure is required to stop or lock up the brakes. Think about it.

[lakefxgp96]

also, you would have to find some way to retain the parking brake function...whether that be racheting calipers like the stock ones or a Drum-In-Hat Setup.

 

Not absolutely required, not even worrying about that.

 

I also believe the front rotors that are already on the '95.5-97 1st gens and the gen 1.5's are over 11", probably closer to 11.5"

 

11.25"

[lakefxgp96]

Just FYI. Im going for CHEAP brake upgrade.

 

C5 rear brakes? how many poeple have that? I have heard of them, and I knew RSM sold them, but who has actually put that much money into it and what did they do for fronts?

 

BAER upgrades typically cost anywhere from 700 to $1400. Im looking for $500 tops.

[slick]

Personally... I would just find a nice set of rear calipers out of another car vehicle, and go with that.

 

Machining the adapter should be pretty much cakework, as GM likes to make most of the parts universal (i think i just read somewhere like a day or two ago that the f-body's brakes are very similar to the 00-ish monte's and impala's, and the n-body front knuckles will direct swap into a j-body i believe).

 

I say go for it. And.... If it really works, sign me up.

[94CutlassSLCoupe]

the amount of fluid required to move two pistons (or one larger piston) an equal distance as a stock caliper is greater. Its called fluid displacement. The more fluid is consumed, the harder it will be for the Master Cylinder to provide enough pressure, therefore increasing pedal stroke.

 

It may seem like that, but that is because pressure required is decreased due to the greater surface area of the pad

 

If we were doing a drum to disk swap, you would most definately need a different master cylinder.

[lakefxgp96]

Personally... I would just find a nice set of rear calipers out of another car vehicle, and go with that.

 

Machining the adapter should be pretty much cakework, as GM likes to make most of the parts universal (i think i just read somewhere like a day or two ago that the f-body's brakes are very similar to the 00-ish monte's and impala's, and the n-body front knuckles will direct swap into a j-body i believe).

 

I say go for it. And.... If it really works, sign me up.

 

 

The rears on the 94+ on lumina are pretty decent. I already swapped the lumina up to them. As far as my GP, im running stock 10.9" s in the rear, and 11.25" in the front. Thats factory. What if you could get a 12" front brake upgrade, and move the 11.25" vented dual piston to the back? or on a pre-95.5 this would be 10.5" vented/dual piston to the rear and 12" up front, since the use the same caliper bolt locations every year, either setup would work the same way, which means only one kit is required for all 88-96's. The propotioning valve would have to be available i think for each the ABS and non ABS though.

[GnatGoSplat]

It has been done, and it didn't work out at all. A guy wasted some good rear knuckles performing the mod, only to find out the rear brakes locked up too easily. I think he even tried different modulators, master cylinder, etc only to decide to scrap the project and convert to 94-96 rear brakes.

 

You do NOT want overpowered rear brakes.

 

C5 rear brakes? how many poeple have that? I have heard of them, and I knew RSM sold them, but who has actually put that much money into it and what did they do for fronts?

 

I've never heard of anyone using C5 rear brakes, but that's the direction I would go. They have the separate drum park brake, and the disc is vented. I believe it's 12".

 

The high-dollar RSM kit actually used C4 brakes, not C5.

 

C5 brake parts are very cheap. The parts by themselves will fit within your budget. The fabrication is the hard part. From an auto parts store, you can get generic C5 front rotors for around $30-ish, Z06 front calipers for less than $100/each. Rear should be even cheaper.

 

I want to do a full C5 brake upgrade, but don't have the time and skill to do the necessary fabrication.

[slick]

It was one of the beretta guys that did it, and he had to start out with rear drums, not rear disks.

 

Like Shawn said, I guarantee for $500 tops, you could convert to rear C5 calipers, pads, and rotors. And, like Shawn said, the hardest part will probably be the fabrication(which to me, really doesn't seem all that bad).

 

I think the biggest thing will be that you *might* have to drill your own holes into the rotors so they will fit our lug patter, but thats not that big of an issue.

[GnatGoSplat]

I think the biggest thing will be that you *might* have to drill your own holes into the rotors so they will fit our lug patter, but thats not that big of an issue.

 

Yeah, that's worst-case scenario, but considering the bolt pattern is only 1/4" off (approx), that means it would probably work just to take a grinding cone or something similar and elongate the holes in the rotor 1/8" towards the center. Then they should fit fine. The center bore is the same, so the rotor will be hubcentric and won't go anywhere.

 

I've been thinking about getting some C5 brake parts, making lots of measurements, and designing a prototype bracket of some kind in AutoCAD and see if I can talk someone into making it. I can't even figure out AutoCAD though!!!

[Pabz]

Gnat,

 

I thought you were pretty happy with the front 96+ brake and 94+ rear upgrade?

[GnatGoSplat]

It's okay, but C5 hardware is definitely better. I often upgrade stuff not out of necessity, but just because better is better.

[slick]

I think the biggest thing will be that you *might* have to drill your own holes into the rotors so they will fit our lug patter, but thats not that big of an issue.

 

Yeah, that's worst-case scenario, but considering the bolt pattern is only 1/4" off (approx), that means it would probably work just to take a grinding cone or something similar and elongate the holes in the rotor 1/8" towards the center. Then they should fit fine. The center bore is the same, so the rotor will be hubcentric and won't go anywhere.

 

I've been thinking about getting some C5 brake parts, making lots of measurements, and designing a prototype bracket of some kind in AutoCAD and see if I can talk someone into making it. I can't even figure out AutoCAD though!!!

 

I personally would just drill new holes, as elongating holes structurally doesn't sound the best to me.

 

As for not being able to figure out CAD, I have '04 loaded on this computer here at my house. Just give me some dimensions and some rough sketches, and i'll draw you up something.

[GnatGoSplat]

I personally would just drill new holes, as elongating holes structurally doesn't sound the best to me.

 

How much would you guess a machine shop would charge to drill new holes? I really don't see how elongating the holes would change anything structurally though, but I'm no mechanical engineer.

 

As for not being able to figure out CAD, I have '04 loaded on this computer here at my house. Just give me some dimensions and some rough sketches, and i'll draw you up something.

 

Sounds like a plan, I'll have to gather some parts first to make measurements.

[slick]

Well... You COULD have them done on a CNC at a machine shop, but I could guarantee that it would cost you damn near how much it would cost just for a set of calipers(machine time, tool wear and tear, man time, overhead, etc....).

 

But... If you have a drill press at your home, or know a friend with one, he could easily do them. All it would take is a little geometry, and a few hours.

[lakefxgp96]

It has been done, and it didn't work out at all. A guy wasted some good rear knuckles performing the mod, only to find out the rear brakes locked up too easily. I think he even tried different modulators, master cylinder, etc only to decide to scrap the project and convert to 94-96 rear brakes.

 

You do NOT want overpowered rear brakes.

 

 

Im not sure why that would be the case. If you have a proportioning valve for one, and secondly, bigger front brakes than rears, why would this even happen? Yes overpowered rears are bad...but the thing to figure out is how to turn down the power so that they become an easy way to stop frequently without brake fade and warping like our rear calipers are prone to do. A proportioning valve should have solved this so starting to consider trying this myself anyway. Getting the rears to work in back should be the easy part, getting larger breaks up front should be the hard part.

[GnatGoSplat]

But... If you have a drill press at your home, or know a friend with one, he could easily do them. All it would take is a little geometry, and a few hours.

 

Yeah, but I don't really feel like a drill press will get the accuracy needed to really give much of an advantage over elongating the existing holes. In my head, I feel like the primary advantage of redrilling for the different bolt pattern is that if it's accurate enough, should the braking forces cause the rotor to push against the lugs, each lug sees an equal force. If a drill press is off even a fraction of a millimeter, then the lugs don't see an equal force. This is even assuming it's at all possible for the rotor to overcome the clamping force of the wheel.

 

It has been done, and it didn't work out at all. A guy wasted some good rear knuckles performing the mod, only to find out the rear brakes locked up too easily. I think he even tried different modulators, master cylinder, etc only to decide to scrap the project and convert to 94-96 rear brakes.

 

You do NOT want overpowered rear brakes.

 

 

Im not sure why that would be the case. If you have a proportioning valve for one, and secondly, bigger front brakes than rears, why would this even happen? Yes overpowered rears are bad...but the thing to figure out is how to turn down the power so that they become an easy way to stop frequently without brake fade and warping like our rear calipers are prone to do. A proportioning valve should have solved this so starting to consider trying this myself anyway. Getting the rears to work in back should be the easy part, getting larger breaks up front should be the hard part.

 

Proportioning valve!!! That's what I was trying to think of when I wrote "modulators", I sat there for a long time trying to think of what it's called.

 

Anyway, yeah, the guy tried different proportioning valves out of different cars, even tried an outboard one (since the one in W's is installed into the MC). Apparently there's no easy way to turn the power down enough.

[lakefxgp96]

Anyway, yeah, the guy tried different proportioning valves out of different cars, even tried an outboard one (since the one in W's is installed into the MC). Apparently there's no easy way to turn the power down enough.

 

thats really odd. I'm def wanting to figure this out! do you know if he had ABS or not?

[GnatGoSplat]

Nope, he didn't have ABS. He had a 90 or 91 Lumina I think.

But if your ABS has to kick in all the time, that will greatly increase your braking distance.

 

I think the main problem is there's just too much piston surface on a front caliper compared to a rear. The greater the piston surface, the greater the force.

[Jcrow]

What is bolt pattern on vetts? how about 1990 era vetts?

 

About the guy that upgraded drums to discs on the beretta - Drum brakes require more fluid/pressure when you initially step on the brakes - they have more distance to travel before the shoe contacts the drum, than calipers do on rotors.

So I would think upgrading from disc to disc would be much easier. To fine tune the setup they sell adjustable proportioning valves.

 

If anyone has AutoCad questions feel free to ask

[LukeZ34]

Has anyone looked in to the 2006 Impala or Monte Carlo brakes?

We've got 5 2006 Impalas at work, and the brakes on those cars are AMAZING! Best brakes I have ever experienced in a W-body. It takes very little effort at all to put yourself through the windshield.. no joke.

I'd be curious if any of those parts could be adapted to fit our cars.