god910 Posted December 17, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Cool so with a N/A S2 Block I can do as I asked in intial post right? Since I have a bent rod get rotating mass from a L67 and I am good to go for 35 psi right. (That is obviously a joke.) My block in N/A so no plugging of injector bungs. Eclipse I think you should install the 60 and give me the manual. Or sell it whatever. LOL. (Changed oil at Wal-Mart for 2 years, saw only TWO manual w-body's. Ain't that some $|-| ! + Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Not sure what I'm going to do yet. If I put the manual back in to the Cutlass, I'll need a 3800 flywheel. But to work in the HM-282, it will need to be grinded down. Don't know yet, everything is still up in the air on this project. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Cool so with a N/A S2 Block I can do as I asked in intial post right? Since I have a bent rod get rotating mass from a L67 and I am good to go for 35 psi right. (That is obviously a joke.) My block in N/A so no plugging of injector bungs. Eclipse I think you should install the 60 and give me the manual. Or sell it whatever. LOL. (Changed oil at Wal-Mart for 2 years, saw only TWO manual w-body's. Ain't that some $|-| ! + Yep. I don't see anything wrong with that. A turbo Series II should make quite a bit more power than an L67. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpse3200 Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Ok. That 3800 crank is split pin. You all want to know why. Well since that motor came from V8 it didn't fire smoothly, big soft mushy motor mounts were used but it wasn't enough. The original crank used to look like the SB Chevy crank which isn't split pin in the slightest. To make the 3.8 fire evenly they had to splay the rod journal or pins as it were. THAT CREATES A WEAKER CRANK known as the EVEN FIRE. The ODD FIRE wouldv'e been stronger but was susceptible to the rough and wako IGN timing. The 60 Deg V6 has indivdual rod journals, not connected to each other. What separates those journals is either a counter weight, reluctor, or on the IRON headed motor just your ususal connection point between throws like an SB chevy crank. In fact the 60 deg v6's journals, rod and main are about as big if not the metric size as an SB Chevy, so thats durabilty right there. The pins on the 3800 are not separated for the most part by those listed. LOOK AT THE 3.8 CRANK! THE JOURNALS ARE NOT SEPARATED, ALL YOU SEE IS A FLANGE FOR THE CONNECTING ROD AND THAT IS MADE ONLY DUE TO THE SHEARING OF THE THROWS(flyingweb)! THE 60 DEG HAS INDIVIDUAL THROWS FOR EVERY ROD! THE V8 SHARES ROD JOURNALS BUT THE THOWS AREN'T SEPARATED!! Also don't confuse the main bearing journals either. The throws on the 3800 are initally one together like a V8, but when the crank is made in the casting process they shear the throws to get that split pin setup all because this particular 90 deg v6 is based off a v8 and for a more normal firing, you can't just use a chopped crank, you have to split it. With that creates a weakness and alignment issues, god forbid if a rod becomes off center for a hot instant, either through bearing wear, hot rodding or whatever, you can say goodbye to that bottom end. With this setup there is absolutely no tolerance for misalignment esspcially at cylinders #1 and 2, that long front snount doesn't help that situation. The 4.3 is split the same way, but they didn't splay the pins as much to be a true even fire, thus Chevy's crank is a lot stronger. Instead they took a balance between vibration and reliablilty and they got a strong, similarly smooth motor all by knocking out cylinders #3 and #6 making 62% less vibration than your 3 pin odd fire 90 deg v6. I'd love to see that motor in a car with vortec v8 style heads. I don't know what GM did to the turbo 3.8 motor But I'll trust that one much more than the others. I'm sure GM went to great measures to make that motor strong enough to handle all that forced induction. But even with the even fire crank, the motions are still not soft enough, thus the balance shaft is used. All of this just to clear the air:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZMonte Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 I do not recommend using the 3800. Yes it is a pushrod motor, but it is not a 60*. It is a 90*, and there are some issues with it. you run the risk of blowing it up for starters. The SC gets a re-inforced block, but the NA does not. Also, it does not have a regular piston/connecting rod/crank setup. It is a split pin setup (that I personally do not like). Basically, what that is, is instead of having 1 connecting rod to every lobe in the crank, with a total of 6 lobes, there are only 3 lobes, and the connecting rods share. 2 rods to every lobe. With that setup, you run the risk of them catching just righ, and throwing a rod, meaning, one of the pistons is going to come out to say hello. I recommend going with a 60* motor for a turbo setup, or if you just ABSOLUTLY have to have a 3800, then try to get the SC one. At least it has a stronger block. Taylor the block is physically the same.. the internals on a L67 are stronger but not so magicly stronger that it won't blow up under high ammounts of boost as well. L36's with the ZZP S/C are holding up fine. I say rebuild it.. if you have access to the L67 internals then put them in.. if not then don't worry about it. sence its apart allready i also say do a cam. as for the PCM it will understand the boost. but you will proibly need to get a 2 bar map sensor. Post on Clubgp about it they will tell you what you can/need to do with it. redZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 I don't know what GM did to the turbo 3.8 motor But I'll trust that one much more than the others. The Turbo 3.8 motor is a split pin design as well. The 90-degree 3.8L has been split pin since 1977. The 3800 has only seen improvements in its design since the Turbo 3.8L of '87 as well. The Series I improved upon the 3.8L, the Series II improved upon the Series I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpse3200 Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 I belive I now remember what they did to the turbo motor......most of it was FORGED almost completely and was heavy as if it couldn't get any heavier....Like I said..if I were to go with this wacky design I'd be pumping the Turbo engine because even though it is not as strong as other simliarly powered engines, but at least most of its parts were forged and that took care of the the reliability issues at higher power with the GN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90 6000se awd Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Ok let me see I have both a 60* 3.1 crank and a 90* 3800 crank in front of me and both have split rod journals the term split pin is old school talk and a common mistake is to assume the split journal cranks are weak. kenny dutwiller runs a 3.8 turbo with split journals at over 900Hp. the difference between a 60* and a 90* crank that I can see is the journal size the 90* is quite a bit bigger, but the stroke is a lot longer, leading me to believe the 60* will rev better just my $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Which is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 I know from browsing many a Sy_Ty (the 4.3 engine referred to earlier) forum that when they upgrade the crank they go to a odd-fire shared? pin crank for strength. For the turbo, I'd go and find a L36 and put the L67 rotating mass in (if you get a L67 then you have to swap off the heads and intake for L36 ones cause of the M90). I am fairly certain that the above engine will run with OBD1 3800 series 1 ECM and wiring; this way you get rid of the PITA OBD2 and the wiring should be a lot easier and cheaper (as well as tuning). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted January 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 How sure are we about the motor running off of a Series 1 ECM. I have a S1 ECM and harness and series II L36 and am getting a L67 rotating mass. (As explained earlier) If that would work it would make this swap alot easier. P.S. I have a SII with both MAP and MAF. Can I kill the map and use a SI ECM or did they have an S1 w/ both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Series I ECM on a Series II has been done by Terry Kelly who was on the GM-ECM list awhile back (I'm no longer on it so I don't know if he is or not). So, it has been done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Oops, I only skimmed the thread before posting. As far as I know they are the same engine and use the same sensors. Of course the s2 would have twice the number of sensors but that is only cause OBD2 is a pain in the ass. I would try to find MAP only. MAF is good for s/c, but for turbo the MAP is better. I was thinking that Tom's friend (white Fiero with l67) was using a s1 ecm, but don't quote me on it. I am betting that it is backwards compatible (like 3100 running off a 3.1 ecm). And I have heard of a turbo l67 in a Fiero (Chris West) and all i could get out of him about the car was "too damn fast". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBuick Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Why not just use a series 1 3800 alltogether. It is built just as heavy if not heavier than the series 2 N/A. While the heads in stock form wont flow as well, they can easily be worked to. Plus with the series 1 you have a much much better intake manifold design that doesnt crack and leak coolant, and is alloy so you can port it or extrude hone it. the local turbo Buick guy told me he wouldn't even think twice about using a series 1 over a series 2 for turbocharging purposes. -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 I'll second that. That L36 with that intake sounds like a real disappointment and may only be worse with a turbo feeding it. I dont know about the rotating mass of the L67 advantages but it is tougher . Theres a guy doing a TC for a Hbody and hes built a mean L67 as well so he know the motors. He chose a L67 block with series I heads for turbo. Dont remember the specifics and the post is long gone. Its a big project he's doing so its no bolt up simple thing. I have long forgot where I read the artical so I dont have a link but someone built a old FWD 3.8 up to 500 horse and insane RPM's before it grenaded so I would think you'd be good with a Series I engine and some manifold head work. But then you have this L36 already right. If it has a bent rod its most likely from http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1245 Mostly read the first few posts but the second guy mentions the hydro locking of the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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