RJansen658 Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Yes I know there is another thread about a 3100 with lifter noise, I didn't want to invade his thread. So heres the problem. A friend of mine just bought a 94' GP. Paid $250. It has a 3100, it runs and drives but has lifter noise. I pulled the dipstick and it had chocolate milk for oil about 2 qts too high, low low coolant. Typical sign of a bad LIM Gasket. Its just that I've never seen a car with a bad LIM Gasket have lifter noise, I'm wondering if perhaps it is because the oil is so thinned with water. Has anybody else encoutered a bad LIM Gasket accompanied by lifter noise? And did it go away after the gasket was repaired? Gasket is gonna take me about 6 hrs, but I don't wanna tear it apart again to put in new lifters..... It is one of the early design 3100's, without the pushrod guide's in the gasket, without the fancy rocker arms. Maybe run a motor flush, and some treatment in the oil? The owner is kinda broke, and its for her daughter.... when I get the car to my house I will post some pics, Its Torch Red with B4U....HOT CAR.... one of the cleanest GP's I've seen around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych0matt Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 i think provided it hasnt sat still for too long that you should be ok, run a flush and then some lucas or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Well, the report is, is was a DD, owner heard lifter tick, took it for oil change, oil change guy poited out milky oil but still changed oil, oil milky next day, sell car lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandAmSE Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Does it go away after warm up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Are you sure it's "lifter tick" and not coming from the bottom end? Coolant mixed w/ oil can lead to trashed bearings just so you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Yes I am positive it is lifter noise, I didn't run it long enough to let it warm up, but judging from how loud it is I will say no, it likely does not go away after warm up. It is not so loud or hard that it sounds like the engine is gonna explode, it still runs strong, just a lot of lifter noise. I can't see oil/coolant sludge as being adequate lubrication for the valve train, but I really don't know the cars history, so I am unsure how long it has been in this state... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SigEpCutlass Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Are you sure it's "lifter tick" and not coming from the bottom end? Coolant mixed w/ oil can lead to trashed bearings just so you know. Unfortunately, he's right. If the car has been run for a while in that condition, the engine might be about to spin a bearing and then eventually sieze. I'd park that car and deal with it immediately before it is driven again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 yeah it's tough to say how long it was driven like that. It could be just the lifters, it could be more, and there's no guarantee it'll go away after the LIM job. I would change the gaskets, change the oil, run the new oil for a short period of time, re-change it, and see how it is. You don't want to put new lifters in ($$$) and have that not be the problem. Depending on how bad the oil buildup is you may want to run an oil system flush before letting it go to the owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Whats most likely happening is the coolant is resting on top of the lifters, causing them to lose their lubrication, and it will go away after the engine circulates oil, but in this case I would suggest replacing all 12 of them. If the coolant leak is that bad, milky oil after 1 day, then there is most likely an issue with those lifters being corroded, and even after they are oiled properly and no coolant leak, they will still tick and slap. If you decide to keep, do the head gaskets as well, and replace the lifters. Otherwise you may be doing this twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Either way, Id replace the LIM ASAP before your engine decides its had enough. When you have it apart, replace the lifters, like R Dubya said. 12 lifters are alot cheaper than a new engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Ok guys... heres an update... i have the car in my garage and I spent the last 2 hrs tearing it down. I have the LIM off, the gasket is definetly wasted... totally blown apart as usual right at the coolant ports. But heres the problem with the lifters.... There are 2 (with the motor in it current position) that have 1/4" of free play at the rocker arms!!!. The rockers are unadjustable and are definetly tight. And there may be more as I spin the engine around...... So here is my current assumptions... 1. The lifters are collapsed on these two valves, just have to replace em' 2. I could tell the plenum gasket had just been changed as the gasket surfaces were scratched.... perhaps someone switched the pushrods as they are different lenghts.... but its unlikely as I drove the car 2.5 miles to my house with no problems.... 3. The rocker arms are bent... again not likely..... So my question is.... anyone know which is the longer pushrod? Intake or Exhaust? I wanna check the lenghts before I go buy new lifters, and plus....it isn't my car, I wanna do it as cheap as possible for her.... can anyone else think of anything that would cause the rockers to have so much slop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Ok the intakes are the short pushrods... they were all in correct, the rocker arms are not bent. The lifter are collapsed, I will have to wait until ommorrow and have her buy new lifters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 nice, at least it was obviously bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Just becasue a lifter is collapsed does not mean it is bad. a lifter on an engine that hasn't been run in a while will collapse under pressure from the valve springs. if you ran the engine just a little since it has sat, the lifters will not have built up the pressure necessary to uncollapse. meaning that if the vlave is now closed the lifter may just be stuck down. if In doubt, take those two lifters out, dismantle them, inspect them, and put them together with fresh oil and they may be ok. if you find the internal spring is damaged then replace. I've done that before without a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Ok well, I admit I have no idea how long the car was run with the manifold leak, it doesn't look like long because there wasn't TOO much sludge under the valve covers, and not much at all under the LIM. But I drove it home from the auction yard, and changed the oil right before I left. It wasn't milky when I got home, but the lifters ticked horribly all the way here. I literally pulled in the drive and took the LIM off, as soon as I got the valve covers off I saw the loose rocker. If I look at the lifter with a flashlight, I can see that the pushrod cup is all the way down inside the lifter. I should think that the lifter wouldve pumped up after 2.5-3 miles at 45MPH, but it was ticking away the whole ride home. In any case it is tore down now, and everything is cleaned and prepped. Maybe I will pull out a lifter in the morning and see how it looks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 pulling it out won't hurt. if the oil passages to that lifter are blocked by sludge... that could be the reason those lifters are collapsed. don't forget to change the distributor O-ring. I have no idea if it might be worthwhile.... but you could...... get a oil drive preoiler, rentable from AZ, and spin the oil drive shaft with all the lifters popped out to clear any sludge that might exist. and i would dismantle and clean each lifter in kerosene and re-oil if you suspect any have sludge probelms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Well.... upon dissasembly of the lifters I discovered that the internals of the lifter are seized into the body of the lifter. I tried to get it out with no luck. The oil galleys for the lifters are perfectly clean. NO ONE has the lifter in stock for me to buy, so I may have to order it. After looking at each lifter I determined that there is only one lifter that appears to be siezed up, it is the exhaust lifter for Cyl. #3 @Crazy K I rented that oil primer from AZ, it only works with older GM V8's and the 4.3L V6 that have the slotted oil pump drive. The 3100 has a hexagon shaft that the tool doesn't fit. They did also have a rental primer for ford, that fits the hex oil pump drive, but it doesn't have the stepped plug like the GM one so it would only prime the front galley. But looking at the tool, I think one could easily be made with a spare oil pump drive from a 3100, its just a matter of removing the gear from the drive, and popping off the aluminum plug on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 It's not just a plug, it is a dummy distributor drive, the only purpose it serves driving the oil pump. Remove the hold down clamp, remove the shaft, change the o ring, clean the surface and RTV around the ridge. I highly suggest replacing all of those lifters in there, if the coolant was leaking into the valley you will surely regret not replacing all of them if they are noisy or will not pressurize when running properly. Soak any and all new lifters you replace in oil for a day or so ibefore installation, and don't freak when you start it up if they are extremely noisy, they will quiet down once they come up. Good luck, make sure its clean and change that oil after a couple hundred miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Ok I got the stuck lifter to come apart finally. It appears to be a buildup of sludge holding it down. After a quick soak in gasoline and lubed reassembly, it seems to be working good. Gonna do the other 11 now just for kicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Yeah!!!! Ok so it took me 3 and 1/2 hours to clean the lifters, they worked beautifuly after cleaning. Then it took me another 3 and 1/2 hours to put it all the way back together, change the oil, flush the motor, change the oil, and clean up my mess. The car runs awesome, no hint of lifter noise. It has dual exhaust, and it sounds soooooo much cooler than my Lumina now that I can hear it without the tick. I am gonna go find me a GP exhaust for my Lumina now BTW. This is one clean GP, its such a hot car I want it now lol. Tommorrow when it is bright out I will take a bunch of pics and post em in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdcutty Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Awesome, glad to hear that you got it all worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Awesome, glad to hear that you got it all worked out. x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Yeah!!!! Ok so it took me 3 and 1/2 hours to clean the lifters, they worked beautifuly after cleaning. Then it took me another 3 and 1/2 hours to put it all the way back together, change the oil, flush the motor, change the oil, and clean up my mess. I figured it would work fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 cool beans!! You saved a bit of cash too. Those roller lifters ain't cheap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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