GnatGoSplat Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Damn, this kind of thing creeps me out. ********** Beginning of Message ********** PRODUCT ID: 200 NNNN ZCXC ZCZC MHPFATALS MR.MKCZ 06.32 05/13/06 MCCC MKCX CHWY MKCC MHPFATALS MO HP TROOP C - ST LOUIS 599 S MASON RD ST LOUIS 63141 * * * RADIO ACCIDENT REPORT * * * REPORT NO: A036255C FROM: 332 DATE: 051306 TIME: 031700 OPR: 120 COUNTY: CJF LOCATION: JEFFERSON COUNTY - SB MO-141 .2 MILE NORTH OF 13TH ST CAR: 01 1993 CHEVROLET LUMINA - SB - UNK INS DAMAGE:TOT DISPOSITION: MINERS TOWING DRIVER NAME:MILLER MORRIS E DOB: 120581 AGE: 24 SD: Y ADDRESS:CEDAR HILL MO INJURED PERSON INFORMATION FOR ACCIDENT REPORT A036255C CAR:01 NAME: MILLER MORRIS E DOB: 120581 AGE: 24 INJ: FAT SD: Y ADDR:CEDAR HILL MO INV: DISP:TO ST LOUIS CO MORGUE BY SCHAEFERS MISCELLANEOUS FATALITY ACCIDENT VEH 1 SB ON RT 141 TRAVELED OFF THE WEST EDGE OF THE ROADWAY. VEH 1 STRUCK SEVERAL TREES AND OVERTURNED EJECTING DRIVER 1. ACCIDENT INVESTIGATED BY TPR. C DAVIES (332). PRONOUNCED AT SCENE BY EMS PERSONNEL NEXT OF KIN NOTIFIED NNNN ********** End of Message ********** SD: Y means the guy's seatbelt was still belted. His door must have come open making the door mounted seatbelts about as useful as no belt at all. I wonder who's the genius that thought door-mounted seatbelts was a good idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExZion Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Yeah i always thought about that, most other cars have the seatbelts attached to something structural but our's are attached to, if you think about it, 2 door pins and a striker plate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THe_DeTAiL3R Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Damn, as I was reading that I was thinking "he probably wasn't wearing his seatbelt" I was at the yunkyard today, and there was a 1st gen GP coupe with the door broken off at the hinge. It was still locked though so the other side of the door wouldn't come undone no matter how much we shoved/kicked it to try and get it off the damn car. Of course, if it was hit by another car or something it would fly right off... That's kinda scarey with the seatbelts on the door now that you mention it. However in a 93 Lumina there's no airbags IIRC so he's probably die anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 That's kinda scarey with the seatbelts on the door now that you mention it. However in a 93 Lumina there's no airbags IIRC so he's probably die anyways. It overturned so an airbag probably wouldn't have helped him. He might have died even if he weren't ejected, but being ejected is almost always fatal and I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the cause of death. I've seen cars overturn several times before and the driver walks away from it. Man, only 24! I wonder if he may have even been a member of the forum? I'm seriously adding a conversion to 95-97 pillar mounted belts to my project list. Either that or getting different cars sooner than anticipated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I'm seriously adding a conversion to 95-97 pillar mounted belts to my project list. I was kinda hoping somebody had done it and might have some pointers. I've been thinking about it for a while, door mounted seatbelts are probably the dumbest idea ever. aren't all of the coupe seatbelts built into the door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THe_DeTAiL3R Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 aren't all of the coupe seatbelts built into the door? Yep (err I dunno about ALL, but most I think.. GPs anyways). They look neat though.... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/dsjune/95%20GP/Sept%2019th/S2400058.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I'm seriously adding a conversion to 95-97 pillar mounted belts to my project list. I was kinda hoping somebody had done it and might have some pointers. I've been thinking about it for a while, door mounted seatbelts are probably the dumbest idea ever. aren't all of the coupe seatbelts built into the door? If I do it, I'll take lots of pics. I'll have to go to the JY and start comparing the differences. No, 95-97 Cutlass has pillar mounted seatbelts. I have no idea why 94-96 GP's had the door-mounted belts, didn't they have dual airbags with the interior redesign? I have no idea about the Regal coupe. Something else kind of interesting... GM wasn't the only company to use door-mounted seatbelts, apparently the early 90's Nissan 300ZX had exactly the same setup. Here's a good explanation of why they're on the doors: http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1993/March/03.html http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1994/December/08.html Also found this (from a PDF): QC - Warning on door-mounted seat belts Quebec coroner Jean-François Dorval has blamed a door-mounted seat belt system for the death of a belted driver ejected in a crash. The coroner warned that such belts may not provide enough protection and could result in ejections in side-impact crashes when the doors are damaged. Dorval urged Transport Canada to ensure car makers never again use such seat belts, which have long been the subject of complaints by consumer groups. He also recommended General Motors Canada warn all owners of 1991 Sunbirds and other vehicles itmade with such belts of "the risk that exists when a side impact damages the doors." All my cars have door mounted belts. Wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THe_DeTAiL3R Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Tom: Second, if you crash and the door is forced open, you're not belted in anymore! This happened to a New Hampshire state trooper who was killed when he was ejected from his Chevrolet Caprice after the door opened in an accident. Don't you like those cars Shawn?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToroToro Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Damn Shawn youre really freaking out lately! The only reason I can see why all the GPs have door mounts is because they didn't think to move them until '95, and by that time the first gen GP was on it's way out and it wasnt worth the cash. ( safety usually isnt at GM ) Most of the GM cars in the 80s-early 90s had the door belts. Their intentions were good....but.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 i remember reading about GMs "passive restraint" system a long time ago, which equates to an excuse on their part to not put airbags in. I, personally do not like airbags, but i also see hate these "passive restraints" mine often times will lock before i can even put the seat belt on, and i have to open and close my door for it to reset itself and let the seatbelt work. however airbags seemed to have their own problems in the early 90s, i've heard many stories of chemicial burns from early airbags. so i supose i'd just as soon not have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbird232 Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I have no idea why 94-96 GP's had the door-mounted belts, didn't they have dual airbags with the interior redesign? Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomZoomFan Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I've always wondered about door mounted belts as well. I'm thankful my Beretta doesn't have them, because only the 91-93 Berettas have pillar mounted belts. 87-90 and 94-96 have door mounted belts. Another creepy thing: My aunt's 94 CS has been in an accident where the driver's door was torn off, before she owned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbird232 Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Another creepy thing: My aunt's 94 CS has been in an accident where the driver's door was torn off, before she owned it. Wow, and she still bought it after something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 [kisses his pillar mounted belts] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Tom: Second, if you crash and the door is forced open, you're not belted in anymore! This happened to a New Hampshire state trooper who was killed when he was ejected from his Chevrolet Caprice after the door opened in an accident. Don't you like those cars Shawn?? They went back to pillar mounted belts with the 91 redesign. I was curious so I checked out pics of a few boxy Caprices, they only had the door mounted belts for 1990. That poor trooper just happened to be in the one and only year the Caprice had door mounted belts! Damn Shawn youre really freaking out lately! The only reason I can see why all the GPs have door mounts is because they didn't think to move them until '95, and by that time the first gen GP was on it's way out and it wasnt worth the cash. ( safety usually isnt at GM ) Most of the GM cars in the 80s-early 90s had the door belts. Their intentions were good....but.... Yeah, I know. I always thought the door mounted belts were just a poorly thought out potential hazard, but that fatality report just proved to me it's a real life hazard. The timing is just weird. Maybe it's a sign? Nah, I disagree that their intentions were good. Read that 2nd Cartalk article I linked to... it was just a cheap band-aid fix for GM to get their cars to pass gov't requirements. They really didn't care what happened to you after you bought the car. Just because it's quick & easy, I pulled the plastic door sill trim off the 89 and 94 Cutlasses. On the 94, there's an untapped hole looking very much like an anchor point for conventional belts. On the 89, there's a TORX bolt in about the same location that doesn't appear to have any purpose. Perhaps these cars were designed to accept regular belts from the beginning? I don't know, I'll have to pull the rear quarter trim panel to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomZoomFan Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Another creepy thing: My aunt's 94 CS has been in an accident where the driver's door was torn off, before she owned it. Wow, and she still bought it after something like that? Eh, she didn't know. It didn't show up on Carfax, and the car was "guaranteed" and had been through an inspection done by a GM dealer. And my grandad is a used car dealer, he bought it at a used car auction - from the dealer that did the inspection. The car has had it's engine replaced before my aunt got it as well. She bought it with 100k on the body, and who knows how many on the 3.4. It's still a pretty good car though, I told her before I got my Beretta that I'd take her CS if she'd sell it to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 as far as wrecked cars go, as long as the repair was done properly, i have ZERO problem buying it. and carfax dosen't mean shit. if anyone wants, i'll PM them my VIN number and then let them carfax it and it will come up CRYSTAL CLEAN. then i have pictures of it getting the frame straightened as well as the roof that rippled when i wrecked the car. carfax is a good tool, but its generally REALLY EASY to spot bad body work, learn what to look for. and don't assume that ANY rebuilt wreck is a bad car. theres lots of people that will do shoddy work, but theres plenty more that do the job right. but back to the seatbelts, when i tear my car down at the end of the month i'm real intrested to see if i have the provisions for B pillar belts as well. but that raises a whole nother safety issue, since our cars were designed around door belts, how strong is the metal in the B pillar area, is it strong enough to support all 140 lbs of me in a frontal impact colision? or will the metal tear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 but back to the seatbelts, when i tear my car down at the end of the month i'm real intrested to see if i have the provisions for B pillar belts as well. but that raises a whole nother safety issue, since our cars were designed around door belts, how strong is the metal in the B pillar area, is it strong enough to support all 140 lbs of me in a frontal impact colision? or will the metal tear? If the car had provisions for pillar mounted belts, I think they would have been strong enough since the only difference would be there's no belt installed. Unfortunately, I investigated further and discovered the lower door sill mount wasn't intended for pillar belts. It's there for an add-on lap belt to be used with a child seat since child seats don't work with door-mounted belts. I also pulled up the B-pillar trim panel and found no provisions for the pillar mounted seatbelt there. Behind the interior quarter panel trim, there's no structural metal there for the retractor mechanism of the pillar mounted belts. The 94 does seem to have holes punched out of a thin piece of sheet metal for the retractor, but there's no heavy gauge structural piece behind it. Interestingly, the door striker doesn't seem to be attached to any structural piece either. There's a heavy gauge steel rectangle that holds the striker in, but that piece is just in the middle of thin stamped sheetmetal. It's a bit disappointing, but I might learn more after a trip to the JY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 heres something i was wondering whilst driving around today, what circumstances allow a door to open in any sort of accident? i've seen plenty of wrecked cars in the junkyard, and almost every hard front end collision forces the door into the b pillar, but i have yet to see it actually open, those door latces are a prety good design. i'd have to imagine it would be one helluva wreck to either tear the door off the car, rip the striker pin out of the door frame, or rip the door off at the hinges. now one other question i have is, hypothetically if he had standard b pillar mounted belts with an airbag would he have been any better off? or would it have just been a different kind of fatiality? just playing devils advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 The coroner's report I quoted earlier cited side-impact collisions as being most likely to cause the door to open. The highway patrol report in the original post was a rollover, and rollovers would cause similar pressure on the doors as a side impact. I'd say rollovers and side impacts are going to be the most likely to cause the door to open. As for the guy in the Lumina, I really don't think the lack of an airbag makes any difference in a rollover. In fact, I'm almost positive a rollover won't trigger the airbag sensor. He may have died in the rollover anyway if the roof crushed or collapsed in any way. If anything penetrated the car like a branch or jagged rock, that could have killed him too. However, I know for fact if he had remained belted solidly to the seat, his chances of survival would have been far greater. Being ejected is almost always fatal, rollovers are not. I've seen video of cars rolling over multiple times and the driver is able to walk away from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych0matt Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 good points. kinda what I was thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5speedz34 Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Shawn, although these are good point, honestly do you really think these kinds of wrecks happen that often to worry about it. I read your post, and I mean, you weren't there, you're reading what the report said. Personally I find it kinda sad that you spent time looking this shit up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter_0029 Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Just to Answer you question 95-96 Regals didn't have a Pass Side Air Bag. And they also didn't have door mounted Seat Belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Shawn, although these are good point, honestly do you really think these kinds of wrecks happen that often to worry about it. Actually, I do think they happen often enough. The #1 cause of death among people under the age of 40 is not cancer or heart disease, but car accidents. It only takes one wreck to end it all, and in the wrong car, it doesn't even take a bad wreck. I watch the local news and at least once a week some local person gets killed in a car wreck nearby. Every time I go to Taco Bell I'm reminded of how fragile life is when I see the memorial they put out for one of their 18yr old coworkers that died in a car wreck not far from my home. Personally I find it kinda sad that you spent time looking this shit up. I also spend a lot of time on IIHS.org and safercar.gov reading statistics and comparing crash test data. It's what I do. I look this stuff up because my priorities and what I look for in a car is shifting away from looks and more towards safety. My life is just something I don't want to gamble with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToroToro Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 I spose I can see where you are coming from, but I'm older than you AND my son drives my '94 all the time, and all of this never even crosses my mind. I mean it's terrifying to think about, but it isn't going to control my life, or what kind of cars I like to drive. You may be overreacting just a bit. What REALLY are the odds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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