Guest TurboSedan Posted March 26, 2004 Report Share Posted March 26, 2004 well i finally got a digi-cam and uploaded some pics to my site. i pulled the upper/lower intake off the engine today, and so far everything inside looks pretty darn clean...alot cleaner than expected. the odometer in the '90 TSTE i pulled this engine out of read 111,xxx miles. my Turbo 2 is just going to have to wait. it's sitting on another stand right next to my TGP engine: i've had the TGP motor sitting in my brother's garage since last June, i'm pretty excited to finally be able to start now that i have my own garage joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted March 26, 2004 Report Share Posted March 26, 2004 yeah....that motor is pretty clean. Wait til I get home in a week or so.....you'll see some pics from the motor in my parts car........BURNT UP to say the least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted March 26, 2004 Report Share Posted March 26, 2004 Looks good. What are you planning to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 26, 2004 Report Share Posted March 26, 2004 just a re-seal actually, along with cleaning the hell out of everything. i'm doing the head gaskets (altho neither is blown), upper & lower intake gaskets, timing cover gasket, valve covers, front & rear main seal, freeze plugs, water pump, blah blah blah.....nothing major really. i would like to install a new cam/lifters/timing chain along with a valve job but i'm not sure if i will be able to afford that yet. i know i should.... the turbo was gone and apparantly that was the reason it wasn't running. i talked to the previous owner about 6 months before the car ended up at the salvage yard, and he told me about the turbo being bad (and said the car was "very fast"). he really liked it and didn't want to sell the car at the time but i bet he wished he did. the salvage yard told me he defaulted on his loan and abandoned the car. i tried to buy the entire car from the salvage yard, but the said they never got a title so they could only sell parts. pics of the car here: http://www.turbosedan.com/turboste/ it's still there but it looks nothing like that now; you can hardly tell it is a Grand Prix oh well, at least i tried to save it. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 well i took the pushrods out today and they are all straight. then i took the lifter valley cover off and had a look at the cam - it looks perfect (and very clean) from what i could tell. all of the lobes were perfectly smooth and no ridges anywhere from what i could tell. they all looked the same. for some reason i found alot of rust in one of the intake ports and on the intake valve itself, i'm not sure but i guess maybe the lower intake was leaking...or something? so far everything looks great! due to the mileage and how everything looks, i don't think i'm going to do anything to the heads, and i'll leave the cam/lifters/timing chain alone. is there anything in particular i should be looking for while i have things apart? this is the first time i've done head gaskets. after the heads are back on w/new gaskets i will be pulling the oil pan so i can install a new pump. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Make sure you get the heads checked for flatness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 well shit. looks like my motor is going to be getting a full rebuild after all. i started pulling the heads today and noticed that the rear head gasket around cylinder #6 is indeed blown - i could see evidence of coolant and oil leaking out after i pulled the exhaust manifold, and when i looked in at the #6 exhaust valve it looked way more gunked up than the others. likewise with the intake valve; there was alot of rust all over inside the port as well as the intake valve itself. the other intake valves looked pretty clean. so i pulled the head and.....HOLY SHIT. the piston is FUBAR!! there is a good size chunk of it that apparantly broke/melted off, and the upper 2 rings are missing a chunk about 3/4" long. i guess i know why the turbo went out on the previous owner now....the chunks of piston & rings probably went right thru the exhaust turbine. surprisingly, the head/combustion chamber/valves look fine except for some very minor nicks in the combustion chamber area. everything else looks great, but this TGP motor will now be getting completely disassembled and rebuilt. i will post pics of the damage later today. i removed everything and it is almost a bare shortblock now, sometime soon i will be taking it to a local machine shop - after i buy new pistons, rings, bearings, etc. boo-hoo! joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 Well, shit, no sense in keeping it stock now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 the 1st sign something wasn't quite right - note the crummy valve stem: pretty scary huh? believe it or not the cylinder wall looks perfectly fine: hmm...#6 looks a little different than #2 & #4.... the #6 combustion chamber: oh yeah, the previous owner must have known something was up. i found practically brand new AC spark plugs (for a NA 3.1... ) in the rear head. the plug that came out of hole #6 probably didn't look so good. in the front head i found old crusty TGP spec AC spark plugs. no i won't be keeping it stock....i'm really not sure what to do tho??? how much overbore? should i get pistons that drop the CR? should i install a new cam even tho this one looks fine? guess i need to think about it for awhile... joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 The scary part is where did that piece of the piston go if it wasnt in the cylinder. Holy crap thats crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 28, 2004 Report Share Posted March 28, 2004 The scary part is where did that piece of the piston go if it wasnt in the cylinder. Holy crap thats crazy the only thing i can think of is it either melted and/or went out the exhaust and took out the turbo on its way out. when i bought the motor the turbo was already gone (i wonder why lol). joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 There was a guy on ebay I think that was selling TGP ported heads for $400 assembled. There was a post about it here so do a search, maybe that's something to look into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 wow that sucks, never seen a piston break that way before, could part of the turbo actually broke and flew into the manifold? Id say drop the compression down and run sum serious amount of boost...16-18lbs with a t3 turbo good luck -Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 Since you need a turbo anyway, Disco Potato that thing. I would still keep the short block stock. Since you're putting it in a 4DSC, I doubt you are looking for 11's, so stock bottom end should be fine. And lemme tell you from experience: A 5 SPEED 3.1 TURBO POWERED CAR IS PLENTY FAST. Just not fast enough for me. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 Since you need a turbo anyway, Disco Potato that thing. yeah i will probably keep the short block stock. will i need to bore the engine and get oversized pistons? i actually have 2 perfectly good TGP T-25 turbochargers sitting in my garage, along with a rebuilt crossover pipe with SS braided flexes (and enough extra TGP engine parts to turbocharge my NA 3.1 if i want to). i am only looking for mid/low 14s from this car (stock turbo and after tuning of course). the heads look great really, i think i could throw them back on without doing anything to them if i wanted to...but at the very least they will get a standard valve job and new valve seals. fwiw i made sure to put each cylinder's lifter, pushrod, rocker arm and pivot ball into seperate marked sealed sandwich bags. i would rather just re-use the stock cam/timing chain/lifters...would that be a bad idea if it all looks ok? i have Monday off, so i'll be pulling the oil pan tomarrow and cleaning LOTS of stuff. joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 If it blew a head gasket like you suspect, get the heads checked and/or decked for flatness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted March 29, 2004 Report Share Posted March 29, 2004 :withstupid: Also, let the machine shop know what happened w/ the motor (Ie. the piston fracture) That way THEY can decide how much overbore is needed. I would stick w/ as close to stock as possible. For future rebuilds that is, and it's not like you're trying to squeeze every bit of performance out, so I would let it go. On the cam thing. I personally would put a new cam/lifters in. It's just a preference, I wouldn't go through the rest of the work and re-use an old cam. If it was $400, I would say gofer it. But it's not. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE HEAD AND BLOCK CHECKED!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 First is if the original owner(s) took off the heads and re-used the head bolts, that would explain the head gasket leaking coolant, these are stretch-to-yield bolts, one time use then throw away, Felpro (part number ES74018, future number might now be 21-1133) has these cheaper than GM, get them! Coolant in enough quantity going into the combustion chamber could cause hydraulicing that took our your piston, though I would also check your injectors are all the same/proper size/written number 17086981 on the top of the injector body, AC Delco number for same injector 17086651/217-259. Have them check for cracks too at the head bolt hole areas in the block deck!! Yes, new cam while you are there, stock is just fine, just know the proper break-in procedure for these when you start your engine for the first time!!!! From all the motors I have torn down the cam bearing is something to take care of big time!! Cheap cost and very important. Mellings M95HV high-volume oil pump is stock and great as an upgrade to keep! Make sure to use stock head gasket, OEM or Felpro. New crank sensor while you are there, we all know when they get a lot of miles how they like to fail and break and don’t want to come out!! Other than that for a good stock rebuild, new O-Ring, seals and gaskets! As for the heads (same for thoughts on a cam upgrade), since we have a MAP/Speed Density fueling computer, just have the valves and valve seats re-ground, there is a lot of leaking there over the years mainly on the exhaust side! Some cleaning of the area prior to the valve seat long as they leave the ports stock. Also cleaning off all the buildup in the back side of the valves is important to do at this opportunity. New seals for sure, FelPro has these as well. This will tickle a few but if your engine never had valve float at peak rpm shift, keep the old springs, just kidding, new are best to do at this time, specially if you plan to keep the car. DON’T get high rate springs as these will take away hp from the engine trying to smash the stiff bitches, if you are revving under 6k then stock works, and is easier on the valve train wear, period! Better luck now!!! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 i will be taking it to the machine shop with the pistons/crank/cam/timing chain etc still in the block. i'll make sure they check the heads and block deck. it sounds like a set of Mahle pistons is right around $100...does that include pins? i know this is a vague question, but i really need a better idea of how much this is going to cost: can anyone give me a ballpark figure on how much it will cost to get everything associated with the shortblock checked out and reassembled? i'm talking about checking the heads/block for flatness, installing new cam bearings (?), camshaft, timing chain set, checking the crank, assembling the pistons, installing the crank, all bearings and pistons, any required machine work etc. i can do everything else - but i don't want to mess with the rotating assembly as that is probably a little out of my league. am i looking at over $500 (in labor not parts) to get the shortblock ready? joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 First is if the original owner(s) took off the heads and re-used the head bolts, that would explain the head gasket leaking coolant, these are stretch-to-yield bolts, one time use then throw away, Felpro (part number ES74018, future number might now be 21-1133) has these cheaper than GM, get them! Coolant in enough quantity going into the combustion chamber could cause hydraulicing that took our your piston, though I would also check your injectors are all the same/proper size/written number 17086981 on the top of the injector body, AC Delco number for same injector 17086651/217-259. Have them check for cracks too at the head bolt hole areas in the block deck!! Yes, new cam while you are there, stock is just fine, just know the proper break-in procedure for these when you start your engine for the first time!!!! From all the motors I have torn down the cam bearing is something to take care of big time!! Cheap cost and very important. Mellings M95HV high-volume oil pump is stock and great as an upgrade to keep! Make sure to use stock head gasket, OEM or Felpro. New crank sensor while you are there, we all know when they get a lot of miles how they like to fail and break and don’t want to come out!! Other than that for a good stock rebuild, new O-Ring, seals and gaskets! As for the heads (same for thoughts on a cam upgrade), since we have a MAP/Speed Density fueling computer, just have the valves and valve seats re-ground, there is a lot of leaking there over the years mainly on the exhaust side! Some cleaning of the area prior to the valve seat long as they leave the ports stock. Also cleaning off all the buildup in the back side of the valves is important to do at this opportunity. New seals for sure, FelPro has these as well. This will tickle a few but if your engine never had valve float at peak rpm shift, keep the old springs, just kidding, new are best to do at this time, specially if you plan to keep the car. DON’T get high rate springs as these will take away hp from the engine trying to smash the stiff bitches, if you are revving under 6k then stock works, and is easier on the valve train wear, period! Better luck now!!! Jeff M thanks for the advice Jeff i wrote my last post before i read your reply. i think it's safe to assume the previous owner did not take very good care of it...unfortunately :? i really have no clue what a typical machine shop charges to rebuild/clean a set of head up? this is all new to me (probably obvious haha) replacing the springs is definately something i want to have done so i can get the the engine to rev higher easier. i don't think i will be revving past 6k. i definately need a new crank sensor - the one i removed yesterday was cracked up pretty bad and crumbled when i pulled it out. i am also planning on new fuel injectors for sure - but i have yet to pull the old ones out of the lower intake. basically i want to keep this thing as stock as possible. i know i will be need a set of new Mahle pistons and a stock cam, but i am not planning on doing anything like O-ringing the block or porting the heads or anything. just a basic rebuild done the right way i guess. pistons will be stock - i am hoping it doesn't need to be bored at all - guess i'll find out when i bring it to the machine shop. thanks for the replies everyone i really appreciate the help! joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 thanks for the advice Jeff i wrote my last post before i read your reply. i think it's safe to assume the previous owner did not take very good care of it...unfortunately :? i really have no clue what a typical machine shop charges to rebuild/clean a set of head up? this is all new to me (probably obvious haha) replacing the springs is definately something i want to have done so i can get the the engine to rev higher easier. i don't think i will be revving past 6k. i definately need a new crank sensor - the one i removed yesterday was cracked up pretty bad and crumbled when i pulled it out. i am also planning on new fuel injectors for sure - but i have yet to pull the old ones out of the lower intake. basically i want to keep this thing as stock as possible. i know i will be need a set of new Mahle pistons and a stock cam, but i am not planning on doing anything like O-ringing the block or porting the heads or anything. just a basic rebuild done the right way i guess. pistons will be stock - i am hoping it doesn't need to be bored at all - guess i'll find out when i bring it to the machine shop. thanks for the replies everyone i really appreciate the help! joshua Just a quick run down, but will give you a good idea, but to warn you, the little dollars can add up fast, just use Summit for things like Seals, bearings, oil pump etc, much as you can as they sell it for a lot less than local jobbers, even some wholesale shops I use struggle to meet a few of those Summit items, but Summit buys tons so they get the big boy discount! These are good prices, could be a little more or little less: Boil block $30 Bore & Hone $90 Hone only $40 BUT you walls are worn from 100k miles (?) so will need bored) Deck block $60 but most times it just needs to be checked flat and no gouges, unless someone messed it up before should not need more than a good cleaning/less $$. Install new Cam Bearings $20 though I saw someone show a bill for $100 on this work, wrong!! Remove old pistons from Rods $25 Install new Pistons onto rods $30 (more detailed to put them on) R&R frost plugs $15 Mic up rods and mains for bearings and install both, $35 About it for the block work, some of this people like me can do, more stuff you can do that is not necessary unless pushing much bigger power like magnaflux parts, balance them, but no real need since few have shown this little turbo parts 60 degree V6 to need much effort. Just make sure they check the bolt hole areas in the block deck for any signs of cracks, not a frequent problem with the 60 degree but good to check and since you had signs of water leaking, maybe $10 to check, $10 to drill hole and install metal plug in crack area. Long as you are nice to your engine, might be able to not grind the crank, and save $100. Heads: Hot tank/Boil heads, Pressure test heads (good idea for you on this too), bead blast valves clean, butt grind top of valve stems, reface valves contact area, 2 angle seat grind, assemble and springs height checked $60 each, no need for fancy 3 or more angle for your setup, seen little gains shown with these heads getting more than 3 angles, the work is elsewhere to make them flow monsters. Assemble short block around $100, more the more you have them do to about $200 for all of it. That should help, sorry if the prices don’t help the feeling of your wallet! And I would never feel you are doing less to your engine or this opportunity since it takes a bit to extract much more power, and only when you are making some bigger power, do you need all that other expensive shit, these engines run so far till 280k miles with no rebuild so it’s a tough ass little V6, but like I (hate to) keep saying, its those damn previous owners that stick us with engine knocks, water leaks etc, and boner fixes that we have to undo just to find the actual problem so it can be fixed, don’t get me going as I have one in the shop now undoing some of the lamest efforts to do the simplest things. Also, your shop will help you with answers to other things you might need just in case you can’t get them from here or fast enough for your needs, I will do what I can, but I never sleep so get kinda of cranky and spacey at times . Good luck!! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 thanks for the detailed reply Jeff, i appreciate it i feel much better now just knowing what is involved and about how much it might co$t. i guess that's about what i was thinking. i really don't know how much the total cost of parts will come to obviously, but unfortunately since this problem was unexpected it might be awhile before i have enough cash saved to have work started. until then, i suppose i have my work cut out for me cleaning stuff like the plenum and lower intake, dogbone brackets, timing cover.... fortunately i'm not dependant on this engine, so long as my 200,000+ NA 3.1 holds out until the TGP engine replaces it joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted March 30, 2004 Report Share Posted March 30, 2004 Joshua, always glad to help, when I can, I am stupid and spread myself too thin, just like to help everywhere I guess. Yep, once the unknown is gone, things are a lot easier, just like troubleshooting a problem, and why I like to keep the same car, no more, well not as much learning curve . I too believe you have to have a spare car no matter what other cars you have, always one that wants to avoid the rain (just got washed) snow (sucks) or when you are into any level of project and need some backup wheels, nice to have just glad you got something and that is all that matters. One of my back vehicles was a 1987 Dodge Aries, pure yuk , could not spin the tires in the rain going around a corner, but oh could it be dialed to drift like a pro 8) . If you do have some time, and that helps me, shoot me an email for some parts list on the miscellaneous stuff, just did a rebuild and doing another so its all fresh in my head for now. I can also get ordered those same Mahle piston for a lot less then GM wanting like $109 retail right now, and I have seen/tried/tossed out Federal Mogul that has a different shape dish, and no reinforcement bar in the top area. Other stuff we can yak about, just email me from my TGP web site and it will get it to me. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 I would also check your injectors are all the same/proper size/written number 17086981 on the top of the injector body pulled all of them today and they all are 17086981. it will be awhile before i do much else besides cleaning stuff. i'm going to be saving for new pistons/cam/bearings/rings/gaskets/seals etc etc. for quite awhile before i can even bring the shortblock to the machine shop. i'm starting to wonder if i'll ever get this engine installed lol. btw, do new Mahle pistons come with pins? joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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