Timm Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Hey guys, not sure if I'll get any feedback on this one, but has anyone removed their balance shaft and used a freeze plug (1-1/8" IIRC) to plug the oil feed? On my engine that seized, I had tapped and screwed a plug into the hole, but I really didn't like tossing around all those metal shavings. Spent about a hour trying to find them all and get it cleaned up. On the unofficial balance shaft removal site: http://www.midwest3800.com/forum/kb.php?mode=article&k=258 He mentions the possibility of the plug coming out? That's the last thing I'd ever need on a long road trip in the middle of nowhere... But I don't understand why it would come out... These engines already have like 8 freeze plugs in them between the block and heads, why would one more internally located be a problem? I do understand the basics of expanding and contracting metals at different temperatures, but if I were to go with a steel plug instead of copper, wouldn't it basically expand / contract at the same rate as the block? I really don't want to have to go through the hassle of spending hours cleaning the metal shavings out and never knowing if there were any I missed, however I don't want to half-ass it either and have a plug pop and lose most of my oil pressure... And for the record, I'm using a double roller timing chain with my XP cam, so the balance shaft gear has to come out either way, so I figure I'll remove the entire shaft instead of leaving it in there bleeding off oil pressure. If it makes any difference, the engine will actually be a low mileage (<30K Miles) Series III block with L67 heads & TB and a series III blower & manifold. Thanks for any insight guys! -Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 These engines already have like 8 freeze plugs in them between the block and heads, why would one more internally located be a problem? if i had to guess, i'd say pressure would be the difference.... freeze plugs deal with at most ~16PSI? the oil pressure 3800s run is unusually high, i believe i've seen references of 80PSI before the oil pressure relief valve starts opening up? of course, you could press in a plug and then have somebody just tack-weld it in place to be reassured that it isn't coming out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefEddie Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I tapped and used a plug while the engine was out and before it went into the jetcleaner. I wanted to use a CAM BEARING (not freeze plug) to be redundant but my buddy (nhra machine shop) said don't worry about it. An old cam bearing (I think a 440 dodge fits?) can be tapped into place instead and just offset the oiling hole. Mine is plugged,not worried about it any more. As far as metal shavings,just put gobs of vaseline everywhere and plastic in the valley. The vaseline and plastic will catch all the shavings and just throw away and wipe out shavings. Edited December 6, 2012 by DefEddie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pshojo Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 how much does the engine vibrate? What gains does this really give you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to eaton Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 i did it, its about 5hp, and i could not feel the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted December 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 how much does the engine vibrate? What gains does this really give you? I deleted mine the same time I installed my XP cam, so I did get some vibrations, but nothing I wouldn't daily drive. I'm more interested not bleeding the oil pressure into the valley just to drain back down. With the double roller timing chain, you can't run the balance shaft, so it either just sits there and bleeds off pressure, or you can take it out all the way and block off the oiling port. Thanks guys, I like the idea of the Vaseline to catch the shavings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2001goldGTP Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 So im in the middle of putting a double roller on my l67, i know a few guys that just leave the balance shaft there with no issues. As for plugging the hole, maybe some type of jb weld? Some people use that to close the silencer ports on the sc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted December 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 So im in the middle of putting a double roller on my l67, i know a few guys that just leave the balance shaft there with no issues. As for plugging the hole, maybe some type of jb weld? Some people use that to close the silencer ports on the sc. I left it in on my Impala, and didn't have any real issues... It did have some low oil pressure, but probably because it had over 250k miles lol. The JB weld concept crossed my mind, but I just REALLY don't like the idea of knowing there's a chunk of solid epoxy that *could* come lose... As far as the chance of it actually coming lose, no clue... As Rob mentioned, there's around 80PSI behind it, and it's going to be constantly soaked in oil. As of right now, I'm either going to A: Tap and Plug it. B: Leave it in place just floating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I'd just leave it there IMO. I don't feel it's really worth it to delete it and plug the holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharged400sbc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 the welsh/freeze plug will work ya just need to use locktite mechanical bonder around the edges to give it that extra grip the balance shaft is rotating weight so you wont gain a whole lot except for a lower rotating assembly MOI. the only reason its there is to help cancel out the 3rd and 4th order vibrations induced by a split journal 90* bank angle v6. its typically called a close coupled rocking motion. most evident at lower rpm its nothing other than a way to keep customers from buying a new car that has excessive NVH. i dont give a shit about a rough or jouncy idle unlike the people that shell out 35+K for a car. that said the only good way to delete the balance shaft in my eye's is to remove the rear cover and plug the BS oil channel in the rear cover and a cunthair of rtv on the new paper gasket in the area of the BS block passage pocket. the reason i suggest this is lately 50% of the motors i pull apart the rear cover gasket is split/cracked and leaking coolant externally, internally or oil into the coolant. the motors with the aluminum rear cover gasket can be worse than the paper gaskets sometimes. just pickup a felpro CS9917 set and it'll give ya everything ya need besides flexplate bolts. when i instlall the paper gasket i use a thin coat of permatex super300/aviation sealer (non hardening tar like) in a thin layer on both sides to help keep it in place...tighten to spec (close to 19ftlbs iirc) let it sit for about 15min then retq. ive done 20+ motors now with the aluminum cover BS passage filled with JB quick and never have had an issue btw even if you dont do the proper machinwork on the timing set at least check whether the cam and crank sprockets are in plane by measuring from their face to the block face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharged400sbc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 this is from a 40-50k 06 l26, it was about to start dumping coolant into the oil and was already leaking it externally. when tightening the bolts for this and any cover with gasket, get em all lightly tight and slowly work em all toards tight to keep ya from crushing one area of the gasket excessivly JB quick weld, a torch/heater, brand new razor, and a plug/socket/curl of cardstock with a very light coat of clean grease. file the passage to rough it up good...a new sharp edged flathead screwdriver works...brake clean and blow dry (you hopefully cleaned off all gasket material/etc) then get the round hole plug figured out, lightly grease the outside and stick it in the hole to damn the JB and keep it out of the main galley divot. then heatup the cover with the torch/heater till its hot like a cup of coffee (this will help the JBquick "flow" mixup a teaspoon of quickweld, mix thouroughly and scoupe into the passage in the middle and let it slowly flow into it and overfill it till it "muffin tops" the passage. now wait for the JB to gell up (test with the excess...thats why i told you to mix a teaspoon...once its pushable/cutable but no longer molds to your fingerprint, use the razor to saww off the muffintop towards the dam/plug once its cured your golden...make sure to use the paper gasket for assembly and put a thin fingerprint sized dab at the hooked portion of the JB near the pocket in the block so when its tightened the rtv will seal any tiny leaks and help lock it all into place....the closer you get to the block BS pocket the more likely that the excess will sqeaze into the pocket where it wont hurt anything instead of squeezeing into the main oil galley and possibly fucking something up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharged400sbc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 here;s the rear block face so you can see what i mean by the BS oil pocket that the cover feeds into and the BS passage passes to the bearing from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reride Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) Leave it or pipe plug it. Due to heat expantion of the block an epoxy plug would most likely fall out eventually. If you pipe plug don't forget to use a good thread sealer. Edited December 29, 2012 by Reride thead sealer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted December 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 ...the reason i suggest this is lately 50% of the motors i pull apart the rear cover gasket is split/cracked and leaking coolant externally, internally or oil into the coolant. the motors with the aluminum rear cover gasket can be worse than the paper gaskets sometimes. just pickup a felpro CS9917 set and it'll give ya everything ya need besides flexplate bolts. this is from a 40-50k 06 l26, it was about to start dumping coolant into the oil and was already leaking it externally. Aww crap... I wasn't aware of the rear gasket having leak problems. :-/ Why would the coolant section dry rot like the one in the picture? I just picked up a 70k L26 and got it all put together and now you've got me scared. And also you mentioned the flexplate bolts, are those TTY / One time use? On my L26 I picked up I decided to just keep the balance shaft in and remove the gear. btw even if you dont do the proper machinwork on the timing set at least check whether the cam and crank sprockets are in plane by measuring from their face to the block face I made sure to get the chamfer machined on mine. Checked that they were both in line with the block face. On a side note, is it just me or are the double roller crank sprockets super tight on the crank??? I got mine on, but had to give it a few light knocks with a plastic hammer..? Here's my new L26 tore down: Built back up: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharged400sbc Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Leave it or pipe plug it. Due to heat expantion of the block an epoxy plug would most likely fall out eventually. If you pipe plug don't forget to use a good thread sealer. the epoxy isnt the primary seal, the thin layer of rtv is, the jb weld just supports the sealant and compresses the gasket i have Al's 04 l26 with 90k that got topswapped/cammed and BSdeleted at 35k and only got pulled from the stock chain failing with 105's and bending 6 valves rear cover and JB weld were perfect ill try to get pics to show you but there were no problems and the jb weld is still there and tight i trust it and have dozens in service, its the only way i do it now since i always pull the rear cover on any i build/work on Aww crap...I wasn't aware of the rear gasket having leak problems. :-/ Why would the coolant section dry rot like the one in the picture? I just picked up a 70k L26 and got it all put together and now you've got me scared. i saw my first rear cover leak probably back in 99/00 or so with a motor leaking coolant externally the dex cool organic acid coolant doesnt help but i see corrosion push the plate away from the block so the older it is the more likely it is to be leaking or about to leak. seen it on paper and metal. when tightening it down evenly tighten everything a little tweak at a time to prevent crushing or splitting the gasket. i usually hit both sides of the felpro or oem rear cover gaskets with permatex super300 aviation sealer i convert everything to green honestly its been about 50/50 but at those odds i do it all the time, so dont give up all hope....oil analysis will tell ya if suddenly coolant shows up in the oil... And also you mentioned the flexplate bolts, are those TTY / One time use? flexplate to crank are, ive reused em but it was on stock motors and if you feel one "soften" i pull it out and try another of my "good used one's ive been using arp bolts and never had a failure On my L26 I picked up I decided to just keep the balance shaft in and remove the gear. I made sure to get the chamfer machined on mine. Checked that they were both in line with the block face. On a side note, is it just me or are the double roller crank sprockets super tight on the crank??? I got mine on, but had to give it a few light knocks with a plastic hammer..? making sure the gear faces are in line is the #1 thing, the face of the crank and cam gears should be the same distance from the machined block face with account taken of the crank and cam endplay when the keyways are cut the bore ID deforms, i spend a while with crocus cloth and its just a snug fit at that point, cam gear ID/backside deforms from the keyway being cut as well but im more careful with those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l67ss Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 1 modification im gonna avoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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