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3400 build... ITS RUNNING!!!


19Cutlass94
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so I bought this 3400 to put in my car. I started tearing it down, and seeing what I would need and what I wouldnt. Right now, my plans for this motor is a MMS Stage1 cam, P&P UIM and LIM, and a TCE 65mm TB. I think this should wake this 3400 up a little bit, while still running good on the stock ECM.

 

Heres some pictures from when I started tearing it down. First thing that came to mind was damn this thing is clean!

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And here waiting for parts.. ( you can see my cracked/broken timing cover :( )

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I might need to get my 3100 exahust manifolds ported because the new exhaust Im getting is for my current motor and and the manifolds are different in terms of the DP location. But I figure if I get them gasket matched they should work pretty good. Anyways thats what I got done so far. I know some one is gonna say your stupid swap to OBD2... well thats kinda hard right now cause not only do I not have the time, ( and another car to drive ) I dont have the money for a new tranny, new wiring harness, and what I would really like to do for the motor. But it can happen later on down the road, and these current mods can always be built upon.

 

So anyways thats what I got done so far. And between the new exhaust and this motor... damn my bank account hates me right now :lol:

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yeah I took pictures as I pulled parts off. Those covers look the way that they came off the car. I didnt touch a single thing!

 

I thought about OBD2... but really its more work than I would like to do right now and more money than I wanna spend. I dont have another car I can drive while this is down and Ive *heard* than when I swap to OBD2, theres a difference in the 4T60-E's between OBD1 and OBD2, so Ill need a new tranny, and I cannot afford that right now

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Don't listen to all that raff!! Where'd you hear that? MMS? Who told you to buy from MMS? Cam Specs? :)

 

Get it running, when you get the chance grab a '96 or '97 W body 3100 harness (upper, lower w/ power boxes, fuel injector, downstream O2, all harnesses!) knock sensor, transmission gear/neutral safety switch, secondary EVAP solenoid w/ bracket and hose, and I think that was it. The transmission from '94+ has the same wiring for the most part. Just the safety switch is different. Swap that and that should be it. Get a '97 (specific!) Venture/Montana PCM to use, and get a O2 simulator for the downstream instead of installing one.

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Don't listen to all that raff!! Where'd you hear that? MMS? Who told you to buy from MMS? Cam Specs? :)

 

Get it running, when you get the chance grab a '96 or '97 W body 3100 harness (upper, lower w/ power boxes, fuel injector, downstream O2, all harnesses!) knock sensor, transmission gear/neutral safety switch, secondary EVAP solenoid w/ bracket and hose, and I think that was it. The transmission from '94+ has the same wiring for the most part. Just the safety switch is different. Swap that and that should be it. Get a '97 (specific!) Venture/Montana PCM to use, and get a O2 simulator for the downstream instead of installing one.

 

Heres the cam specs of the MMS

 

Duration : 209.4º intake / 213.1º exhaust (@ 0.050" lift)

Lift @lobe : 0.305" intake / .308" exhaust

with 1.6 roller rockers : 0.488" intake / 0.493" exhaust

Lobe Seperation Angle : 110º

Intake Centerline : 108.1º

 

 

Thing I dont like about the 60* cams is that you need custom lenght pushrods so add $135 to the price and you also need either LS6 or comp cams springs adding yet more to the cost. The MMS I dont need custom legth pushrods and I can use the stock springs. You act like buying from MMS is a bad thing?!

 

I think Ill be swaping later on down the road, but not right now.

 

Damn that engine is CLEAN!!! Mileage on the 3400?

 

8,000miles :)

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Don't listen to all that raff!! Where'd you hear that? MMS? Who told you to buy from MMS? Cam Specs? :)

 

Get it running, when you get the chance grab a '96 or '97 W body 3100 harness (upper, lower w/ power boxes, fuel injector, downstream O2, all harnesses!) knock sensor, transmission gear/neutral safety switch, secondary EVAP solenoid w/ bracket and hose, and I think that was it. The transmission from '94+ has the same wiring for the most part. Just the safety switch is different. Swap that and that should be it. Get a '97 (specific!) Venture/Montana PCM to use, and get a O2 simulator for the downstream instead of installing one.

 

Heres the cam specs of the MMS

 

Duration : 209.4º intake / 213.1º exhaust (@ 0.050" lift)

Lift @lobe : 0.305" intake / .308" exhaust

with 1.6 roller rockers : 0.488" intake / 0.493" exhaust

Lobe Seperation Angle : 110º

Intake Centerline : 108.1º

 

 

Thing I dont like about the 60* cams is that you need custom lenght pushrods so add $135 to the price and you also need either LS6 or comp cams springs adding yet more to the cost. The MMS I dont need custom legth pushrods and I can use the stock springs. You act like buying from MMS is a bad thing?!

 

I think Ill be swaping later on down the road, but not right now.

 

Damn that engine is CLEAN!!! Mileage on the 3400?

 

8,000miles :)

 

You're gonna hate this.

 

You SHOULD be using stiffer springs, and longer pushrods, including with this MMS cam. Custom length pushrods are recommended so you have the proper valvetrain preload. Our valvetrain is non adjustable at the rocker arm. With ANY aftermarket cam, the base circle of each lobe (when the valve is closed) is going to be smaller, in order to have higher lift. The maximum diameter of the lobe, at the peak, cannot be exceeded. If it were, it wouldn't fit into the block. Picture with the smaller base circle, the lifter will be sitting further down in the bore. Even though it's a small amount, it still needs to be addressed. This is where custom pushrods come in. A pushrod that is longer than stock by the difference in base circle RADIUS is what will give you the proper preload (very close to). Yes, you CAN run with stock pushrods, but it's not optimal. The option in the old school days is to adjust preload with adjustable rocker arm mounts. We don't have that option, that ended in 1995 when the roller rockers came out. .488/.493 is significant lift. My cam is .460/.460 and I'm using stock pushrods, and I'm already on the dangerous side with preload. Hydraulic lifters do help *a little* but won't take up that much slack in the valvetrain.

 

Now onto the springs. If you check with specs on 60 degree, you'll find that stock 3x00 springs have a relatively low closed AND open spring pressure. These springs DO float early, as soon as 5500 rpm's with a stock motor. With an aftermarket cam, it's going to be much worse with the higher lift and higher ramp-up rate. LS1 and LS6 springs can be had on the cheap, as well as the installation hardware. They are beehive style just like stock, and are strong but not excessive. Running with weak springs and less preload is a surefire way to accelerate valvetrain wear. Ask anyone who has built engines, and they will tell you they've seen more damage from using too weak valve springs, as opposed to using springs that are too stiff. Take a look at specs on Crane Cams for the 60 degree V6, as well as aftermarket cams for LS V8's. Specs will always call for stiffer springs for proper operation.

 

Which brings me to MMS. If they had NOT told you any of this, and said you can simply install this cam and "be done" then technically they are right (anything will "run") but it's far, far from optimal. That's the difference between MMS and places like 60 degree that won't suggest you do this half assed.

 

If you don't want to get this deep, I'm going to suggest getting a much milder cam, or prepare for issues down the road, having a noisy valvetrain, experience valve float, etc.

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All this work and it will still be slow and OBD I.. why even bother.

 

Slow is all relative, and really, you can't tell how fast it will be. It's not going to be insanely screaming fast, but it'll be better.. and the 3400 is a good motor.

 

Are you going to be the next "L67 is God" club member?

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Don't listen to all that raff!! Where'd you hear that? MMS? Who told you to buy from MMS? Cam Specs? :)

 

Get it running, when you get the chance grab a '96 or '97 W body 3100 harness (upper, lower w/ power boxes, fuel injector, downstream O2, all harnesses!) knock sensor, transmission gear/neutral safety switch, secondary EVAP solenoid w/ bracket and hose, and I think that was it. The transmission from '94+ has the same wiring for the most part. Just the safety switch is different. Swap that and that should be it. Get a '97 (specific!) Venture/Montana PCM to use, and get a O2 simulator for the downstream instead of installing one.

 

Heres the cam specs of the MMS

 

Duration : 209.4º intake / 213.1º exhaust (@ 0.050" lift)

Lift @lobe : 0.305" intake / .308" exhaust

with 1.6 roller rockers : 0.488" intake / 0.493" exhaust

Lobe Seperation Angle : 110º

Intake Centerline : 108.1º

 

 

Thing I dont like about the 60* cams is that you need custom lenght pushrods so add $135 to the price and you also need either LS6 or comp cams springs adding yet more to the cost. The MMS I dont need custom legth pushrods and I can use the stock springs. You act like buying from MMS is a bad thing?!

 

I think Ill be swaping later on down the road, but not right now.

 

Damn that engine is CLEAN!!! Mileage on the 3400?

 

8,000miles :)

 

You're gonna hate this.

 

You SHOULD be using stiffer springs, and longer pushrods, including with this MMS cam. Custom length pushrods are recommended so you have the proper valvetrain preload. Our valvetrain is non adjustable at the rocker arm. With ANY aftermarket cam, the base circle of each lobe (when the valve is closed) is going to be smaller, in order to have higher lift. The maximum diameter of the lobe, at the peak, cannot be exceeded. If it were, it wouldn't fit into the block. Picture with the smaller base circle, the lifter will be sitting further down in the bore. Even though it's a small amount, it still needs to be addressed. This is where custom pushrods come in. A pushrod that is longer than stock by the difference in base circle RADIUS is what will give you the proper preload (very close to). Yes, you CAN run with stock pushrods, but it's not optimal. The option in the old school days is to adjust preload with adjustable rocker arm mounts. We don't have that option, that ended in 1995 when the roller rockers came out. .488/.493 is significant lift. My cam is .460/.460 and I'm using stock pushrods, and I'm already on the dangerous side with preload. Hydraulic lifters do help *a little* but won't take up that much slack in the valvetrain.

 

Now onto the springs. If you check with specs on 60 degree, you'll find that stock 3x00 springs have a relatively low closed AND open spring pressure. These springs DO float early, as soon as 5500 rpm's with a stock motor. With an aftermarket cam, it's going to be much worse with the higher lift and higher ramp-up rate. LS1 and LS6 springs can be had on the cheap, as well as the installation hardware. They are beehive style just like stock, and are strong but not excessive. Running with weak springs and less preload is a surefire way to accelerate valvetrain wear. Ask anyone who has built engines, and they will tell you they've seen more damage from using too weak valve springs, as opposed to using springs that are too stiff. Take a look at specs on Crane Cams for the 60 degree V6, as well as aftermarket cams for LS V8's. Specs will always call for stiffer springs for proper operation.

 

Which brings me to MMS. If they had NOT told you any of this, and said you can simply install this cam and "be done" then technically they are right (anything will "run") but it's far, far from optimal. That's the difference between MMS and places like 60 degree that won't suggest you do this half assed.

 

If you don't want to get this deep, I'm going to suggest getting a much milder cam, or prepare for issues down the road, having a noisy valvetrain, experience valve float, etc.

 

Gotcha. Basically if I got the Stage1 from the 60*store and their pushrods and LS6 springs Ill be set. From reading on that forums it seems like the specs on this cam are very close to what they say is good for people who cant tune. Those specs that they 'recommend for people who cant tune is:

 

206º intake / 210º exhaust (@ 0.050" lift) and a lobe lift around 0.295" ( with 1.6 rockers = 0.427" )

 

And the Stage1 from the 60* Store:

 

206/206 @ .050 duration, 260/260 @ .006 duration, .480/.480 lift. 110 LSA

 

I think that cam should work very well in that motor if thats what they claim! Just as long as I get the LS6 springs and the custom pushrods to make everything work. And having all pushrods and the correct springs means I wont have to worry about valvefloat at all and the preload will be correct. I know how to adjust it using valvelash and such, but I guess if I need longer pushrods and better springs to make it more reliable and actually make it work, then thats what Ill have to do. Itll just take a little longer to get done thats all.

 

 

Not to put a damper on things but..

 

All this work and it will still be slow and OBD I.. why even bother.

 

Should have saved and done an L67, unless you plan to do some kind of forced induction on this motor.

 

Coming from a kid who didnt know what a sway bar was, your the one to talk. You had every person in the world work on your car so how the fuck are you gonna tell me what I should and shouldnt do?

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Gotcha. Basically if I got the Stage1 from the 60*store and their pushrods and LS6 springs Ill be set. From reading on that forums it seems like the specs on this cam are very close to what they say is good for people who cant tune. Those specs that they 'recommend for people who cant tune is:

 

206º intake / 210º exhaust (@ 0.050" lift) and a lobe lift around 0.295" ( with 1.6 rockers = 0.427" )

 

Where is that cam with the .427 lift from? 60 degreev6? If you already purchased a cam from MMS (they charge a lot for that cam), you could always have pushrods made to a specified length. Not too hard to determine. The LS6 springs, you have an '04 3400 right? You'll need different valve seals (I think ones from a 2.2L I4 works. I used a set for a Dodge 318 that also worked) and for the spring seats I picked up a set from Isky Cams. However I think someone found Toyota ones that work too. Someone on that forum should know. You may re-use the spring retainers and keepers from the 3400.

 

And the Stage1 from the 60* Store:

 

206/206 @ .050 duration, 260/260 @ .006 duration, .480/.480 lift. 110 LSA

 

I think that cam should work very well in that motor if thats what they claim! Just as long as I get the LS6 springs and the custom pushrods to make everything work. And having all pushrods and the correct springs means I wont have to worry about valvefloat at all and the preload will be correct. I know how to adjust it using valvelash and such, but I guess if I need longer pushrods and better springs to make it more reliable and actually make it work, then thats what Ill have to do. Itll just take a little longer to get done thats all.

 

There's no way to adjust valvelash with this setup unfortunately, unless you go with Crane gold race rocker arms, or something similar, and switch to a conversion stud.

 

Not to put a damper on things but..

 

All this work and it will still be slow and OBD I.. why even bother.

 

Should have saved and done an L67, unless you plan to do some kind of forced induction on this motor.

 

Coming from a kid who didnt know what a sway bar was, your the one to talk. You had every person in the world work on your car so how the fuck are you gonna tell me what I should and shouldnt do?

 

HAHAHA!!

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That first one is suppose to be 0.472" lift....I wrote it down wrong :lol:

 

But its here in the last paragraph: http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=35618&garpg=4

 

I havent bought a cam yet, im still looking and determining things at this point. yeah I have a 2004 3400. I think they have as a option like new retainers ( actually I dont think they give you a choice in the store ) but Ill have to ask there what seals I can use on a set of '04 heads with LS6 springs.

 

yeah deff no way to adjust that like there is on the dads car. 1 main reason is the hydrualic roller we run and the solid lifter he runs.. but I think that Stage 1 cam in the 60* store should work pretty good. I just gotta figure out what seals like you mentioned.

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Id rather have my "turd" than your fucking piece of shit. If you dont have anything competent to say about anything in this forum, GTFO! Ohh wait a minute... you never did and still dont... Once you have something useful to say and have actually done a mod that requires work, besides changing your oil, cause that got you far.. then maybe people here will actually repect you.

 

 

 

Brian P, I asked what valve seals I should use over on 60* and told them Ill be using the LS6 springs, comp cams steel retainers, and the custom pushrods ( even though that doesnt matter in this situation ) and they gave me the part number for the stock 3400 valve seals. Well see if anyone else has a say on that topic..

 

 

set of LS6 valve springs and retainers less than 5k miles - $80

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=747080&highlight=LS6+springs

 

LS6 springs off a customers car with around 4500 miles on them. Wants 50 shipped.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=771349&highlight=LS6+springs

 

Thanks!!! Ill deff have to check those out!

 

 

 

BTW, intakes went out today to get P&P'ed!

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Nevermind.. not worth my time. Damn that was a good post to.

 

"You can polish a turd all you want, but in the end it is still a turd" .. that about sums this build up.

 

If you're going to be a troll, crawl back to whatever Fuck-ass forum you're on now and bother them. The 3400 is a fine engine to start with, and I see no problem with doing a performance build on it.

 

And all this is coming from a Focus owner. Seriously, the SVT Focus is the epitome of a sad attempt to polish a turd.

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