z284pwr Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 I don't appreciate being called an "idiot" even if my ways are moronic. This is a debate and is not somewhere to be using verbal abuse. Besides you are barking up the wrong tree. I didn't call anyone anything. Don't take things so personally. I'm just sick of having this debate with people. Is there something preventing you from not debating? Do you have to debate it everytime? Oh yeah, it is possible to drop just a bit of water in the intake and it will clean out the engine.... Octane boost doesn't do much, it had what 3 points to a fuel grade right? so 87 becomes 87.3! Ethanol is a whole different story though. It burns a lot faster than gas, essence its like way below 87 octane but runs A LOT cleaner, and a lot cooler as well. Alcohol injection + Frosty intakes FTW! I'm lost on the higher octane increased HC levels though. Mainly because at idle, it wouldn't really matter as much what octane as the air to cause detonation isn't going to be there. If its raising it that much, I dunno what my car would run on 87 considering it already passes the emissions test with less than 10 on the readings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippie Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 If i wasn't specific enough with the lower octane gas the "soot" or "debris" concentration was higher. There were much more dirt particles that you could see with an eye and then when we used the microscope there were even more tiny object floating in the gas. The premium was also a lighter color and much more transparent then the 87. I will go and try to find my old lab report to find the chemicals we found. Unless "teach" got controlled samples straight from the refinery I would have to question the results. Many stations will buy gas from whomever they can get it from so it's possible your 87 sample was a mix from different sources or the tanks were contaminated. Too many possible variables there to make the statement that 87 is "dirtier" than 93 if he just went down to the corner station. As far as the performance argument use the lowest Octane you can run without detonation, anything more than that or adding octane booster is just a waste of money and if you truly need a higher Octane then buying the cheap stuff and dumping a can of booster in will cost you the same or a little more in the long run. I used to carry it if I had a car that needed the good stuff when travelling just in case I got hold of some mismarked gas. That happened to me years ago with my '67 GTO and it wasn't pretty. And while we're "debunking" 10% Ethanol will not ruin your fuel system with long term usage like so many people seem to think, my '94 LeSabre has 192,000 miles on it using nothing but. I replaced a fuel pump at 105,000 and one injector at about 120,000. I replace the fuel filter every couple years if I happen to think of it. It will still pull 29 MPG Hwy running 70 MPH. I also ran 10% for 10 years in a bone stock '62 Impala 283 with no ill results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteCarloChick Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Do you have to debate it everytime? Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 I run premium in my RX-7 for the reason as 97loudcut, plus premium in my area doesn't contain ANY ethanol......I run 87 octane in my Lumina because I don't worry as much about that car. Repairs are somewhat inexpensive, and I also don't care as much about that car lol.....sort of a double standard I guess... I ran premium in my Lumina once and it drank back $65.00 (full tank) worth of fuel in 300km, whereas it usually goes 450km on a tank of regular fuel lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Ethanol is a whole different story though. It burns a lot faster than gas, essence its like way below 87 octane but runs A LOT cleaner, and a lot cooler as well. Alcohol injection + Frosty intakes FTW! You couldn't be more wrong about Ethanol and it's octane rating! Ethanol is grain alcohol...you know moonshine? E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline. E85 has an octane rating between 105 to 110 octane. That is most of the problem with normally aspirated cars running E85 is the fact it is so high of an octane rating it takes more throttle input to achieve the same seat of the pants feel of power. The more you are in the throotle the more fuel delivered. NO N/A low compression car will run well on E85 unless you increase the injector delivery by approximately 25%. Turbo vehicles benefit the most from E85 as it has a variable compression ratio. Do a little research and you will see. Start here and you will find more info about Ethanol than you will ever want to know. http://www.ethanol.org/ I'm lost on the higher octane increased HC levels though. Mainly because at idle, it wouldn't really matter as much what octane as the air to cause detonation isn't going to be there. If its raising it that much, I dunno what my car would run on 87 considering it already passes the emissions test with less than 10 on the readings. Detonation does not cause HC levels in the exhaust. Unburnt fuel coming from the combustion chamber does. The higher the octane and the lower the compression the less complete fuel burn you will achieve. Make sense? I am desperately waiting for E85 to get to Colorado Springs. I am waiting for it so I can turn the boost up, tune, and make more power for a lot less than 110 octane race gas...$1.90 per gallon for E85 compared to $5.85 per gallon for race gas! Here is an article I found about Ethanol stills or actually moonshine stills! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12801825/from/RS.1/ Also an article about the Saab 9-5 they made to run on E-85 that has an increase in power and a GAIN in mileage per gallon while running on E-85. http://www.autointell.com/News-2004/December-2004/Dec-2004-2/Dec-08-04-p6.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Use what you want to use. I really could care less. I did the expirement, I saw the results. I will continue using the highest octane gas in my car no matter the cost. Like I said before, nothing but the best goes into my engine. If i wasn't specific enough with the lower octane gas the "soot" or "debris" concentration was higher. There were much more dirt particles that you could see with an eye and then when we used the microscope there were even more tiny object floating in the gas. The premium was also a lighter color and much more transparent then the 87. I will go and try to find my old lab report to find the chemicals we found. More soot, debris, and dirt? I highly doubt it. I agree with Hippie, I highly doubt those were very good control samples. Did you get samples from several sources? The station itself could have also been the source of the contamination. The companies themselves that sell fuel have even admitted the ONLY difference is octane, and that additional octane will do NOTHING for you except empty your wallet faster. IF it were true that regular unleaded isn't as clean as premium (which I highly doubt), what difference would it make anyway? You're still paying more for nothing, because obviously it has no effect on reliability and longevity of engine components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 You know Im not going to read through 3 pages of this, but a higher octane will burn out your fuel injectors faster since it burns hotter. Since thats basically what fuel cleaner is, higher octane than what your using. Thats why they say use every 3,000mi. because if you use more often youll probably burn out your injectors. For our cars, you will gain absolutly NOTHING. Higher octane was meant for more performance cars to stop pinging as well as a higher c/r. our cars are about 9.5:1 ( I know Gen II is, I think Gen I is like what 8:1?? ) 87 octane is a match for that, as you increase, ( to which you can only get away with about a max of 10.5:1 c/r on pump gas ) you need a higher octane to prevent pinging in performance engines. [qoute]I will continue using the highest octane gas in my car no matter the cost[/qoute] what a waste of your money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 You know Im not going to read through 3 pages of this, but a higher octane will burn out your fuel injectors faster since it burns hotter. Since thats basically what fuel cleaner is, higher octane than what your using. Thats why they say use every 3,000mi. because if you use more often youll probably burn out your injectors. For our cars, you will gain absolutly NOTHING. Higher octane was meant for more performance cars to stop pinging as well as a higher c/r. our cars are about 9.5:1 ( I know Gen II is, I think Gen I is like what 8:1?? ) 87 octane is a match for that, as you increase, ( to which you can only get away with about a max of 10.5:1 c/r on pump gas ) you need a higher octane to prevent pinging in performance engines. 12:1 on pump gas at sea-level densities is easily achievable with proper fueling and tuning...sorry. 3.1 and 2.8 N/A engines are running 8.9:1. The TGP/TSTE LG5 is 8.8:1. If the 3.4 DOHC is running 9.5:1 (which I know nothing about that motor) then at sea-level you are at about 90-91 octane. Most any gas stations I remember in Upstate NY and Maine (where I grew up) the highest octane at the pump was 96 (Mobil I recall had super 98 Octane in some areas). So that would end up being a mid-grade at most sea-level stations to get 90-91 octane? Up here you would run 85 because the compression ratio drops because of the altitude. Another thing that will increase detonation and need for higher octane is the difference between an iron head and an aluminum head. Iron heads will hold in heat much worse than an aluminum head. More heat in the combustion chamber the easier it is to detonate. There are many variables guys...but to run High Octane in a motor with less than 10:1 ratio (YES 0.5:1 cr difference is signifigant enough!) either on a N/A or final compression on a turbo/supercharged car is NOT necessary! Spend a few bucks and take it to a dyno (the same dyno each time ) to see if there is a power difference between High and Low octane fuels. Here is a perfect quote from another forum while I was looking for an "approximate" octane to compression ratio chart.... I don't think there is any easy answer to that question. Coolant temperature, valve and ignition timing, piston material, combustion chamber shape, even the type of spark plug used has a huge influence in the octane needed to keep an engine from detonating. I have seen guys putting 104 octane racing fuel in relatively mild 400hp street engines, and i know of engines that make over 800hp on 94 octane pump gas. I think its more of trial and error and how your combo works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCGUY112887 Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I gotta reply to this, now I can't really do any tests on power but I did a fairly consistant test of 93octane vs 87octane in my 96 stock 3100 GP. For a few months I filled on 93 only, same pump, same station. I drive the same places all the time, i'm never on the highway, all around town (goin to the store, school, friends house, etc). I also tried to drive about the same, not granny slow but not smokin tires around each corner. With 93 octane I got a consistant reading of 16-18mpg 100% city driving. The first tank I went though I didn't count being as there was probally still some 87 left in the lines. Then I switched to 87 octane. Again didn't count the first tank. Now I consistantly get 19-21mpg. I filled up today because I saw every station went up to $2.89 and my station was still $2.77 so I ran to fillup. This is what I got 265.9miles 12.683 gallons of 87 ~20.965 MPG I think the reason behind this is maybe becasue my PCM can't really add enough timing to make use of the higher octane so more ends up getting spit out the exhaust. As far as power I can't really do dyno runs, but I can say that I really felt no difference between the grades of gas. I feel more of a difference when I run cleaner or when I did my top-end clean sometime last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssheen Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 We only use 87 in my wife's 94 Cutlass Supreme. It seems to do well on that with over 340,000km so far. My Daytona is turbo and they recommend Premium for that. The reason being to help with detonation. Knock retard robs power. However, I actually only run 89 in it with no troubles. I tried 87 once, but had too much knock retard. I modified the ECU's calibration to flash the CE light on knock retard. Before that I would use a scanner and data log with some software I wrote to my laptop. There are other things one can do to fight detonation and not have to use high octane fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssheen Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Yeah just put in 1.5 gallons of water (aka liquid) for every 10 gallons of gas. It will steam clean the inside of your engine as you run it through the system! I ran a very simple setup for a while but took it off because of the meth alchol to keep it from freezeing this past winter would make me go through 1L in about 60kms and was a pain to keep full. Been too lazy to put it back on, though I have thought about doing it again before I do a head swap to see how clean it makes things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solid_raiden223 Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 All i know is the differnce between The two in my car is that...i get about 17 miles to the gallon on 87 and about 20 on premium.....so...theres my two cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z284pwr Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 You couldn't be more wrong about Ethanol and it's octane rating! Ethanol is grain alcohol...you know moonshine? E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline. E85 has an octane rating between 105 to 110 octane. That is most of the problem with normally aspirated cars running E85 is the fact it is so high of an octane rating it takes more throttle input to achieve the same seat of the pants feel of power. The more you are in the throotle the more fuel delivered. NO N/A low compression car will run well on E85 unless you increase the injector delivery by approximately 25%. Turbo vehicles benefit the most from E85 as it has a variable compression ratio. Do a little research and you will see. Start here and you will find more info about Ethanol than you will ever want to know. http://www.ethanol.org/ Actually, reading what you said, I'm technically right and wrong.....You have to INCREASE fuel delivery....which means it burns FASTER....Its different I know, I'm coming from straight Methanol side, which yes, it burns about twice as fast *friend had a Sprint car running Methanol *Grape Juice* as per its smell* So yes, its like technically less than 85 because its burns faster so it has less resistance to burning. Higher octane takes more spark to fire because it resists burning more, hence why it decreases detonation. So it burns faster, but decreases detonation....so its higher and lower in a sense.... Detonation does not cause HC levels in the exhaust. Unburnt fuel coming from the combustion chamber does. The higher the octane and the lower the compression the less complete fuel burn you will achieve. Make sense? I am desperately waiting for E85 to get to Colorado Springs. I am waiting for it so I can turn the boost up, tune, and make more power for a lot less than 110 octane race gas...$1.90 per gallon for E85 compared to $5.85 per gallon for race gas! This part makes sense, I also have a bit different set of variables on this one so I don't really count for the low compression thing...plus I have a cat.... I have E85 available about 10 miles away from me actually, I don't want to risk messing up the rubber lines for one, or the tune. Say......Wonder what it would take to get someone to burn me an E85 style chip for my engine to see how it runs.....hmmm.....that would be interesting to see.... 12:1 on pump gas at sea-level densities is easily achievable with proper fueling and tuning...sorry. 3.1 and 2.8 N/A engines are running 8.9:1. The TGP/TSTE LG5 is 8.8:1. If the 3.4 DOHC is running 9.5:1 (which I know nothing about that motor) then at sea-level you are at about 90-91 octane. Most any gas stations I remember in Upstate NY and Maine (where I grew up) the highest octane at the pump was 96 (Mobil I recall had super 98 Octane in some areas). So that would end up being a mid-grade at most sea-level stations to get 90-91 octane? Up here you would run 85 because the compression ratio drops because of the altitude. Agreed...Hell, there is a guy here in Utah running 12.0 PLUS boost.... My engine is running 9.5:1 plus ~8-10PSI so it can be done...Oh and he wins, altitude plays a BIG roll in it, hence why TGP guys can pull the wastegate line off the BCS and not blow the motor up.... Ah, this is a much more interesting fuel debate now haha.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Actually, reading what you said, I'm technically right and wrong.....You have to INCREASE fuel delivery....which means it burns FASTER....Its different I know, I'm coming from straight Methanol side, which yes, it burns about twice as fast *friend had a Sprint car running Methanol *Grape Juice* as per its smell* So yes, its like technically less than 85 because its burns faster so it has less resistance to burning. Higher octane takes more spark to fire because it resists burning more, hence why it decreases detonation. So it burns faster, but decreases detonation....so its higher and lower in a sense.... Yes fuel delivery needs to be increased but it is because it burns faster? I am doing research on this so I will confirm or deny later! My current understanding is that Ethanol, Methanol, Alcohol when it is burnt is an oxigenator. The problem with it being an oxigenator is the fact that the post combustion product ends up having a higher 02 level than gasoline and it confuses the 02 sensor into a false lean condition. I will look into it more. On a Sprint car...at least the Sprints/Modified/Silver Crown/etc that I have been around over the years ran Alcohol because of the EXTREME compression ratios they run for some pretty wicked HP. If the cr is high then yes the high octane Alcohol based fuels will burn real fast. Like I said before unless you have high compression you will not burn all of it cleanly. This part makes sense, I also have a bit different set of variables on this one so I don't really count for the low compression thing...plus I have a cat....I have E85 available about 10 miles away from me actually, I don't want to risk messing up the rubber lines for one, or the tune. Say......Wonder what it would take to get someone to burn me an E85 style chip for my engine to see how it runs.....hmmm.....that would be interesting to see.... I will be playing with tuning when I finally get some up here. I think it will be fun to make a dual chip setup for folks to run either gas or E-85. With an emulator is nothing more than a "load bin" function to the emulator. I would think I could set up a dual chip station with a flip of the switch in the cockpit to switch between gas settings and E-85 settings. There are a few pages out there talking about what it takes to convert to E-85. It does not look like the TGP/TSTE would need much done to get it ready. I enjoy debates and discussions like this. To me if someone does not have an educated answer to a person's question they should sit down...read...and learn. If they see something they do not like the answer to then do some research...learn more and educate the rest. I am extremely interested in E-85 and it surroundings. I embrase change and wish more would do the same. That is most of the reason it has taken so long for it to surface yet again to actually be used. It has been around for a very long time...but oil was the answer for cost effectiveness. Boy has that changed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intlcutlass Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I love TGPilot He's like Mr.Wizard. Oh , and I agree 120% with everything he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I am not a know it all or a "wizard" by any means! I learn something new everyday. The problem so many have that I have seen is the fact they are closed minded. They allow someone to tell them, "it is not possible", and they lay down and take it for fact. Have seen that a TON in the TGP/TSTE world for the last 4 years...up until recently! Just because it does not work for one...does not mean someone else can't find a way to make it possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intlcutlass Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I am not a know it all or a "wizard" by any means! I learn something new everyday. The problem so many have that I have seen is the fact they are closed minded. They allow someone to tell them, "it is not possible", and they lay down and take it for fact. Have seen that a TON in the TGP/TSTE world for the last 4 years...up until recently! Just because it does not work for one...does not mean someone else can't find a way to make it possible. Look man.... I know your not a "know it all".....What I meant was you had the BEST comments, and obviously know a thing or two about gas. Me too, I had beans last night. I also hear people debating 87/93 octane in their cars (both n/a and forced induction), and when you comedown to it, EVEN ONCE YOU HAVE EXPLAINED IT, some people just don't get it.... Thats why when I read your comments, I was happy... I love reading logical, intelligent debates. Most people don't know what the octane ratings refer to (not here, just people in general). I understand that in some science class sombody probly burned a drop of each and had somehow concluded that the 93 was better because it left less "soot"? That soot is carbon, and sure a tiny percentage of it is left behind, but when the engines valves open to let the spent fuel/air out, most of that carbon goes along for the ride, to accumulate all along the insides of the exhaust manifolds, and the rest of the exhaust system. When you think about how many RPM's a car runs, even just sitting still, the fact that 94 is a "little" cleaner than 87 doesn't amount to a whole hellava lot. The way I see it, if you have a turbo, get the high octane, your pistons will thank you. If you have a n/a, get the shit gas, your wallet will thank you. I always enjoy reading your comments TGPilot....You know whats up.(thats not a hit on anyonle else, so don't start) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Well thanks man! Much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbird232 Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Aww! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Aww! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intlcutlass Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Aww! Blow me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbird232 Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteCarloChick Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 kinky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 You know Im not going to read through 3 pages of this, but a higher octane will burn out your fuel injectors faster since it burns hotter. Since thats basically what fuel cleaner is, higher octane than what your using. Thats why they say use every 3,000mi. because if you use more often youll probably burn out your injectors. For our cars, you will gain absolutly NOTHING. Higher octane was meant for more performance cars to stop pinging as well as a higher c/r. our cars are about 9.5:1 ( I know Gen II is, I think Gen I is like what 8:1?? ) 87 octane is a match for that, as you increase, ( to which you can only get away with about a max of 10.5:1 c/r on pump gas ) you need a higher octane to prevent pinging in performance engines. 12:1 on pump gas at sea-level densities is easily achievable with proper fueling and tuning...sorry. 3.1 and 2.8 N/A engines are running 8.9:1. The TGP/TSTE LG5 is 8.8:1. If the 3.4 DOHC is running 9.5:1 (which I know nothing about that motor) then at sea-level you are at about 90-91 octane. Most any gas stations I remember in Upstate NY and Maine (where I grew up) the highest octane at the pump was 96 (Mobil I recall had super 98 Octane in some areas). So that would end up being a mid-grade at most sea-level stations to get 90-91 octane? Up here you would run 85 because the compression ratio drops because of the altitude. Another thing that will increase detonation and need for higher octane is the difference between an iron head and an aluminum head. Iron heads will hold in heat much worse than an aluminum head. More heat in the combustion chamber the easier it is to detonate. There are many variables guys...but to run High Octane in a motor with less than 10:1 ratio (YES 0.5:1 cr difference is signifigant enough!) either on a N/A or final compression on a turbo/supercharged car is NOT necessary! Spend a few bucks and take it to a dyno (the same dyno each time ) to see if there is a power difference between High and Low octane fuels. Here is a perfect quote from another forum while I was looking for an "approximate" octane to compression ratio chart.... I don't think there is any easy answer to that question. Coolant temperature, valve and ignition timing, piston material, combustion chamber shape, even the type of spark plug used has a huge influence in the octane needed to keep an engine from detonating. I have seen guys putting 104 octane racing fuel in relatively mild 400hp street engines, and i know of engines that make over 800hp on 94 octane pump gas. I think its more of trial and error and how your combo works. At sea level, but Im no where near sea level. It also depends on how much timing you have to have. Like my dads car, has 12:1 c/r and runs about 40* of timing. He has to run 110 octane. But like you said, it depends on so many things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 This has to be one of the better threads we have had on this message board in a loooonnnnggg time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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