91GranSport Posted January 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2003 Oldsmobile was GM's "import-fighter" was mainly to compete with Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Mazda. Where would yall classify Oldsmobile. I always saw it as luxuary with sport, like mixing buick and pontiac Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ismellrealbad Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Oldsmobile was GM's "import-fighter" was mainly to compete with Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Mazda. Where would yall classify Oldsmobile. I always saw it as luxuary with sport, like mixing buick and pontiac Jon I think u hit it right on....the 3.5doch is/was a good example IMO. i also think they are trying to do that with pontiac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted January 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 I totally agree. People aren't buying American cars for two reasons: 1. They're absolutely boring to drive. 2. They don't have the same status as imports. With the exception of Cadillac and the Corvette, GM cars really are boring to drive and they lack character. IMO it doesnt matter if the car is hertiage, speciality or RWD -- people have to *like* driving them, to be seen in them. it has to be FUN. badging them with former cars' names (GTO) may help some, but isnt the only reason they're gonna buy 'em. GM cars have lacked in this area for long enough. thats why i brought attention to the XLR. now that's a car many executives are gonna wanna been seen in. lets hope its the sign of things to come.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ismellrealbad Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 I totally agree. People aren't buying American cars for two reasons: 1. They're absolutely boring to drive. 2. They don't have the same status as imports. With the exception of Cadillac and the Corvette, GM cars really are boring to drive and they lack character. i dont really see any exciting imports either. An 03 GTP excites me more than anything honda toyota, or ford (to throw in a domestic) is putting out. The few cars that interest me are a couple of nissans or from the import co's high priced brothers like acura and of course infinity. bmw and mercedes have some good shit out too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Oh? And America's #1 Best Selling CAR for many years... the Toyota Camry is FUN to drive??? Many reviews I've seen for the Camry have stated that it's an overall dull experience, but the car is built well. No, fun to drive doesn't sell cars. Fun to drive sells cars to enthusiasts, which is a niche market at best. As for that Cadillac XLR, it's extremely impractical, I don't think it'll sell well. They'll sell fewer of them than they sell Corvettes. Most people would probably buy an Escalade before they buy that. As a status symbol, the Escalade ranks equally as high, if not higher than the XLR. Plus, it can haul around a boatload of kids or haul home a whole bunch of antiques from Sotheby's. Can't do that with the XLR. Lack of angles is probably the ONLY thing I like about the current Buicks. :read: I curse at angles. :cuss: Boxy 80's styling, please go away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORBI Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 I always see everybody talking about imports, GM cars and even Fords but i notticed that everybody forgets to mentio Chryslers/Dodge they are domestic too and not as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 I have been involved in many heated topics on this issue since the dashing of Olds last year or has it been two already. Most were on the BCA & OCA forums. Olds history is huge and it has been many things over the years as well as the oldest American built car. theres lots of history that I cant quote because I might screw things up but Olds was as much GM's performance & experimental division as Pontiac , so thats all mispoken tales about Pontiac. Olds had its own competition for the GTO at the same time. The GTO was special no doubt but what was the 442 ? Theres so much that most of us dont know because the Olds & Buick models were rarer and just like you guys are saying about status. The GTO was on everyones lips but the 442 was just as much a beast. I'm only now learning more about all the various Buick and Olds models that were around during the 60's when I was growing up but all we knew about was GTO, Z28, Mustang, Cuda and so on. The Buick Wildcat coupes were awsome cars and were available with 4 speeds. Delta 88's had performance options that would give over 500 ft lb & 370 Pny's. The 66 Toronado was a complete experimental, highly developed, performance driven, bold ass Jetson body style , luxury Grand Touring car. 425ci 375 HorsePonys with a pre streached chain driven FWD auto that our cars are a direct decendent of. Backed by Buicks RWD Riviera GS that was also a kuxury American GT car. Both of theses cars bore the status that the Lexus and BMWs have today. Skylark GS ? 98 Regency LS Coupe & Buick Electras? Nearly a Cadallic without the gaudiness. All prestige cars. Heavier than a Chevy yes, less performance NOT. More expensive, yes. Then Buick was kickin BUTT in the 80's & produced some sweet FWD coupes with the torquey 3.8. Why now have they been castrated right down to a very Omish 4 dr. Centuy/Regal GS ? Whats GS besides the engine and faint reminder of the last Rivieras ass end? The Bonneville that lives now on the Aurora platform would have died in the 80's if it wasnt given the Buick 3.8 in 87. Why Olds - the sales leader and builder of the strongest V8's in the 70's developed nothing during the 80's is beyond me. All I can think of is the Quad 4 engine and the 307 that powered the last of the Buick and Olds RWD's & Station Wagons. Must be GM took Olds money from the 70's to develope Satchurin and purchase Snaab because Olds just rode on the Buick platforms and used Buick or Chevy engines except the Q4. There are educated people that know more about it than me and have all the stats. Olds sales were down but still above Satchurin and they only gave the new Olds "import fighter" a couple of years. It took the Japanese cars 2 decades to get a real firm hold. The guy running GM today said he would have tried something else beside complete killing of Olds but it was too late. There is no posts on the BCA about Buick being slated for gas chamber but predictions are up. Buick is selling fairly well but everyone is crying for some excitement and sex appeal. I believe it has been a master plan to just make them bland and finish with a wimper but thats my paranoid observation. I just really dont see how or why with all the great Buicks and Olds from the 80's & 90's they just couldnt get anything up for the 00's. thats what I base my "paranoid observation" on. Why? Corporate Castration ! I think GM's making a mistake if they think everyones going to step in line and just be another Impala or GrandPrix driver. Their going to take all the personality out of buying a car and people like myself are going to go elsewhere. They need to worry about total sales, variety, sex appeal , quality, performance and stop signaling out certain divisions as being a problem. One things for sure now - they WILL NOT make any money of their Oldsmobile "import fighter" investment now WILL THEY ! DAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastemcutlass Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Man I miss olds power even the little 307 had some power as seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 I couldn't agree more. Olds sold cars like crazy in the early 80's, was just downhill from like '86 on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godofthunder Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Olds as an import fighter? Thats only in recent years, right? And out of curriousity, Would nesc. people looking at Olds be the same as ones looking at imports? I would think chevy more than that. Olds usu. had a higher price than chevys. For example, I could have prob. gotten a lumina new cheaper than my CS new (my CS new was about 20k). What about olds of the past. I see them as experimental too. But I remember always hearing something a while back, you know like Pontiac = excitement, Buick was affordable lux, chevy was the working auto, and olds as the sport/lux. is this right? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastemcutlass Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 I prefer to think of it like what the maker of the olds/hurst was looking for " the executives hotrod" that guy nailed its disciption, you don't have to sacrifice driviblity and confort for performance. the new covettes finally got it right, you don't have to climb over the frame to get into the car and its very luxurious inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylerade Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 i dont really see any exciting imports either. i beg to differ. the 350z/G35 is pretty impressive. i hate minivans but you should see what nissan did with the quest's roof. perfect for sunny san diego (it IS coming into production -- not a concept). the japs are waking up and coming up with wild ideas -- why arent american companies? their concepts are neat, but slow to production. except for the XLR (impressive gadgetry), we're set to lag for another decade. the same can be said about buick i'm just thankful i'm holding onto a piece of their history -- and a good one at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted January 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 We'd be biased to say something like a GTP would excite us more than an RSX. American vehicles lack "character". That's why GM, Ford and Chrysler are going all retro to sell their cars. Because back in the '60s and '70s American cars actually had character to them. What's the difference between a Grand Prix GTP and a Regal GS? Not much. They might look different, and drive slightly different but overall it's the same Goddamn car and neither one actually has "character" to it. Not like in the '60s and '70s when divisions built their own engines. Is there a big difference between a Pontiac GTO and a Buick GS? Absolutely! Does either vehicle have "character"? Yes! That's what we need to sell cars. We have to stop using this cookie-cutter method of building cars. Unfortunately usin the cookie-cutter method saves a lot of money but in the long run we don't sell a damn thing and we lose Buick. i dont really see any exciting imports either. An 03 GTP excites me more than anything honda toyota, or ford (to throw in a domestic) is putting out. The few cars that interest me are a couple of nissans or from the import co's high priced brothers like acura and of course infinity. bmw and mercedes have some good shit out too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted January 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 Shawn, you mention you hate angles. How do you feel about the '87 Buick GNX? That's kind of boxy but still one of my all-time favourite GM cars. What about the '03 Park Avenue? Very curvy, another beautiful Buick. As far as drivability or "fun-to-drive factor", all cars have to have some "fun" to it or at least they must be easy to drive. The Camry is a boring vehicle to drive, I used to drive one around all the time. They're boring as hell but they're easy to drive. Look at some of these imports that we can't stand so much. Yeah they look like shit but some of them actually are fun to drive. My friend's Tiburon with a V-6 and a 6-speed is an absolute blast to drive. And with the way things are going I think Hyundai's going to be selling more Tiburons than GM's going to be selling Regals. Oh? And America's #1 Best Selling CAR for many years... the Toyota Camry is FUN to drive??? Many reviews I've seen for the Camry have stated that it's an overall dull experience, but the car is built well. No, fun to drive doesn't sell cars. Fun to drive sells cars to enthusiasts, which is a niche market at best. As for that Cadillac XLR, it's extremely impractical, I don't think it'll sell well. They'll sell fewer of them than they sell Corvettes. Most people would probably buy an Escalade before they buy that. As a status symbol, the Escalade ranks equally as high, if not higher than the XLR. Plus, it can haul around a boatload of kids or haul home a whole bunch of antiques from Sotheby's. Can't do that with the XLR. Lack of angles is probably the ONLY thing I like about the current Buicks. :read: I curse at angles. :cuss: Boxy 80's styling, please go away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted January 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 I've owned GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda and Audi. The least problematic of them was my current Audi, while the one with the most problems was the Chrysler. The Audi and the Chrysler I bought brand new. Chrysler is crap. They only thing about Chrysler is they're the trendsetters when it comes to domestics. They go out and they make cool looking cars that are decent to drive. Out of The Big Three, they are the ones who are always head of their time when it comes to new innovations and new ideas. It's too bad Chrysler's build quality is still shit, otherwise they would be making a shitload more money than they are now. The only thing GM has going for it is that it has a technological showcase of products that they put into their vehicles. For example, OnStar, Cadillac's NightVision and the Seville's (and Corvette's) Magnetic Ride Handling. I always see everybody talking about imports, GM cars and even Fords but i notticed that everybody forgets to mentio Chryslers/Dodge they are domestic too and not as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted January 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 Steve, that's an excellent observation. Like I mentioned, we kicked ass in the '60s, '70s and mid '80s. Now we're getting our asses kicked. Back in the "good old days" our divisions had styling, character and most of all they were a blast to drive. Given the raising costs of ownership as well as safety concerns, our vehicles have thousands of limitations and factors which will strip them of what makes them great cars. If we can only work around those limitations and factors and start actually spending money on R&D, we'd actually come up with some cool cars. It's sad to see that Buick eventually go, like Olds it has a history to it. It's time for GM to start building wicked "GNX" or "Wildcat" style Buicks that will appeal to the masses while keeping them fuel efficient, safe and reliable. I have been involved in many heated topics on this issue since the dashing of Olds last year or has it been two already. Most were on the BCA & OCA forums. Olds history is huge and it has been many things over the years as well as the oldest American built car. theres lots of history that I cant quote because I might screw things up but Olds was as much GM's performance & experimental division as Pontiac , so thats all mispoken tales about Pontiac. Olds had its own competition for the GTO at the same time. The GTO was special no doubt but what was the 442 ? Theres so much that most of us dont know because the Olds & Buick models were rarer and just like you guys are saying about status. The GTO was on everyones lips but the 442 was just as much a beast. I'm only now learning more about all the various Buick and Olds models that were around during the 60's when I was growing up but all we knew about was GTO, Z28, Mustang, Cuda and so on. The Buick Wildcat coupes were awsome cars and were available with 4 speeds. Delta 88's had performance options that would give over 500 ft lb & 370 Pny's. The 66 Toronado was a complete experimental, highly developed, performance driven, bold ass Jetson body style , luxury Grand Touring car. 425ci 375 HorsePonys with a pre streached chain driven FWD auto that our cars are a direct decendent of. Backed by Buicks RWD Riviera GS that was also a kuxury American GT car. Both of theses cars bore the status that the Lexus and BMWs have today. Skylark GS ? 98 Regency LS Coupe & Buick Electras? Nearly a Cadallic without the gaudiness. All prestige cars. Heavier than a Chevy yes, less performance NOT. More expensive, yes. Then Buick was kickin BUTT in the 80's & produced some sweet FWD coupes with the torquey 3.8. Why now have they been castrated right down to a very Omish 4 dr. Centuy/Regal GS ? Whats GS besides the engine and faint reminder of the last Rivieras ass end? The Bonneville that lives now on the Aurora platform would have died in the 80's if it wasnt given the Buick 3.8 in 87. Why Olds - the sales leader and builder of the strongest V8's in the 70's developed nothing during the 80's is beyond me. All I can think of is the Quad 4 engine and the 307 that powered the last of the Buick and Olds RWD's & Station Wagons. Must be GM took Olds money from the 70's to develope Satchurin and purchase Snaab because Olds just rode on the Buick platforms and used Buick or Chevy engines except the Q4. There are educated people that know more about it than me and have all the stats. Olds sales were down but still above Satchurin and they only gave the new Olds "import fighter" a couple of years. It took the Japanese cars 2 decades to get a real firm hold. The guy running GM today said he would have tried something else beside complete killing of Olds but it was too late. There is no posts on the BCA about Buick being slated for gas chamber but predictions are up. Buick is selling fairly well but everyone is crying for some excitement and sex appeal. I believe it has been a master plan to just make them bland and finish with a wimper but thats my paranoid observation. I just really dont see how or why with all the great Buicks and Olds from the 80's & 90's they just couldnt get anything up for the 00's. thats what I base my "paranoid observation" on. Why? Corporate Castration ! I think GM's making a mistake if they think everyones going to step in line and just be another Impala or GrandPrix driver. Their going to take all the personality out of buying a car and people like myself are going to go elsewhere. They need to worry about total sales, variety, sex appeal , quality, performance and stop signaling out certain divisions as being a problem. One things for sure now - they WILL NOT make any money of their Oldsmobile "import fighter" investment now WILL THEY ! DAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted January 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 Olds are GM's import-fighter for a while, I believe. I'm not so sure about the '60s, '70s and '80s though. Olds are priced higher because people who want to purchase an import generally spend more money than someone purchasing a domestic. Olds was to keep GM owners from straying away from GM and buying an import. Olds as an import fighter? Thats only in recent years, right? And out of curriousity, Would nesc. people looking at Olds be the same as ones looking at imports? I would think chevy more than that. Olds usu. had a higher price than chevys. For example, I could have prob. gotten a lumina new cheaper than my CS new (my CS new was about 20k). What about olds of the past. I see them as experimental too. But I remember always hearing something a while back, you know like Pontiac = excitement, Buick was affordable lux, chevy was the working auto, and olds as the sport/lux. is this right? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted January 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 I too think that the Nissan 350Z is a wicked car. I'd like to see them build a more performance-oriented "350ZX" twin turbo. Nissan nearly went bankrupt not too long ago but they got their shit together and now they're doing damn well. GM has the same ability but they just insist on losing money and complaining about it. i dont really see any exciting imports either. i beg to differ. the 350z/G35 is pretty impressive. i hate minivans but you should see what nissan did with the quest's roof. perfect for sunny san diego (it IS coming into production -- not a concept). the japs are waking up and coming up with wild ideas -- why arent american companies? their concepts are neat, but slow to production. except for the XLR (impressive gadgetry), we're set to lag for another decade. the same can be said about buick i'm just thankful i'm holding onto a piece of their history -- and a good one at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 29, 2003 Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 Shawn, you mention you hate angles. How do you feel about the '87 Buick GNX? That's kind of boxy but still one of my all-time favourite GM cars. What about the '03 Park Avenue? Very curvy, another beautiful Buick. As far as drivability or "fun-to-drive factor", all cars have to have some "fun" to it or at least they must be easy to drive. The Camry is a boring vehicle to drive, I used to drive one around all the time. They're boring as hell but they're easy to drive. Look at some of these imports that we can't stand so much. Yeah they look like shit but some of them actually are fun to drive. My friend's Tiburon with a V-6 and a 6-speed is an absolute blast to drive. And with the way things are going I think Hyundai's going to be selling more Tiburons than GM's going to be selling Regals. Well, since you asked, I stray from popular opinion on the GNX. To me, they are butt ass ugly. They're not "kind of" boxy, they're the epitomy of boxy. When I think "boxy", G-body is the first thing I see in my head. Granted, they're the best looking of the G-bodies, but IMO, that's not saying much. I have no desire to ever own one, or any G-body for that matter. I know they're fast, but I just can't get past the looks. Plus, the structural design is crap. If a G-body and a Ford Focus collided into each other, the Focus occupants would probably be way better off. I don't think the "fun to drive" factor or even "easy to drive" really has any influence on sales. SUV's and fullsize pickups aren't particularily fun to drive, at least not the kind of "fun to drive" that you're talking about. They ride rough, lean like crazy in corners, and handle poorly. Some handle so poorly that quick evasive maneuvers can flip one over. The only "fun" in driving one is just the fact that you're bigger than everyone else, and for some people that feels "fun". Neither are these beasts easy to drive. It's certainly not easy to get in and out of tight parking spaces in a fullsize extended cab pickup (which is actually longer and has a longer wheelbase than a Ford Excursion). On Sunday, I watched a woman take no less than 8-passes to get out of a tight space in an 88-98 body style Chevy fullsize pickup! She even had her passenger get out to guide her! Nor is it easy to get in and out of one at stock 4x4 ride height. Yet fullsize pickups and SUV's are #1 in sales for US automakers. Don't get me wrong, I like driving my truck, but it's nowhere near as fun to drive, nor easy to drive as a W-body. Yet, the truck is the one I could sell easily because it's in HIGH demand. I had to buy a newer one because older ones, even at $1000-2000 over Edmund's Retail price, never stuck around long enough for me to even test drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 29, 2003 Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 Oh yeah, I like the 03 Park Avenue okay as far as looks go. I'm not a big fan of the triple porthole vents though. They look like a tacked on afterthought, a lame attempt at looking retro. The rest of the car looks fine to me. I'm more excited about the looks of the new GTO. It's curvy and round, and has a very defined wedge shape. That's more my taste, I like a very obvious wedge shape where the front end is lower while the rear end is higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastemcutlass Posted January 29, 2003 Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 AHHH SHIT, Your wreckin my buzz Can I say flame. When I think of g-body I think of the last of the true muscle cars built tough and good looking, when you see a g-body you think mean not pussy like most people think of w-bodies. I put my heart and sole into my g ride and every body loved it and still do so when someone comes along with a little cutty and doesn't respect its ansestors I get pissed. what's next the 442 the true definition of brute horsepower, that was more of a box on wheels but it was a damn attractive car. ASSHOLE (Sorry to anybody I offend its a really touchy subject, cuz I miss my g-body ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastemcutlass Posted January 29, 2003 Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 gnatgosplat have you ever driven a g-body, their great and I'm sorry but a focus is a clown car that would get its ass kicked and would use technology like airbags to save lives, but from personal experience I got t-boned by a f-250 going around 45 at 3:00 and by 9:00 she was back on the road with a new door not perfect till I took it to the body shop( and got the frame and rear quarter fixed) but served the purpose. and could you do that with a focus, no it would be taking a trip to the bone yard were it belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastemcutlass Posted January 29, 2003 Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 Now that, that is off my chest I feel much better. My friends say shit all the time just to hear me go off the deep end, and sure as shit I do every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted January 29, 2003 Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 Sorry man, but it was asked and that's my honest opinion. Hell yeah I have driven one, lots! My wife (way before we were married) had a silver '83 with a tired 307 and matching silver/gray landau top and aftermarket aluminum wheels on it. It's what she drove when I met her. I hated that thing, it was ugly, square, and just an eyesore. It handled like a yacht and the handling was very dead. It was a ghetto cruiser down to the plush squishy seats with buttons on it, like an antique sofa. It had disgusting fake woodgrain and chrome-trimmed shiny black plastic and hideous chrome knobs. My friend and I have similar taste in cars and we made fun of it so much she finally decided to buy a new car (the '88 International). I don't know how she did it, but she put up with our crap for 9-months. Anyway, NO, they are not built well. I saw one get rear-ended by an '89 body style accord (4dr with the pop-up headlights). Nothing really damaged on the Accord, but the whole rear end of the G-body Cutlass was bent downwards 20-degrees or so and creased above the rear wheel (that's where it bent). Totaled out the Cutlass, but not the Accord, I wouldn't say that's built very well. Plus, there's a gov't standard now where all cars must withstand an 18" drop on its top without structural collapse. A W-body (and all newer cars built since) can withstand this test, but a G-body will collapse down to the door sills, and that's no exaggeration. You can call me whatever you want, but it's not going to change my opinion of them. :read: BTW, that Lincoln in the pic is one boxy ugly mutha too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPRACER Posted January 29, 2003 Report Share Posted January 29, 2003 I have had several G bodies, the only thing I don't like is that they tend to rust very badly where I live and it's almost impossible to find a good one anymore. I owned an '86 Cutlass all black with the wire wheel covers chrome trim and red velour interior, FLAME away, man I loved that car! Had a factory 350 don't know if that was rare or not, I also had an 81 turbo Monte Carlo, wish I had kept that one too. I have an 83 malibu ex-police car with just 53,000 kilometers on it she's a keeper, absolutely mint. Was a staff car and not a patrol unit but it still has all the goodies. A mint '86 Grand Prix Areo will always be on the want list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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