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Here's a picture from back when the black car was in better days.

I'll have to find some pictures. Best ones I have are from 10+ years ago when the black one was in far better shape. Long story short, engine blew up, it sat outside. Then I ended up with it and moved it to indoor storage but the time outside had already taken its toll. Right now its very dusty and sad looking and buried in the back of storage so its hard to even see it right now. Last couple weeks I've been daily driving my red one. Made me realize how much I've missed the turbo cars. I think technically speaking red/gray was the most rare color combo. If you'd have asked me years ago I'd have been on board with the gray interior all day long. Now I think the tan works with the gold wheels and badging. I'm torn because the chassis of the black car IS that much better. But I've put insane amounts of work into making the red one as good as it presently is. Not sure if rarity of the color combos really moves me like it would used to. Maybe I can use that to my advantage to get more money out of the black one. Some guy on FB wanted to buy both but wanted to pay a very small sum for them. I dono I think they tend to wear arrest me red better then black. I think whatever happens the sale of one and a bunch of parts will fund the restore of the other. I'm still very much torn as the black one when it was running really drove fantastically. I'm just rambling at this point.

If you like the red, keep the red one. It will be easier. I would go the torturous route because I would want the black/gray cloth one. That is what I want if I can find one. Or maybe the red one and swap to the gray cloth.

For me, definitely the Black one. It being Black...and having Medium Slate Gray cloth, that is uber rare in the TGP World. You know me, rarity is a big deal and that one is definitely incredibly rare and sought after. I firmly believe that even though it's not in the better shape, you'll regret selling it later.

Just my $.02....The one you enjoy driving the most is the one you keep. There is something to be said about a mechanically sorted, but less than visually perfect vehicle that you can simply jump in and drive without worry. As much as I hate to say it, any 1st Gen W that isn't a total beater is relatively rare these days. Individual rarities within that are almost irrelevant when it comes to market value of these cars and I would go for the colour combo I like better, rather than the rarer combo every single time.

If you like red better, I'd say keep the red. At least, from my POV, color is very important and I really like black. I know it's boring, but as an adult, I've only ever bought black cars as I like it so much. I'm not so big on rarity either, and I think you're right that the tan interior goes pretty good with the gold wheels. If you're not as hung up on color as I am, the next thing I'd find important is the body, more specifically, body parts that you can't easily swap like quarter panels. Does one have previous body work on a quarter panel, body filler, etc. while the other has clean original quarters? Body fillers might not give you any trouble for many decades if done well, just a skim coat, and stored indoors. I just feel like there's a lot of value in a really straight car. Other considerations, how much unobtainium do you still need for each car? Do you have the time to get the black one running, or will you get to it "someday" - but "someday" just never seems to get here (that's the story behind all my projects ).

i was gonna whip this out but 94 olds beat me to it

So as some of you know I've recently pulled my red 90' TGP from its 9 years long slumber. I've been enjoying it quite a bit. Which has made me rethink selling all my TGP stuff... for the time being. However... I don't think I need 2 of these damn things. So help me decide which stays and which goes. Red 1990 TGP: Pros: Red/Tan leather/Sunroof/CD player 151,000 Miles Has the engine from my old wrecked TGP in it so approximately 40-50,000 fewer miles than the chassis, Runs great. recently rebuilt transmission Presently Running and driving Vacuum Brake converted Have brand new Turbo/Pontiac emblems in a box for it Body is pretty clean rust wise, no immediate concerns Rear subframe converted to 2g lat links 96' Front and rear brakes Cons: Needs a paint job Been in a few accidents, repaired... not the best. Could really use an entire Driver side B pillar replacement (have most of those parts) but is passable enough as is. Only original body panels are the pass door and fender. literally every other part has been replaced for one reason or another Black 1990 TGP: Pros: Black/Gray cloth/Tape deck I think 110,000 or someplace about there miles body is straight as an arrow Used to be owned by @LukeZ34so it has forum history 94' rear brakes Have a supposedly good engine on a stand for it. Cons: Also could use a paint job, not as bad but not good either Been off the road since about 2011, presently stored indoors Needs an engine - It ran but had very minimal oil pressure. Will need the fuel system totally flushed before it gets running. Still has PowerMaster brakes - worked last time it ran but it needs to go regardless. Obviously the black car is the better base on paper. But my irrational part loves how they look in red. Whats you guys take?

Jiggity getting a turbo first gen?!?!

Both are pretty clean underneath. Not Southern California clean but pretty good - I have no concerns about their integrity. Obviously the black one isn't looking as hot now that it sat out side for a time. It likely won't be available till next spring at soonest as its in the very back of a pole barn and given that its October its probably well blocked in by other cars for winter storage by now. If you're interested PM me and we can take it from there. I have all sorts of parts that could be included including an engine. Its for sure not drivable without completely flushing the fuel out at minimum.

Cloth.

My opinion would be to keep the car that is running and driving and start to do the body and paint work on it. I'm not sure how bad the exterior on the red TGP is. Body work can get expensive. I guess I would need some pictures of the red TGP.

It never dawned on me before THAT was the reason for the max brightness setting....but it does make a ton of sense now that I think about it. Pretty sure My 89 stayed on max brightness when I had it, as the automatic headlights kicked on before I would consider it to be dark enough to warrant turning the lights on....making the digital dash too dim on any other setting.

He put the 94 style next to the instrument cluster with the knob? I always liked the pushbutton one better looks and uniqueness-wise, but I didn't realize it was functionally superior as well. The manual for the 94 doesn't mention having a MAX setting. I guess they didn't think it was needed because digital dash wasn't available in 94.

I just want to update everyone that it was the starter that was the problem.

Move the slider all the way up to MAX, right before INT. It has its own detent. Grand Prix should have the ability too, but it says to move it to HI. Don't have a GP any more so can't verify it's truly 100% as bright as lights-off brightness, but the Cutlass one definitely is. That VFD is scorching bright at night.

I reckon you could find an entire car with a good LH0 for less then the cost of a reman engine. Then you can at least drive it and put a known quantity in the car I'm so scared of reman things these days, you might get something good, you might get a even bigger disaster then what you have already.

Actually its been holding up great. I've got over 20k miles on the swap now over 2 years. Nothing major, a couple ripped cv boots which may be because they were junkyard sourced. I highly recommend adding a HTOB spacer. ZZP sells them for around $50. Sits behind the HTOB and moves it closer to the clutch by 1/4" for earlier engagement and longer life. Aside from engineering the trans mount, the hardest part is getting the clutch pedal mounted and situated. The pedal arm needs to be cut & welded into proper position as well. As far as the mount, the low-profile mount I fabbed up works great. Only modification I made was adding rubber bushings under the nuts at the bottom to further insulate the mount from the frame. On an aluminum subframe, it might have to be done a bit different. Might be able to drill two holes and bolt it in the same way, but I haven't been hands-on with an 04+ subframe so I can't say for sure. I'm not a fan of the modified 4T65E bracket method that requires tubular control arms as the mount sits outside the frame. An extra $650 that could be spent elsewhere. There really are half a dozen ways you could fab up a mount but I can say for sure the one I made does the job. 3/16 steel plate holds up well so far. I have also just finished taking the time to document the changes to the tune that are highly recommended for a manual swap: Idle speeds in-gear changed to match P/N as its going to be wired to be in D at all times now. ( I actually added a toggle switch to change between forcing it in D or P, since P is needed for a crank relearn procedure if you need it) DTC codes changed And finally zeroing out all the auto trans stuff:

With his Black car, I've only seen 4 with Gray interior. One of the 4 was a red car. This is 1 of the 4 gray interior cars. It was about an hour South of me at a private yard. It still might be there. Makes me incredibly sad.

All my Cutlasses had the feature where you could force it to full brightness at night, essentially overriding "night mode" with park/headlamps on. I can't remember if the TGP was lacking that feature or not.