216,000 mile L27 Teardown Pics

[BXX]

Decided to tear down Andrei's old L27 to see what the insides looked like, and its easier to scrap when I can load up all the pieces without breaking my back:lol:

 

So lets start her off, intake was already removed as with the accessories.

 

Sitting on the stand... Awaiting its total destruction.

 

 

Water pump off, yay, free good water pump for my S2 build!!

 

 

Cam and Crank sensors

 

 

 

Balancer removed via an air hammer and air saw:lol: I didnt have a puller for the 3800 balancer

 

 

Camshaft interrupter magnet. Makes a good spare for my S2

 

 

Block drain plug location, one on each side

 

 

Yucky oil pan:lol: All bolts removed. They are 3/8", not 10mm!!!

 

 

Oil pan off, hmmm, what do we see in here??

 

 

Hmm, where did this come from??

 

 

 

More chunky stuff... More on that later

 

 

Timing cover off, oil pump is internal behind the plate held on by 5 torx bolts

 

 

Cylinder head off, pretty clean.

 

 

 

Hmm, something wasn't running correctly...

 

 

Timing setup, timing marks lined up at Cyl 1 @ TDC

 

 

 

Holy hell, this is one shot timing chain tensioner!!

 

 

Timing marks from Cam to Balance shaft.

 

 

Fuck balance shafts.

 

 

Lifter valley with lifter retainers out.

 

 

Now we know what was fuckered for sure!!! Ouch!

 

 

Cam destroyed..

 

 

 

Flexplate loosened and held on by a few bolts so I can rotate the bottom end

 

 

Knock sensor, front of block. S1 engines only have 1, S2 engines have 2

 

 

Pistons out with rod caps and bearings

 

 

Bearings are definately bad, pitted, scored. Shows high mileage and high rpms

 

 

 

Crank... meh, its bad

 

 

Holy fuxored main bearings!! This engine prolly had barely any oil pressure left. Definately a old worn tired engine.

 

 

 

 

Crank journals

 

 

Crank out, showing other main bearings

 

 

Closeup of a shot main bearing

 

 

 

Number 2 thrust bearing about wasted as well

 

 

Cylinder bores, all were about the same, heavy piston scuffing, pistons showed heavy scuffing too.

 

 

 

On another note, I didnt get pics, but the oil pump was shot and worn. Clearences were at around .030" which is way too much play..

 

So there ya have it, high rpm, heavy abuse, high mileage turns an engine to junk. If it werent abused at all and maintained the way Andrie maintained it, it woulda easily turned over 300,000 miles:thumbsup:

Edited January 22, 2011 by BXX

[Timm]

Thats really cool to see all the internals! I was always wondering how how to replace the cam bearings! Look pretty easy! That's crazy seeing those bearings so worn, and I can't believe that lifter froze up like that! Curious what would cause that? But thanks for the pics!!!

 

-Timm

 

edit- also, I never knew they got rid of those plastic coolant elbows on the series 3's!

It's good to know GM can fix the problems they've had for years on the 3800's, then stop their production. lol

Edited January 22, 2011 by Timm

[xtremerevolution]

Can you save me some of those pistons and conrods? Souveniers basically.

 

Otherwise, toward the end I overheated it twice in california heat and shredding that first lifter probably caused a lot of the more severe damage, but it definitely looks worn and tired. All those miles of heavy abuse took their toll. I bought the car with 61k, so I would definitely say this motor took a whole lot of heavy abuse. Well done L27. I'm so glad I didn't choose to replace the cam and lifters, lol.

 

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk

[xtremerevolution]

Thats really cool to see all the internals! I was always wondering how how to replace the cam bearings! Look pretty easy! That's crazy seeing those bearings so worn, and I can't believe that lifter froze up like that! Curious what would cause that? But thanks for the pics!!!

 

-Timm

 

edit- also, I never knew they got rid of those plastic coolant elbows on the series 3's!

It's good to know GM can fix the problems they've had for years on the 3800's, then stop their production. lol

 

Actually this is a series 1 3800. No plastic coolant elbows. GM cheaped out on the series 2.

 

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk

[BXX]

Timm, this is the L27, not the L26. Its a Series 1 3800.

 

Cam bearings, when the engine out, not too bad to replace, however it does require a cam bearing remover and installer which a decent one costs around $200

 

The lifter isnt froze at all. Its chewed up from the cam being destroyed. Everything appears to be from a valve float problem or from the new heads he installed with newfound stiffer springs causing too much strain on the lifter and cam.

 

Here in a bit I will get up a thread on my 129,000 mile L36 teardown. It showed signs of hydrolock but a good bottom end.

[xtremerevolution]

Timm, this is the L27, not the L26. Its a Series 1 3800.

 

Cam bearings, when the engine out, not too bad to replace, however it does require a cam bearing remover and installer which a decent one costs around $200

 

The lifter isnt froze at all. Its chewed up from the cam being destroyed. Everything appears to be from a valve float problem or from the new heads he installed with newfound stiffer springs causing too much strain on the lifter and cam.

 

Here in a bit I will get up a thread on my 129,000 mile L36 teardown. It showed signs of hydrolock but a good bottom end.

 

Actually, I have pictures of my exploded lifter somewhere in this powertrain section from last year. The lifter basically cracked, and the camshaft lobe grinded against it till it opened up and all the needle bearings fell out and that's when things got bad. The valve then didn't have enough clearance, and that's when I realized what the problem is. Some of those pieces down there are parts of what's missing from the old lifter, and some parts are broken bits of the needle bearings, and whatever else was shaved off of the new lifter and the cam lobe. The new heads didn't have anything to do with it. It only accelerated the problem that was already there due to there now being stiffer (newer) valve springs on the low mileage heads.

 

Bob, I'd also like to keep that cam if you don't mind. Would make for some nice decoration. The pushrods are new, so keep them if you want to. I guess you can throw a few pistons and the cam in with the 5 speed parts pile. That is of course, if you don't mind.

[Addicted to eaton]

thanks for the thread! pretty cool!

[Jonpro03]

Those cylinder walls are like nails on a chalkboard to me.

[AL]

Wow... That makes me wanna tear down an engine and do the same... Why are you gonna tear down a good block? I could use one... I might take all my spare parts and build a motor

[BXX]

Wow... That makes me wanna tear down an engine and do the same... Why are you gonna tear down a good block? I could use one... I might take all my spare parts and build a motor

 

This L27 is scrap. My L36 I tore down cause I wanna rebuild it from the ground up. It was perfectly good sans the intake, but odds are under boost It wouldnt have lasted over a year with my heavy foot.

 

Andrei, Ill keep a few souveniers held back for ya in your

[AL]

Yah, I was referring to the L36... If there is any L36 stuff you need just let me know I bet I have it

[BXX]

Yah, I was referring to the L36... If there is any L36 stuff you need just let me know I bet I have it

 

Naw, im good. it was a complete engine. I need L67 heads and valvecovers:lol:

[slick]

Doesn't surprise me one bit. Was beat up and abused a lot.

[Timm]

Wow! I've never seen the internals of a series I 3800. From the intake down it almost looks identical besides the knock sensor location, and the oil filter adapter on it!

 

From my understanding, the series I was completely different between the series II/III. But from all the pics, it looks like a LOT of parts were minutely "redesigned".

 

With that front cover, does it bolt up to a series II/III block? same flywheel? Same balance shaft? looking into the V's Valley is looks nearly identical as well!

 

Thank you again for all the pics and info!!!

 

-Timm

[BXX]

They are completely different engines. I dont recall them sharing any internal parts. The S1 is a talldeck engine. S2/S3 are shorter decks to reduce height and also have better low end power.

 

S1s also have a much weaker bottom end compared to the S2/S3. You can tell the engineers were really focused on bottom end regidity. The mains were completely redesigned.

 

I gotta quit being lazy and get my L36 teardown pics up sometime.

[Night Fury]

How about NOW!?

[BXX]

Neh, too tired to do anything that requires more than 2 working brain cells:lol:

 

I may get to it tomorrow if I dont decided to start tearing into my CS

[Night Fury]

DO. IT. NOW!!

[xtremerevolution]

They are completely different engines. I dont recall them sharing any internal parts. The S1 is a tall deck engine. S2/S3 are shorter decks to reduce height and also have better low end power.

 

S1s also have a much weaker bottom end compared to the S2/S3. You can tell the engineers were really focused on bottom end regidity. The mains were completely redesigned.

 

I gotta quit being lazy and get my L36 teardown pics up sometime.

 

They're actually similar in a lot of ways. Many things bolt up, but you're right in that is a taller deck engine. The deck height is 1" taller on the S1 over the S2 3800. The reason for the shortened deck height was to reduce weight. In addition, the valve timing is different. The S1 bottom end design is a superior design to the S2 due to the fact that the pistons will stay at TDC for longer. There was a guy on here a while back who was attempting to make a S1/S2 hybrid, with the S1 bottom end and the S2 top end. The difficulties were the need for a lower intake manifold spacer due to the deck height difference, and a custom camshaft. Otherwise, the heads bolted on perfectly.

 

The bottom end isn't very strong indeed, and that's a result of the pistons. Aussie guys with the commodores have pulled 400whp+ on turbo S1 3800's with nothing more than upgraded pistons. The aftermarket for these engines was nonexistent in the USA due to these engines being installed in only buicks and bonnevilles.

 

The bottom end power is actually pretty close Bob. I drove my sister in law's L36 96 Regal and constantly compared the power to my L27, and I can honestly say that the L27 pulled harder on the bottom end (likely due to the mods I had, but still). They're rated within 5lb-ft of each other in torque spec, while the L36 has a much better top end. The reason for all this is that the L27 heads don't flow for shit without some mild porting.

 

I'd own another L27 powered car in a heartbeat, and as a daily driver, I'll take an L27 over an L36 any day. Through working on an L36 Regal and my L27 Regal, I've concluded that everything is easier to do on the L27.

[cmjust0]

I hate that my first post on this forum is going to be a 'lazarus' where I raise a super old thread from the dead but I've searched and searched for an answer to a very specific question about the L27, and the pics here -- if I'm seeing correctly -- may have just answered it..

 

A little background.. My dad had an '86 Century w/ a 3.8L SFI, and everything about that engine was great -- except the aluminum cam gear w/ the plastic teeth. He grenaded the teeth off that thing at 130k mi, had it replaced and a valve job done, but did drop the oil pan and the teeth strippins' clogged up the screen, etc.. Not good.

 

So then just the other day, I picked up a really nice little '92 Riviera w/ a 3800 Series I/TPI (an L27) that's been really well maintained, for $1,750.. When I told my dad, the first thing he said was DO THE TIMING CHAIN! I got to talking with my brother (former pro/ASE mechanic) and he said it's a big concern *only* if the Series I 3800 also had that composite cam gear.. I've looked and looked, but I've yet to find any resource that definitively says YES it's composite or NO it's all-steel.

 

But then I found this thread.

 

Now, from the pictures, that cam gear doesn't *appear* to be a composite with plastic teeth.. It looks all-steel to me. So that's encouraging.. But, just to be sure, I have two questions for the tearer-downer:

 

1) Was that timing gear all steel?

2) Was the timing gear replaced, or was that original? (judging by the tensioner, I could guess -- but I'm not going to! )

 

Thanks so much for posting these pics, btw.. Very, very cool to be able to hop online and take a look at what my little daily driver's guts look like!

[White93z34]

would an 86' of been the LN3 not the L27?

[cmjust0]

Actually, based on what I could gather, the '86 3.8L SFI was actually pre-LN3.. This is all according to wikipedia, so it could be COMPLETELY WRONG but it looks like GM developed the 3.8L/231ci FWD motor with MPFI in 1984.. In 1986 -- the model year of the Century my dad had -- they introduced SFI in that same motor.. The LN3 3800 MPFI came out in '88, followed by the L27 3800 TPI in '91. (Mine's a '92 3800 TPI) And then the Series II came out in '95, and the Series III sometime around 2004..

 

Again -- that's according to wikipedia.

 

So, really, I suppose one could say that the L27 I have in my car now is two generations beyond the '86 that grenaded on my dad. Whether they went to an all-steel cam gear somewhere in those two generations is what I'm trying to figure out.

 

BTW, I just gotta say that I wish more engines these days were cultivated the way the 3800 was.. By the time GM was producing the last of their 3800 Series III engines in 2008, they had almost 25 years worth of engineering experience and real-world, everyday driving feedback to work with. That, I believe, is why these motors are so exceptional, and that's precisely why I went looking for one -- high mileage be damned! -- when I went looking for an inexpensive, economical, comfortable, reliable, but still FUN daily driver, and I found exactly that all wrapped up in a super nice little coupe Riviera..

 

That daggone car has hellatious comfortable 14-way adjustable seats, tilt, cruise, power everything, an ambient temp sensor, auto climate control, it auto-dims the rear view mirror, electric trunk and gas door actuators, self leveling rear suspension... Heck, it even has a driver's airbag and antilock brakes! And it *still* gets around 25mpg, combined! AND IT'S A 1992! I've had people who ride in that car and say "Wow, I didn't know cars had all this in 1992!"

 

Now....find me an econobox for $1,750 that does all that, and I'll eat my own shorts!

[xtremerevolution]

Its all all steel cam gear. This was my old engine. Original timing chain and cam gear. Actually, everything below the heads was original. Its a lifetime bottom end that, if taken care of, lasts forever.

 

I happened to have overheated it 3-4 times, and I somehow I grenaded a lifter roller, scored that cam lobe, and that was the end of it.

Edited October 7, 2011 by xtremerevolution

[GEN1Z34]

To add.. The Series II-III cylinder head castings are also more hollow for weight savings..

 

I have a brand new set of S2's sitting on my shelf if you need pics..

 

Also the only difference in l36 and l67 heads is tighter springs and injector bungs..

 

L36 heads have the bung castings but no injector holes milled into them..

 

The castings are identical and so are the valve diameters and port diameters between the two..

 

Just my .02

 

Pre S1's were also BOP blocks, where as the S1,2,3's have the 60* v6 bell patern..

Edited October 7, 2011 by GEN1Z34

[cmjust0]

Its all all steel cam gear. This was my old engine. Original timing chain and cam gear. Actually, everything below the heads was original. Its a lifetime bottom end that, if taken care of, lasts forever.

 

I happened to have overheated it 3-4 times, and I somehow I grenaded a lifter roller, scored that cam lobe, and that was the end of it.

 

Thanks so much! You wouldn't believe how hard I've looked to try and find this information... There seems to be quite a bit of confusion over what makes a Series-I vs. LN3's vs. the older 3.8 FWD, and that doesn't even get into the cam gear itself.. And to further confuse things, at some point they apparently teflon-coated the teeth which apparently made them look a bit like the plastic/nylon teeth, so there are supposed 'sightings' of the dreaded nylon teeth way up in the years.. Suffice it to say it's a huge relief to know I can focus on getting some other things on this car dealt with, without having to worry over the cam gear..

 

For what it's worth, I really do hate that the knowledge came at the expense of your engine.. If it helps, I really, really appreciate it and I plan to study these photographs quite a bit!

 

Thanks again!