god910 Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Okay, so Mitch (manualturbo) delivered the car today. W/O a title I might add, defeating the purpose of me having the car. :shock: But that's another story. So the damn thing won't even idle now. I got it to idle once as soon as I tapped the gas, it died. If smells as if it's running extremely rich, and a few times when it died, I would shut it off, pull the key out and the fan would start up. WHATTHEFUCK? So, I'm thinking maybe a coolent temp sensor? Fuck I don't know. It still should idle and run at least a little bit. Somebody give me some luv on this because if I can't get it running tomorrow, I have to pay to tow it. I still will be driving w/o insurance or plates, but I could then at least HOPEFULLY not get a ticket. I'm pretty pissed. There will be a follow-up in the Fuck thread. Hasta minana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burning Rom Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Did the fan start up right after you turned the car off? If so..it's the after-run for the fan. It runs when you shut the car off, and it's still hot. At least it does for me :? Check all the usual things... Spark Plugs Wires Coil Packs Vacuum Lines TPS Maybe try doing an idle re-learn procedure on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted July 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Yeah, the fan comes on right after the key is shut off. The car was stone cold so there is something wrong w/ something. I also noticed that when I was sitting still w/ the key on the check gauges light would flicker. No apparent pattern. And of COURSE it's currently 7:48 a.m. and I was just awoken to someone telling me I have to move it because they are getting ready to fix the pavement right in front of it. What a fucking day. How do I idle re-learn a manual? I saw the procedure for an auto, but not a manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Do you have a spare ECM to try in it? That's the first thing I'd try. A bad ECM will cause the strangest problems. Then check the ignition module. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted July 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Okay, he put a new module that he tested at work and it tested good OVER 50 TIMES. He said it ran worse afterwords. I'm wondering if he never took it back out. I have a spare ECM in the trunk. What does it take to switch the MEMCAL to the new computer. I just don't want to fuck it up and have it not work for sure. Is there any special procedure or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 It's easy, just remove 4 screws from the ECM cover. Then look inside and you'll see the MEMCAL, it has 2 clips on either side. Push those down and out and the MEMCAL will pop up. To install the MEMCAL, just push it straight down and then snap the clips in. Good luck! If it's not those 2 things, the only thing I can think of is a shorted injector overheating/overdriving the ECM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Do the basics man... Pull the plugs on the front bank and lay them up against the exhaust manifold (plugged into the plug wires) and make sure you have spark at all three plugs. If you don't have a pressure gauge for the fuel rail, get one and ensure you have fuel pressure at the fuel rail. You can also remove the rail cap and put a small screw in the schraider (sp?) valve and make sure you get a very large rush of fuel...becareful it doesn't spray in your face. Check the OHMs value at all 6 injectors to ensure they are not shorted. All injectors should be from 10-12 OHMs for it to run. Anything less and the injector is suspect and should be replaced. Any bad injector I have seen would be at 4-5 OHMs, they don't tend to hang around 10-12 OHMs they just drop off. No fuel, no spark.....no fun!! One thing you might try first...pull the fuse out of the fuel pump relay cover for 30 seconds. The relay in there is for the pump, the fuse is power to the ECM. Pulling the fuse will reset the ECM and see if it fires then. Worry about the idle relearn once it idles! The idle relearn for a 5-speed is the same as an auto. The only reason they tell you to put it in gear for the auto is that the engine will warm faster with the tranny in gear, thus cutting down the time it takes for it to relearn. Unless the EPROM (memcal) was laid out in the sun for 4 straight days with the tape removed from the EPROM access window, it is still good. It requires an intense amount of UV (Ultra-Violet) from a UV eraser for 1 hour, or UV from the sun for 3 or 4 days to erase the info from the EPROM. The values on the EPROM will not and cannot get corrupted once it is burned to the EPROM. That is the nice part about them. Do the basics first! 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manualturbo Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 i DID put that module in, and it did run worse. but like i told jay--when it was running really bad i found a spark plug boot had come off so i reattached it. then it started idling but it will not accept any pedal. now if that wire might have somehow shorted the module or something i dont know. jay if i were u, try replacing the ecm--then if that doesnt help any, move to the module. if that doesnt work then its almost a sure bet that its fuel related. start from the source, the pump--check for pressure(if its the pump that is bad, i will get a new one b/c that one is less than a month old its the AC Delco pump for the 90 Vette). then move to the FPR--ive checked that it holds vacuum and doesnt leak gas out of it. but the injectors i have no way to test so i do not know if when the fuel pump went out if a couple injectors got burned up from cranking with no gas. mitch check the blinker fluid and the canooter valves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Pheonix Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 that sounds exactly like my car when i first got it. The coolant sensor was bad, however my ecm was bad too, but the dying when you stepped on the gas remained after i got a new one. Mine wouldn't idle for more than a couple seconds and as soon as you step on the gas it would die. However, if you stepped and let off instantly several times you could get it to barely rev to 3000, and it you contiuned rev it after awhile it would only bog down when you stepped on the gas above 2000rpms. But the dying when you stepped on the gas was all the coolant sensor's fault. Hope that helps, i had to take mine to automotive electric to figure out the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Pheonix Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 BTY i had good spark, fuel pressure, fuel filter, and i checked my injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantomFE3 Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 on the waterneck going to the radiator, there should be a little clip that clips into the back of the waterneck, its a 2-pin clip, if he replaced the oil pump o-ricg he may have unclipped that and forgott to clip it back in, see if that is still connected, i know when i replaced the o-ring on my car and left it un-clipped the car would die CONSTANTLY and the funs would run everytime i turned the ignition on, you might want to try that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fatguy Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Jay, Is there still a cat on there? Has anyone ever checked it to make sure its good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted August 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Okay lets see. First of all, I know that it ran before Mitch changed the module, then it didn't. So I figured I would start there. I replace the module w/ the one in the trunk (the one that was on it when I drove it) The only thing I didn't do was swap the coils. I used the coils that are/were on it while it sat in the trunk. Here's the great part. It's 3:43 in the morning and I just got done w/ the module. I figured, "Fuck it, mitch marked the wires, and I have the Haynes manual right here." WRONG. My Cutlass is a 3.1 and after I put everything back together on the TGP I started it and it back fired. I thought, just a wire switched. So I looked at my Cutty so I could get the front three wired right. And not only was it different from the way I had it on the TGP but it was different from the haynes manual. So, my 92 Cutty that drives perfectly has different wiring than a TGP? I'm gonna try to find where what goes, online, but in case I can't could someone post this info as Haynes is wrong. GODDAMNIT, it's there job to do that right. And if by some wack ass way they are right, why in the hell is my Cutlass running so good? BTW Mitch said the cat is on there but they gutted it. It's a straight exhaust, and you can tell I'm gonna try the ECM and then go to the fuel. I also suspect a CTS but that wouldn't give the symptoms I'm getting. The fact that I am up until 4 should give me some lee-way w/ the people that run the apartment building. Good ideas guys, keep em coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 I'm nowhere near a car to check which coil is which, but I know as long as 1-4, 2-5, and 3-6 are on the same coil, they can be reversed and it won't matter since they fire in pairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 BTY i had good spark, fuel pressure, fuel filter, and i checked my injectors. Right on. Just seems to me that people don't go after the basics first before they start pumping money into sensors, ECMs, new turbos, etc. and they don't even know what the motor is lacking...fuel or spark. These motors can be a real pain in the ass, but shotgunning parts at it and not even knowing the root of the problem is just plain stupid... 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted August 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 ...but shotgunning parts at it and not even knowing the root of the problem is just plain stupid... 8) I agree but w/ a new vehicle (new being 14 years old) I usually don't mind accidentally changing too many parts. Albeit, I'm not going to change the RR tire to hope that fixes it. When I was looking around online I saw a few other places that showed the same as the Haynes, then I got to thinking, hey, I just have the 2 & 5 wire mixed up, and as Shawn said, THAT doesn't matter because it's the same coil. I'm going out now to try to figure out the wire and then hopefully it will start up and run. If not, I'm gonna switch the ECM then I'm going to my shop to pick up my fuel pressure gauge and my vacuum pump to get after that fuel system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Pheonix Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 I agree, and in my case every simple checked out, however the sensor didn't, good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manualturbo Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 whoa hold it jay-those numbers i put on those wires dont mean anything with that new module and coil packs. that was from a while ago when i had the old coil packs on there and i had everything numbered together--the car should be the same as any other 3.1--please please double check cylinder to coil match up as a wrong combo WILL make the car backfire. im not positive it is the same way as an N/A 3.1 but it really wouldnt make sense for GM to do it any other way. if this still doesnt work the ecm in the trunk is the same one that was in the car when we drove it here. ive never replaced the CTS either though so that may be something to check into...i dont know man but i know that car runs i swear it does and its as frustrating to me too b/c now everyone including u probly thinks i sold u a piece of junk, and i can assure u that it is not. i wouldnt have put so much time and effort into a car that didnt run. hell i even got a sponsorship for it but the company sponsoring me was so slow it didnt even matter. anyways i just hope u get it running soon b/c i want u to be happy with it--i was. good luck man mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted August 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Okay, so I switched to the ECM that was in the trunk, the Module that was in the trunk, and the coils that were on the module that was in the trunk. And a partridge in a pear tree. I figured the numbers on the wires didn't mean anything, so I wired it right on the front, and the back I just guessed. I will confirm them tomorrow, and I got my fuel press. gauge. So I will check the fuel pressure tomorrow. Of course, I can't check fuel pressure on a car that won't idle, but I can see what the pump does at the end of the rail. And during pump up. And since the fitting is at the end of the rail, I will be able to see pressure after the FPR, so if it's low, then I can test w/ the vacuum hose unhooked and it should go up right? The lower the vacuum the more fuel pressure. It's raining here so I can't work on it until 5 like last night. But I hoooked up the gauge and turned the key and fuel started spraying everywhere, so I need to tighten the fittings on the housing of the gauge. We'll see what's up and let you guys know tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fatguy Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 jay, I know this is gonna sound weird, but since you've checked and swapped and pulled out your hair.... My car had a running problem I tried everything then by accident I found that the fuses in the rs elec center were not making contact. Remove the splash shield on the right side of the engine compartment. Grab the wire harness going to the rs electrical center just above the ecm. As someone turns the engine over wiggle the harness, in particular the big red wires. If the engine running/turning over sounds change, then carefully remove each fuse terminal from the elec center then wirebrush, clean with contact cleaner and tighten then reinstall in the panel. I know it sounds wild, but try it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted August 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Fatguy, I'll look into that. I just called my handy dandy Advance Auto parts and had them check the module part number agains that of my 3.1 in the Cutty. BOOOYAH, the same. So tomorrow the mod. is coming out and going into the TGP to se if that fixes it. I checked the fuel press. tonight, KOEo I had 40 psi rail pressure and no fluctuating, so my FPR isn't faulty it holds pressure. THen while cranking it dropped to 33-34 psi and held it while cranking, This might not be optimum but it would sustain an idle so I believe the fuel system is fine. I got all the wires on right. I am changing the CTS for the fans/ECM tomorrow and swapping my module to see if that fixes it because I don't care if he tested it 1 billion times, it's acting like a module. So, mine is new (6 months) and my car runs great. Lets hope nothing happens to it during the swap (my luck) If I can't get it running by tomorrow I have to tow it, just so you know Mitch said I can take it off the price of the car. So don't think he's an asshole, he's helping my get this figured out. Any tips welcome. You guys (and gal) rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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