1990lumina Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 I suppose I can check the shop manual for my car at school tomorrow, I forgot we have a library of a TON of manuals..hopefully there might be some diagnosing stuff in there. It just won't hold a constant steady idle, and at around 1100rpm the engine shakes hard and then smooths out right to redline. If anyone has any more to add please do..I hope I can get int othe shop tomororw and check the manual there at school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Here ya' go Jeff... http://www.w-body.com/ecm-codes.html#35 I'll post some pictures/scans from a factory service manual tomorrow that go into detail about troubleshooting this code. If you could that'd be awesome. I'm not sure I can get int othe shop tomororw, we're supposed to be in the classroom all day tomrorw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 You know, too bad it's running bad because that sounds freakin sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 You know, too bad it's running bad because that sounds freakin sweet I've been asked a few times now what I have under the hood lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Factory service manual info/diagnosis for Code 35. http://home.alltel.net/mfewtrail/images/code35.jpg http://home.alltel.net/mfewtrail/images/code35_2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 Thanks man. I believe my idle is the "Rich mixture, idle speed low" one. So I guess I'll go borrow my buddies fuel pressure tester tonight and see what I find. The car smells like it's dumping fuel at idle (raw fuel smell in the exhaust followed by rotten egg smell from the converter-I assume it's being overloaded with unburned fuel). Not sure how to really check the injectors, I'll leave that as a last check... my O2 sensor is a Bosch (I know, POS), it was installed last fall..think it's gone bad already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 My idle is what the manual describes as "low, rough, and unstable" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 ahhh the memories...... Yeah I had that same problem once. I ignored it until one day my car wouldn't start. My fuel pressure regulator went out. So since I had the upper intake off, I went ahead and replaced all 6 injectors. Put it back together and I never had an idle jumping problem again. Also my TPS and crank shaft postion sensor were replaced a few months prior. I hope this helps. Oh and my car was alot faster and my mileage jumped up after the install. (as it should) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 So the question then is, you think FPR, or an injector or two? I remember Matt's (Eurosport94) FPR blew up on his 3.1 weeks before he sold it...Can I test it with a simple pressure guage, or do I need some type of flow meter too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill Posted October 10, 2007 Report Share Posted October 10, 2007 I don't really know. I had fuel pressure at the rail but no fuel was getting to the injectors. Therefore I replaced the FPR. I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction, I think I spent $250-$300 on parts that day. My RPM's jumped worse than yours did. But after I replaced the FPR and injectors it never happened again. I drove it another 15,000 miles or so before I sold it. The guy I sold it to has nothing but great reports on it, and practically kisses my feet for such a great car. It worked for me hopefully for you too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Regal Limited Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Ah don't worry about it, you just got one nice hot camshaft in that beast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 So the question then is, you think FPR, or an injector or two? I remember Matt's (Eurosport94) FPR blew up on his 3.1 weeks before he sold it...Can I test it with a simple pressure guage, or do I need some type of flow meter too? I think you can just test it with a simple gauge at the end of the rail. Ive got a 3100FPR ( not sure if they are the same ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 So the question then is, you think FPR, or an injector or two? I remember Matt's (Eurosport94) FPR blew up on his 3.1 weeks before he sold it...Can I test it with a simple pressure guage, or do I need some type of flow meter too? Jeff, get a length of vacuum line that will fit the FPR tightly and then get a vacuum pump and pull a vacuum on the FPR. It would help to have clear tubing, but it isn't necessary. If there is fuel in the vacuum line after pulling a vacuum on the FPR, the diaphram inside it is tore and leaking. Alternatively, you could suck on the vacuum tubing with your mouth if you have no pump available...let us know if you get a taste of gasoline. As for the injectors...hook up your fuel pressure gauge and see if the fuel pressure drops off quickly after priming the pump and letting the car sit. The general rule of thumb is that pressure should not drop off more than 5psi in a 10 minute time period. If it does, then you have a leak. Look for anywhere between 40-47psi when you turn the key and prime the pump, but do not start the car. If you don't have a fuel pressure gauge, you could pull your plugs out after letting the car sit an hour or two and they will smell strongly of fuel if the injector for the corresponding cylinder is leaking. Usually when they are leaky, the car will not want to start right away after sitting a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Ok I will go try this sucking on the FPR tonight...my car always starts fine after sitting (hell, fired right up after sitting for 4 months in storage)..and start and stop (running errands around town) it always starts right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Worked on it all afternoon, and will test the fuel pressure tonight when I borrow my buddies guage. The spark plug for cylinder 3 was cracked so I thought SUCCESS, but after replacing it, and fighting to get the PVC out and changed the car still runs the same. MY OLD PVC WAS FULL OF GASOLINE - normal? Actually the idle is pretty smooth, but still not perfect. I'm almost ready to call it quits and give up. I really don't care anymore..maybe something will fail 100% and then I'll know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Its not normal to have gas in the PCV valve Question... is the car hard to start when its warm... like it cranks and you have to put your foot on the gas to help it start?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Nope, starts like a charm everytime. If I floor the gas it won't start (no fuel then)...but ya..my Dad still thinks my cat is plugged and that is what is causing the problem..so I'm going to have it cut out in the next few days and a pipe clamped in temporarily to see if it helps at all. If so I'll just replace the cat and muffler, if not I'll replace everything anyways lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 MY OLD PVC WAS FULL OF GASOLINE - normal? Absolutely not.... You are obviously dumping way too much fuel in, the FPR is shot and dumping fuel through the vacuum leak into the intake, or you have a sticking injector (the most probible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted October 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 I did a pressure test today - with the ignition on the guage showed about 41psi...I left the guage connected and went in to eat supper, when I came back out 20mins later the guage was at 38psi...still blame the FPR? I guess if my PVC is full of gas something is obviously wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Should be minumum of 45psi from my understanding.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted May 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Gonna update this a bit: At school today I took the car in and: I've changed the plugs and wires, all brand new stuff. I pulled 20 in/hg vacuum on the FPR and it doesn't leak at all. My fuel pressure is a constant 43psi or so with the key on. While running it stays around 40psi. My instructors at school said that's good enough and shouldn't be causing my issues. I hooked up a Tech I today and looked at my fuel trim values. The Block Learn was at 96-100 at idle. If I increased the throttle I could get a maximum of 112 for the Block Learn. My instructor told me a good reading would be 120-135 range. So, he told me the computer is trying to pull fuel but there is obviously something wrong and it can't adjust to the conditions 100%. I also connected an igntion tester to my car because I thought my coils were on their way out. Instead I found out 2 of the 3 coils were running at 50kV at times to fire my plugs as the wires had extremely high resistance - so the wires are brand new as of this evening. The O2 sensor readings were good on the Tech I, and it showed the ECM reacting to the O2 values. The secondary windings of the coils were all 6.1 (forget the prefix unit) ohms. Regardless they were all the same so I'm ruling out bad coils and ICM. My car has stumped a few instructors, but one suggested that I clamp off all the external vacuum lines to the HVAC and brake booster to isolate the engine bay. I don't think the PCV hose was cracked or anything, and nothing happened when I coated the area in carb cleaner. All my other vacuum lines look fine. I am stumped too now, as I've replaced the IAC, seafoamed the engine the other day, and done a bunch of other things and it stills runs like shit when warm. On Monday I'm taking the car to school again and we're going to pump the intake full of smoke with the smoke machine and see if it has any leaks. I'm hoping something starts to piss out smoke. I have a fuel course (my next and last course) and I might take the injectors out and clean them. Maybe there are a few injectors that are sticking open or something - I don't know. Does anyone have any thoughts, as I'm just looking for thoughts on the issue to test on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89SupremeCutty Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 i watched that vid again cause i forgot how it idled. it sounds like it has a big cam in it and i know with older cars like muscle cars and performance cars with bigger or aftermarket performance cams, the idle on them tends to lope like yours does. so now im thinking there's either a vacuum leak somplace, or your valvetrain has gone bad. possible worn out cam or bad/sticky lifters. if you don't find a vacuum leak anyplace when you take it in monday, i'll bet anything that there's something wrong with the valvetrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted May 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Yeah it's been suggested to me if nothing else is wrong I might have a worn cam lobe or something else wrong as you stated. I hope not, but I guess we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted May 4, 2008 Report Share Posted May 4, 2008 Besides the idling, does it run fine? Does it seem to have the same amount of power that it used to? By the way, I would put a fuel pressure gauge on it and see how quickly the pressure bleeds down after shutting the engine off(if you haven't already tried that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted May 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2008 Besides the idle is runs great. In fact, when it is idling really bad, and I hit the throttle hard it'll still spin the tires off the line. It seems to run fine on the highway and around town as long as I'm not idling it for long. The pressure doesn't come down much at all with the engine off, maybe 1 psi after it sat over my lunch hour. And it always starts good too (well, as good as it always has) So, if just idle is effected, I'm leaning towards a vacuum leak. Where is the question though! I hope when I put smoke into the intake Monday it'll leak out of the plenum or something. All the vacuum lines I can see look fine and are is great shape so whatever lines that are under the plenum I'm assuming are okay too, but of course I'm not 100% sure. I can't really see the PCV hose very well - do I have to remove the upper plenum to see the hose - I can't even see where it plugs into the intake. The brake assist hasn't been great either - so I thought maybe the vacuum booster is leaking internally. I used a pair of vice grips and pinched the hose off to the booster and went for a drive - no change. So, maybe whatever is leaking is leaking bad enough to effect the vacuum booster? It's just weird because if the leak was that bad you'd think I could hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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