Vegeta Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Someone prove to me that internally balanced means no torsional vibration. Add the easter bunny to the list cause its not happening. Yes, there are no cases of bad things happening, but no, you can't say its 100% safe either. If there is internal combustion, there is torsional vibration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biff85ta Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Even when the 60 degree V6 was externally balanced it was the flywheel not the balancer that was different. It is called a HARMONIC balancer for a reason. If the stock pulley has a rubber ring in it and the ud pulley does not I wouldn't put it on my car. It is there to absord the harmonic frequencies from the crank not to balance it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 This company close by, called "border engine" can get me an ud pulley for about 160 bucks, i showed them the ffw udp and they said they could make a smaller one. Is this safe? or is it too much. should i just get the ffw udp? You should not go any smaller. Any smaller and you'll run into charging issues with the alternator, cooling issues, and your car could be hard to turn at slow speeds. Just go with the FFP pulley, and don't worry about it 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 guys guys guys... are we forgetting about the big natural vibration dampener on the back side of the motor (for the auto trans guys) - you know, the big fluid filled thing called the torque converter? how many people here actually realized how much vibration that thing itself absorbs - I've seen engines that will try to shake an engine dyno to it's orignial molecules actually run fairly smooth when hooked to an auto trans because of the ammount of fluid in the torque converters - this at the same time will absorb the natural "frequencies" that biff85ta here is talking about. remember ... auto trans = built in harmonic dampener; manual trans = more need for external dampener Also, you've gotta think how many engines out there do not have these dampeners (302's, 327's, 350's, the older 3.8's shal I keep going?) they were put on there because of the imperfections in mass production and the fact that sometimes bearings were not always as perfect as they wanted, and this little band-aid would help prevent you from finding these problems too quickly - but if you've got 50k on an engine and have seen no signs of these problems, then you can be quite sure you won't have future issues if you do run this item. Granted there's always going to be risks associated with adding ANYTHING to your engine - hell, ever rip the threads outta a head when changing a spark plug? Seriously, if you're going to be so overly paranoid about adding an underdrive pully to your car, then perhaps you shouldn't run ANY mods on your engine. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebojsa_o Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Ahh, great, why did you bring up this topic, I was thinking about the UD pulley, and now I hear this? Luckily I'm gonna side with most people on here, and until I hear of a 60* problem due to the UD Pulley I'm pretty sure I'll get one. But a quick question is, why couldn't FFP or you yourself get a rubber ring to put there?? Would that make another problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biff85ta Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 I now I myself would not try it on my daily. I have seen the mess a broken crank makes of a motor motre than once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 I now I myself would not try it on my daily. I have seen the mess a broken crank makes of a motor motre than once. Not on a 60 degree V6 you havn't. It goes back to what I just fucking said. I've seen disasters with turbos, that doesn't mean every daily driver TGP is going to pull off his turbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitcor Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 on the 60v6 engines you guys who are worrying are worrying about nothing. The stock pulley does nothing at all as far as balancing or vibration absorbtion. If it did there would be some kind of off set weight either in the form of a rubber ring (as some have mentioned) or extra metal on one of the arms of the pulley spoke. As has been said there are litterlly 100's of cars running the FFP UD pulley and others. I for one put an FFP UD pulley on my 3400 when i did the swap. I have over 60,000 miles with the pulley on. Everything from daily driving to dragging to long highway drives. I have never had any addational vibration nor any bottom end problems at all. If you want to see even more cars running UD pullies on 60v6 engines go hit up GrandAMGT.com and youll see tons more. Its pretty much the standard first mod todo on a 60v6 engine being that it is incredibly simple todo, very reliable and the $/HP ratio is about as good as its gonna get as far as mods go. If there is any tortional vibration in the engine now, putting a UD pulley on isint going to make it any better or worse. Also FFP's pulley is as small as you can go without overstressing your other accessories (as others have said). The owner of FFP (Mike) spent a year developing the pulley and testing various sizes before coming out with the final product. Since then it has gone through a couple revisions to improve it. It is not only smaller than stock but lighter than stock as well yet perfectly balenced due to being CNC milled out of a block of aircraft grade alunimum. So when adding this pulley your not only underdriving the crank but you are reducing your overall rotational mass. This is a good thing. As for the anit-sieze on the inner bore, its mainly to prevent oil leaking ot of the seal, if you do not do this step it is sligtly harder to install and it may (or may not) leak a small amount of oil from the pulley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Then you won't do shit to your TGP. If you are worried about the torsional vibration of a neutrally balanced engine I think adding a 100 hp nitrous shot would be an easier, safer way to get some more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 All I can do is laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futuretgper Posted August 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 on the 60v6 engines you guys who are worrying are worrying about nothing. The stock pulley does nothing at all as far as balancing or vibration absorbtion. If it did there would be some kind of off set weight either in the form of a rubber ring(as some have mentioned) or extra metal on one of the arms of the pulley spoke. the stock damper does have a rubber ring!! so you are loosing some ability to nueturalize vibration..... dude aaron lighten up.....ur freakin out about nothing.....people want to discuss the topic and come to sound decisions!! we are all big people here and we can make our own conclusions!! haha stop "yelling" at people....i don't think the topic is exactly open and shut....but in my opinion its probably not going to harm my engine (or others) until i a) make alot more power or bump redline up a few thousand rpms.... and people are blowing out bottom ends (not necessarily on 60v6's) all the time and sometimes they don't even think to question there ud pulley as the culprit so u never hear many stories about them cuasing trouble!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 everyone just miss my post or something... torque converter = large spinning fluid filled vibration absorber. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 People need to chill otherwise this is going to be locked very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonyman87 Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 My opinion on the UD pully. i recomend it. dosnt hurt. only helps. thousands of miles. yeah try 40k miles! + i have 191k now. Not one problem with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 How much does it slow down the alt. and water pump? And how do they know how much is acceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biff85ta Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 I now I myself would not try it on my daily. I have seen the mess a broken crank makes of a motor motre than once. Not on a 60 degree V6 you havn't. It goes back to what I just fucking said. I've seen disasters with turbos, that doesn't mean every daily driver TGP is going to pull off his turbo Yeah it was. It was the 2.8 in my 86 Fiero SE. There was no underdrive on it though. You know shit can happen to any car. I am not familiar with the lower pulley on a W. If it has a rubber ring in it there is NO way I would replace it with one that did not have it. If not I say go for the underdrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitcor Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 How much does it slow down the alt. and water pump? And how do they know how much is acceptable? when the FFP was desgined they went through 3 or 4 different sizes to zero in on the balenae between power and not dimming the electrics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 I've had mine on for over a year with no problems. I say get it, there really isn't that much you can do to the TGP. Just get some shorter bolts to use for the install, than what comes with the standard autozone pulley puller. I personally have been reading these forums for more than 3 years and have never seen anything about the FFP pulley causing problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam'ron Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 ok somewhat of a noob here but what exactly does a UDP do raise or lower engine speed or does it even do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvin Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 FWIW, The Iron Duke 2.5 found in Chev W body cars does not have a damper at all and neither do several other low end GM engines. If it were me I wouldn't waste the time on a underdrive pulley you really need all the alternator speed you can get with stereo system or idling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebojsa_o Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Well if hundereds of people have the UD Pulley, then my guess is they don't have a problem running the stereo and idling. Besides FFP shows a comparison if I remember correctly on how much less power is being made, and that difference seems to be pretty small. So if it will give you more power, won't screw up your engine (hasn't happened yet), and still make enough power for the accesories, then I don't see how it's a waste of time or money. The aftermarket for the 3100 is already small enough, this is one of the simplest mods that's actually worth doing from what I found out, so I plan on doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 I am more worried about the water pump not working as hard. My CS-130-D alternator has no problem keeping up with my needs. And if I ever did get nitrous I would need the water pump to work harder than stock. Let alone the heat the turbo makes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitcor Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 the pulley does not slow down the accessories that much. In the 60k miles I have had mine I have had a system with over 800watts of power (got tired ot the subs, they are gone now). Sat in NJ traffic on the GSP in the dead heat of the summer with the AC cranking. Taken full sharp U-Turns at engine idle and even had the AC on during all of this. There is no noticable difference in cooling (I have an aftermarket temp gauge so I can read to the degree) of the engine, capaibility of the AC or Power steering. As for the alt, I would get small bit of dimming on the dash when I had the system hitting at full power. Though with 800 watts and no cap. That was to be expected. Why is it that people tend to belivel what someone who never even has had one "says" or "thinks" as compared to people who are actually running this product and have been doing so. 60,000 miles folks, 2 years, not a single problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ77 Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 I've had mine for 10k miles and NO problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 I am not belittling it in any way. I want one I think, but I would have to ask for an UD pulley for my waterpump to speed it up and make sure the turbo gets plenty of flow. I know you say everything will be ok, but more water flow would be better right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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