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Modding the Supercharged 3800 for Dummies

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#21 Imp558

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:41 PM

Bolts also can come from the hardware store especially if you replace them frequently like I do. The big thing is making sure they are a good hardness. when it comes time for the PCM ask here on the Forum first and if somebody can't reprogram yours we will at least be able to tell you what vehicle to remove one from.

Edited by Imp558, 21 April 2017 - 01:42 PM.

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#22 Grandprix1

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:47 PM

You can do it for less than $500 and STILL have hundreds of dollars leftover. ZZP is full of shit, just get the heads, LIM, SC, harmonic balancer, fuel rail, and pulleys/brackets from an L67 car. You don't need any special headgasket. You're going to have the higher compression even with the L67 heads, the difference is in the pistons. It takes 5 minutes to pull a harmonic balancer, including pulling the wheel off. Like Tom says, you'll need a puller anyway when your crank position sensor inevitably shits the bed. Buy the harmonic balancer puller and the GM bolt kit (OEM Tools part # 27296)

Hmm interesting. I may have to look at it and seriously consider it... so I'd still be 9.3:1 compression? I thought the compression was based on the head gasket which you could get thinner or thicker depending on how much compression you want. How low of a pulley could I run? Guess I should probably make a thread about looking into this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#23 Grandprix1

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 04:04 PM

I think I'm gonna leave it. I'm making about the same whp that a stock GTP is making crank. I also don't like the idea of it being a fake GTP. I'll get a GTP eventually but I think the top swap isn't something I should do Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#24 digitaloutsider

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 04:42 PM

Hmm interesting. I may have to look at it and seriously consider it... so I'd still be 9.3:1 compression? I thought the compression was based on the head gasket which you could get thinner or thicker depending on how much compression you want. How low of a pulley could I run? Guess I should probably make a thread about looking into this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yes, you can, at a very minor level, affect the compression ratio by using very thin or very thick headgaskets.  It's not enough to make any difference on a daily driver.  When I dropped an L36 shortblock into my '98 GS years ago, I used FelPro PermaTorque Severe Duty headgaskets, which are slightly thicker than standard ones.  The pistons are where the magic happens, look at L36 and L67 ones side by side.  

 

I'm fairly sure it's 9.4:1, but it's been a while since I've thought about it. 

 

 

I think I'm gonna leave it. I'm making about the same whp that a stock GTP is making crank. I also don't like the idea of it being a fake GTP. I'll get a GTP eventually but I think the top swap isn't something I should do Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Who cares about it being a "fake" GTP?  You're not trying to reproduce a passable Yenko Camaro here.  And yeah, with enough mods you're making stock GTP power, but I'm willing to guarantee eventually you'll get tired of it and you'd be spending the money all over again for a top swap.  I know it's your car and yadda yadda, but in my opinion modding an L36 only made sense when the L67 stuff was still expensive 15 years ago.  I see people parting out GTPs and GSs on craigslist all day long and would probably take $250 for an entire longblock.


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2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90º V6 | 4T65E-HD

Gen V M90, 3.2" MPS, F&R Powerlogs, 60lb injectors, E85, 3" DP, 3" stainless exhaust, Intake, 104s, 180° t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body brakes, Tuned.

 

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited 5.9L 360ci Magnum Pushrod 90º V8 | 46RE | NV249

Flowmaster 50 SUV muffler, 180° t-stat, CAI, 8.5mm wires, does sick burnouts.


#25 Grandprix1

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 04:48 PM

Yes, you can, at a very minor level, affect the compression ratio by using very thin or very thick headgaskets. It's not enough to make any difference on a daily driver. When I dropped an L36 shortblock into my '98 GS years ago, I used FelPro PermaTorque Severe Duty headgaskets, which are slightly thicker than standard ones. The pistons are where the magic happens, look at L36 and L67 ones side by side. I'm fairly sure it's 9.4:1, but it's been a while since I've thought about it. Who cares about it being a "fake" GTP? You're not trying to reproduce a passable Yenko Camaro here. And yeah, with enough mods you're making stock GTP power, but I'm willing to guarantee eventually you'll get tired of it and you'd be spending the money all over again for a top swap. I know it's your car and yadda yadda, but in my opinion modding an L36 only made sense when the L67 stuff was still expensive 15 years ago. I see people parting out GTPs and GSs on craigslist all day long and would probably take $250 for an entire longblock.

Yeah that's true. And your probably right haha. I'm going into college and it's plenty quick enough to run around town and to and from school. Who knows maybe in the next year I'll either have a GTP or have a thread asking for parts and how to do it haha. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#26 Imp558

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:17 PM

my car wasn't available supercharged nor is there a hell of a lot left of what GM intended for it to be. there is a certain Pride that comes with a car that didn't exist
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1996 Regal L67/4T65E-HD swapped

1980 Dodge Sno-Commander

1984 Dodge Prospector

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#27 Nas Escobar

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:16 PM

Hmm interesting. I may have to look at it and seriously consider it... so I'd still be 9.3:1 compression? I thought the compression was based on the head gasket which you could get thinner or thicker depending on how much compression you want. How low of a pulley could I run? Guess I should probably make a thread about looking into this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The main difference between the L36 and L67 blocks are the pistons. Everything else is the same, except compression on the L67 is 8.5 compared to 9.4 on your L36. That's why a top swap makes more sense. You could probably get the whole setup at Crazy Ray's for $150. Most people surprisingly leave the L67's alone, and they're in abundance at the yards. If not a W, they can come off an H body. I'd just double check that the p/n's for the injectors are the same, but they should be. I think L67SS is running an H body motor. His Monte is pretty frankensteined

 

As far as smaller pulleys, most people go down to a 3.4 pulley. 

 

I think I'm gonna leave it. I'm making about the same whp that a stock GTP is making crank. I also don't like the idea of it being a fake GTP. I'll get a GTP eventually but I think the top swap isn't something I should do Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It's not a fake GTP and at the end of the day, the trim is just a marker for the engine. There was nothing special about them. It's not like taking a V6 Camaro and turning it into an SS with the SS specific spoiler and other random tidbits. 

 

my car wasn't available supercharged nor is there a hell of a lot left of what GM intended for it to be. there is a certain Pride that comes with a car that didn't exist

 

THIS FTW. 

 

I did something similar with my old 2002 Camaro. My 3800 had a hole in the block and I swapped it for the L26 engine out of a 2008 Lacrosse. Long story short, you think a stock engine with some mods is satisfying but when you upgrade to something better, and actually use it, it makes you smile. I know the L26 and L36 aren't very different but I do feel the bigger exhaust valves made a difference... along with the full exhaust setup I had on it. I had upgraded from 2.25 to 2.50 and deleted the EGR. 


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#28 Grandprix1

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:18 PM

The main difference between the L36 and L67 blocks are the pistons. Everything else is the same, except compression on the L67 is 8.5 compared to 9.4 on your L36. That's why a top swap makes more sense. You could probably get the whole setup at Crazy Ray's for $150. Most people surprisingly leave the L67's alone, and they're in abundance at the yards. If not a W, they can come off an H body. I'd just double check that the p/n's for the injectors are the same, but they should be. I think L67SS is running an H body motor. His Monte is pretty frankensteined As far as smaller pulleys, most people go down to a 3.4 pulley. It's not a fake GTP and at the end of the day, the trim is just a marker for the engine. There was nothing special about them. It's not like taking a V6 Camaro and turning it into an SS with the SS specific spoiler and other random tidbits. THIS FTW. I did something similar with my old 2002 Camaro. My 3800 had a hole in the block and I swapped it for the L26 engine out of a 2008 Lacrosse. Long story short, you think a stock engine with some mods is satisfying but when you upgrade to something better, and actually use it, it makes you smile. I know the L26 and L36 aren't very different but I do feel the bigger exhaust valves made a difference... along with the full exhaust setup I had on it. I had upgraded from 2.25 to 2.50 and deleted the EGR.

Heads alone are $100 and I would have no way to take a motor and even do anything with it by myself. I could probably get everything off of it but I could take a whole motor. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#29 digitaloutsider

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:13 PM

The main difference between the L36 and L67 blocks are the pistons. Everything else is the same, except compression on the L67 is 8.5 compared to 9.4 on your L36. That's why a top swap makes more sense. You could probably get the whole setup at Crazy Ray's for $150. Most people surprisingly leave the L67's alone, and they're in abundance at the yards. If not a W, they can come off an H body. I'd just double check that the p/n's for the injectors are the same, but they should be. I think L67SS is running an H body motor. His Monte is pretty frankensteined

 

As far as smaller pulleys, most people go down to a 3.4 pulley. 

 

The engine block itself is the same for an H-body, but the oil pan, oil filter adapter, mounting system, pullies, brackets, etc are all W-body specific.  Injectors and fuel rail are the same.  I would not pulley down to a 3.4" on a topswap without headers at the very least, and even then I wouldn't move that far down until I was at maybe a 3.6" and scanning wielded no KR.

 

 

Heads alone are $100 and I would have no way to take a motor and even do anything with it by myself. I could probably get everything off of it but I could take a whole motor.

 

I would never pay $100 for junkyard heads that I'd have to take somewhere else to be gone over anyway.  Your best bet is finding an individual parting out a car a wrecked so you can see it run for yourself, then take the parts you need.  Honestly, troll the 3800 Marketplace group on Facebook, I'm sure plenty of people are sitting on a complete top swap.

The advantage of pulling it yourself is that you KNOW for a fact everything is there.  I know myself, and probably other folks on the group, might be willing to take some time to visit a yard with you and help collect the parts you need.  Hell I've got an L67 LIM and perfect condition M90, so that gets you almost halfway there.


Shaun

 

2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90º V6 | 4T65E-HD

Gen V M90, 3.2" MPS, F&R Powerlogs, 60lb injectors, E85, 3" DP, 3" stainless exhaust, Intake, 104s, 180° t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body brakes, Tuned.

 

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited 5.9L 360ci Magnum Pushrod 90º V8 | 46RE | NV249

Flowmaster 50 SUV muffler, 180° t-stat, CAI, 8.5mm wires, does sick burnouts.


#30 Grandprix1

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:15 PM

The engine block itself is the same for an H-body, but the oil pan, oil filter adapter, mounting system, pullies, brackets, etc are all W-body specific. Injectors and fuel rail are the same. I would not pulley down to a 3.4" on a topswap without headers at the very least, and even then I wouldn't move that far down until I was at maybe a 3.6" and scanning wielded no KR. I would never pay $100 for junkyard heads that I'd have to take somewhere else to be gone over anyway. Your best bet is finding an individual parting out a car a wrecked so you can see it run for yourself, then take the parts you need. Honestly, troll the 3800 Marketplace group on Facebook, I'm sure plenty of people are sitting on a complete top swap. The advantage of pulling it yourself is that you KNOW for a fact everything is there. I know myself, and probably other folks on the group, might be willing to take some time to visit a yard with you and help collect the parts you need. Hell I've got an L67 LIM and perfect condition M90, so that gets you almost halfway there.

That's a good idea. I'll keep my mind on it and keep looking at parts and see what people are doing. I'd love to run boost but I can't afford the cost haha Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#31 l67ss

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:20 PM

One thing to remember when looking at the horsepower ratings is where its making it. Just because two motors make the same peak HP doesn't mean they'll run the same. Once you add boost it becomes a whole new animal. And x2 on trolling the fb 3800 pages for parts. I've seen complete topswaps as cheap as $80. Something I also noticed was I picked up mpg....especially around town
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Any idiot can build a fast v8, it takes a REAL idiot to build a fast v6 :)

#32 Grandprix1

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:42 AM

One thing to remember when looking at the horsepower ratings is where its making it. Just because two motors make the same peak HP doesn't mean they'll run the same. Once you add boost it becomes a whole new animal. And x2 on trolling the fb 3800 pages for parts. I've seen complete topswaps as cheap as $80. Something I also noticed was I picked up mpg....especially around town

The top swaps that are that cheap are they on the car or off the car and I just need to pick up a box? If I could do this for 80-150 bucks then sign me up. If it's a full motor I won't be able to do that cause I got no where to even put a motor much less store another another. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#33 Imp558

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:37 PM

It's more than that, head gaskets alone are pretty pricey. Set a realistic goal date and gather parts. Watch for deals and update your cars build thread so everyone knows what you still need. A top swap doesn't have to be crazy expensive but as with any project things add up, like $25 for supercharger oil for instance. There's no reason why you can't have the engine parts for about $100 but you really should have the heads redone and that's $200 at the place I use.

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#34 Grandprix1

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:05 PM

It's more than that, head gaskets alone are pretty pricey. Set a realistic goal date and gather parts. Watch for deals and update your cars build thread so everyone knows what you still need. A top swap doesn't have to be crazy expensive but as with any project things add up, like $25 for supercharger oil for instance. There's no reason why you can't have the engine parts for about $100 but you really should have the heads redone and that's $200 at the place I use.

That's a good idea. It would be very expensive regardless because if u want to be able to run decent pulleys you'd need to change pistons since the compression is higher on the NA cars. At that point your better off just buying a GTP. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#35 digitaloutsider

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:08 PM

What on earth are you on about?  You don't have to change anything, just don't go balls to the wall with dropping pulley sizes. My old '98 is STILL running around, nearly 100k miles later on a used L36 block with a 3.4" pulley and the necessary supporting mods and no KR.

 

It really is as simple as dropping L67 heads on to an L36 block. There is no magic or mystery here.


Shaun

 

2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90º V6 | 4T65E-HD

Gen V M90, 3.2" MPS, F&R Powerlogs, 60lb injectors, E85, 3" DP, 3" stainless exhaust, Intake, 104s, 180° t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body brakes, Tuned.

 

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited 5.9L 360ci Magnum Pushrod 90º V8 | 46RE | NV249

Flowmaster 50 SUV muffler, 180° t-stat, CAI, 8.5mm wires, does sick burnouts.


#36 l67ss

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:20 PM

Yeah no need to change pistons. Just have to do more supporting mods with each pulley drop. The higher compression alone will make a topswap more powerful than an l67
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Any idiot can build a fast v8, it takes a REAL idiot to build a fast v6 :)

#37 Grandprix1

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:36 PM

Ok well I joined the 3800 sale site on Facebook so if I see any top swaps there for a nice price I may jump on them. 


2002 Grand Prix GT

Mods: K&N Aircharger, Performance Shift, ZZP Downpipe (Catted), ZZP Tune, Front and Rear STB, ZZP Throttle Body Spacer and Heat Shield.

Carlisle GM Nationals 1st Place Grand Prix Stock June 17th-19th 2016


#38 Imp558

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:55 PM

I'm planning an L36 bottom end for my "final" engine
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"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough"  - Mario Andretti

 

1996 Regal L67/4T65E-HD swapped

1980 Dodge Sno-Commander

1984 Dodge Prospector

1968 Empi Imp on '67 Pan






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