Feeler- Solid Front and Rear Mounts

[Addicted To Boost]

Good post, Olds W31^^

[dohc v6]

Oh and by the way the 4-5 degrees at the top of the strut would then in turn, turn into about 10-15 at the bottom of the strut where it connects. There is no way it can turn that much. With the 1-2* that it might move and I doubt its even the much there is play in the whole suspension system, so I dont really see it as a problem. I guess the only real thing to do is try it out. I do see what u are saying, but I think that alot of people on the forum come up with ideas that really are sketchy.

 

If you remember I was told that my brakes would not work, that the material would sheer. I have about 3k miles on these and no sheering, just to keep that in mind.

[Olds W31]

Well I guess I will just ahve to put it on my car and find out.

Two words...DYE PENETRANT. (how to test/check for stress cracks)

 

Oh and by the way the 4-5 degrees at the top of the strut would then in turn, turn into about 10-15 at the bottom of the strut where it connects. There is no way it can turn that much. With the 1-2* that it might move and I doubt its even the much there is play in the whole suspension system,

 

so I dont really see it as a problem.

 

That should eliminate it, then. If you don't see it, it must not exist...

 

I guess the only real thing to do is try it out. I do see what u are saying, but I think that alot of people on the forum come up with ideas that really are sketchy.

 

If you remember I was told that my brakes would not work, that the material would sheer. I have about 3k miles on these and no sheering, just to keep that in mind.

 

I remember. That was not the focus. No one was questioning how those were designed, tested, etc in this thread. Anyone who uses this forum knows what efforts you have put into innovating products for the W's.

 

Good luck with your endeavors.

[mra32]

Simple design for a a solid rear strut mount (you can even make it out of aluminum)...and I wont be charging for "engineering time" on this:

 

Plate just like the one you made, with a bracket welded onto it in the middle, i'm thinking mitered thick wall square tubing (maybe you want to weld it off center to ajdust for camber/caster, ooohh ahhh) and drilled to accept a bolt through the bracket. The bolt would hold a female shank rod end and would be in double shear (2 identical sides of the bracket for the bolt to go through) Just thread the rod end onto the end of the strut with a jam nut and bolt that shit up. Done deal and would require no lathing, just some cuts and drillage. You would have to make sure the strut's height is the same as stock...you might be able to deviate a little bit, not sure. If people want, I'll try to make a drawing next week.

 

Olds W31, Thank you. I guess you are better with words or something, or maybe dohcv6 has beef with me but you made what i was saying perfectly clear. I guess some people on the board see my words through poop-colored lenses.

 

You seem smart(er than alot of people 95% of the people on the board)

 

 

Oh and by the way the 4-5 degrees at the top of the strut would then in turn, turn into about 10-15 at the bottom of the strut where it connects.

 

Please Explain.

 

1-2 degrees is also alot. Like i said if you give me the measurements i can model the rear suspension. Everyone can benefit.

 

and FTR, I never predicted failure of your brakes or whether they would work I'm not sure anyone did. I just decided to chime in because I saw no validation behind making them...and I'm still pretty sure that you arent sure what advantages big brakes have and what they DONT have. But people have noted situations where they would alleviate problems ( I still dont see whats wrong with brake ducts ). but this isnt about brakes, and i dont know why youre still so sore about that. And I dont have anything against you personally, just to clear it up

 

 

PLEASE DO TEST THESE.

[dohc v6]

Wow, gotta love this board. From the brake project that I did, you came on me stong saying that the brakes would have a tendency to sheer, becasue the metal behind that part that was being welded is to thin, is that not correct? To me that sounds like your saying they wont work, or they will fail, without saying they will fail straight up. IF you wanted to say they would fail, why did you not say it straight up, or what was your comment for all along then?

 

With these soild mounts, I would like for you to jack your car up, measure the angle at which the shock is at, then lower the car and tell me how much it moved. I just did that on my car and was not even able to get a degree at all. I sort of see what your saying with parts that move with the suspension, but if that was true, then all the mounts that I have made so far would have failed. The mounts that I have made are all similar in design.

 

I have no beef with anyone really. I get a little annoyed when I have people question my design, when they have no facts to back it up. The mounts will work, they wont fail, what else do you want?

 

 

[dohc v6]

Oh and just to clarify, the shock will have a poly bushing on the bottom and top of the mount.

[xtremerevolution]

 

 

I have no beef with anyone really. I get a little annoyed when I have people question my design, when they have no facts to back it up. The mounts will work, they wont fail, what else do you want?

 

 

 

I think the problem is that you don't have enough (or provide enough) facts to back up your design and people like to be 100% sure of something like this if there's even the slightest bit of doubt. A strut mount isn't something one can afford to have fail. As confident as you may be of the durability of your parts, one can't rely on confidence and experience alone when it comes to a car's suspension and brakes; especially not when your life rides on those parts.

 

Nobody is bashing your designs here, but you don't seem to respond very well to criticism and often fail to overlook the tone (be it condescending or doubtful) in mra32's posts, and as a result, consider very little of his logic in your designs. The moment someone doubts you regardless of merit, you seem to put up a defensive brick wall through which other peoples' innovations, ideas, and logic cannot penetrate. Honestly, you seem to have a condescending tone of your own as you seem to be much too confident of your own engineering abilities and from what I've seen rarely consider the advice of others here. From what I've read of your posts, you give off a pretty blatant "this is my design, I've got this under control, and I don't need anyone else's help" attitude.

 

I think you'd have a lot to benefit from if you considered the advice you're given. If anything, providing the right numbers and simulation for a design like this would serve to at least validate your credibility regardless of whether you're right or wrong. If you're right, you now have the numbers and simulation to back it up. If you're wrong, you fix it and you then have a better design and the numbers and simulation to back it up. Its that simple.

 

I think the points presented here in criticism of your engineering should be considered past the tone with which they're presented. As far as I can tell, we're not trying to undermine your project; we're trying to make it better, and unless you have a PHD in mechanical engineering, I'd say it would definitely help your cause if you listened. Your "well I'm using them and they haven't broken yet" or "I've built these before and people haven't had problems" reasoning is not only unprofessional, but it definitely isn't going to be enough for someone who wants to be 100% sure that their "track w-body" (I know, right?) isn't going to send them flying into a brick wall when that aluminum strut mount is stressed to all hell.

 

And honestly, not saying you will, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't bring up the fact that I'm only 23 and that I'm too insignificant to be telling you this and that I should just stay out of it.

[dohc v6]

Point taken.

[xtremerevolution]

Point taken.

 

Thanks, I appreciate that (no sarcasm there).

[mra32]

Not to bugger up this thread anymore, but YES! Andrei you get it. You really helped us all out. You hit the nail on the head, with everything.

 

And yes, dohc v6, I have offered numerous times in PM and in public on this forum to help you. I dont know why you havent taken it.

 

Hey, was the whole reason of making these to mount the koni's to your car? Or was it more of a suspension mod thing?

I'm torn whether a stiffer or less stiff mount would benefit the handling on the car. With the mount idea that I posted up, there would be almost no load on the mount. But that could be bad since the stock mount loads the rest of the suspension a little bit, thus making the compliance in the rest of the suspension be taken up a bit with the load. A suspension is best constructed if the damper does as much damping as possible. I think the rear suspension is a lost cause in that department, haha.

 

A stiffer one, as I said before could make the suspension feel tighter, but it will increase the possibility of binding in the other suspension components and making the suspension slower to react to the dynamic surface. And yes durability IS an issue. Cycling is harder on aluminum than it is on steel...or rubber for that matter. Even those rubber ones wear out. Think about it.

 

I say make both and see if there is a difference!

[Olds W31]

I feel like we have had a break-through!

 

Seriously, one of the extraordinary benefits, as well as one of the biggest pains, of a forum like this is the ability to share ideas. I, for one, appreciate the fact that DOHC V6 has actually built some of the stuff he discusses. It is also obvious that MRA 32 has had a few "trips around the block" (in car parlance that means you have broke stuff and had to figure out how to fix it...or walk home). I didin't know xtremerevolution was 23...he reasons like he has more maturity than some of the 20-somethings I have met. Anyway, we all have experiences where we have learned, and sometimes failed. Having broken more than my share of parts, and cars, I only want someone else to benefit from my painful experience.

 

I think, if you have the poly mount, there will be the small amount of flex that, in my opinion, is important to this project. Had I not just replaced my rear mounts, I would be excited by the prospect of what you are working on. Right now, I have to focus on being able to drive the Cutlass again....cheezy GM transmissions!

 

Build a set and burn a few square corners. It would be VERY cool if you had a G meter or I-phone or something with an accelerometer to do before and after comparisons...I think if the rear were stiffer it would tend to try and "break" (slide) under hard cornering, which I could actually use. I have the softer leaf spring and NEED more rear stiffness (no "cracks" or jokes here)....

[CSI_MuNkY]

I don't get why all the complaining... At $50 they are only $10 more than the stock mounts, I'm willing to bet the lifetime of his solid ones would be pretty damn close to the lifetime of the cheap ass rubber in the stock mounts. No mount is going to last the lifetime of your car.

 

No, I'm not going to be buying these, why? I basically have solid mounts on my car, have for well over a year now, NO problems. The Held mounts have a very small puck of poly between the strut and the mount. It has JUST enough flex to allow for the strut to move with the suspension, but I have the nut on top done up so tight there is no moving the strut laterally by hand.

 

And seeing as everyone keeps bringing up the break thread, I want to apologize to DOHCv6 and admit I was wrong. I have recently found out that companies like Willwood and Bear are using designs very similar to his on old muscle cars welding brackets to axle tubes that are not much thicker than our strut housing, and I can't say that I have ever heard of one of them failing.

 

Jamie

[Dark Ride]

On the helds in front doesn't it use the stock rubber bushing. I know that helds in back are pretty much solid.

[CSI_MuNkY]

Yes, in the held kits the front is just the stock rubber bushing at the top of the strut.

 

Jamie

[GutlessSupreme]

Wow, gotta love this board. From the brake project that I did, you came on me stong saying that the brakes would have a tendency to sheer, becasue the metal behind that part that was being welded is to thin, is that not correct? To me that sounds like your saying they wont work, or they will fail, without saying they will fail straight up. IF you wanted to say they would fail, why did you not say it straight up, or what was your comment for all along then?

 

I don't know what kind of background you have in this area, but have you ever taken higher level mechanical engineering courses? If so, perhaps you could appreciate the uncertainty expressed by mra32, Olds W31 and even myself..

 

We're not bashing you, we just don't know if you're running the numbers or just kicking tires. Suspension and brake components are pretty important as far as safety goes, and making small structural changes can produce unwanted results.. things may still be "safe," but it could also mean your n factor went from 4.6 to 1.3, which is pretty damn borderline to being highly susceptible to failure. I think it's excellent that you're producing products for the W-body community, since no one else is, but our code of ethics as engineers puts safety of the public before all else, and personally I'd rather bring it up to see if my worries are unfounded rather than wait and see.

 

I think this winter (warth providing) I'm going to try to model up the suspension components in Solidworks and use COSMOS to run FEA on parts.. providing the engineering computer lab is open at all over the break.

 

edit: sorry, I didn't read the whole topic through.. seems I'm a little late to the party.

[mra32]

I'll lend a hand with that. PM me if you want help

[mra32]

not to beat a dead horse, but i was doing some research for school and came across this:

 

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html

 

I thought it was related to this discussion.

[dohc v6]

K guys I can add a spherical bearing to the top of the plates. I am doign so with the camber plates for the J-bodys. Here is what we came up with. The bearings are not in as they will be here Monday.

[gpchris]

dooo itt! Please! Also you should make the front mounts adjustable coilover ready.

[Dark Ride]

dooo itt! Please! Also you should make the front mounts adjustable coilover ready.

x2 thats exactly what I want

[dohc v6]

You guys will to pay for them?

[dohc v6]

I am getting $225 for non camber and $325 for camber adjustable for the fronts. If you are willing to pay that much I will make them.

[dohc v6]

Ahh, maybe not that much. More in the range of like 150-225.

[gpchris]

I would.. Most people here wont. Theres really only a few here that are really into these cars..

[Dark Ride]

$150 for a pair of strut mounts that are coilover ready, I don't need them to be adjustable (Unless the stock ones are adjustable, don't think so) I could definetly swing that. Would these have a "pocket" or something for the spring to seat into?