Dark Ride Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 Been working on the TGP and have gotten it to start up and stay running(For the most part) and once the car has warmed-up and I shut it off, if I try to start it again, it won't start. I usually have to wait 4-6 Hours, then it starts up again like nothing was wrong. I know I need a new X-over pipe, and that my O2 sensor is bad. (Been getting Code 45, Rich Exhaust) When it won't start its not getting any fuel, cuz it will start and run for a little bit on starting fluid. I don't have any real ideas as to what would cause this. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks, Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 could be a dead short on one of the wires going to the starter. the fusible links need replaced and wireloomed ill bet you anything. you should just go down to the J/Y and grab a 97 GP starter and slap it in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1234 Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 Ignition module? Once they heat up they don't work. Do you shut it off or does it die? Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 could be a dead short on one of the wires going to the starter. the fusible links need replaced and wireloomed ill bet you anything. you should just go down to the J/Y and grab a 97 GP starter and slap it in there. That is retarded. The car starts, but yet the starter is causing a problem? If it turns over, but wont start, it's probably a FPR problem, possible and injector. Something like the crossover wont cause non start issues, unless the o2 is totally fouled and needs replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Ride Posted January 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 It doesn't always run the best, But it does die if I put it in gear while holding the brakes, and then it won't start. But it won't start if I just shut it off too. If it was a FPR wouldn't it always be a problem, not just after it warmed up? I'm thinking it could be an injector, I'll pull the Intake Manifold off tommorow and get an Ohm Reading. The O2 sensor could be totally fouled, if all my injectors are good I'll try that next. Thanks, Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 What is it with me and people named Ryan? I have been in fights with Ryans all my life Kicked one Ryan's ass in front of a croud of people in junior high, punched this kid Ryan in the face cause he ripped off my other friends walkman, full fist fight with this big cake boy named Ryan that was hella yolked(that was almost scary ). All you guys wired funny or what? I mean this is over my whole life, no joke! what gives? I almost got over the coincidence when you just further proved it. I know everyone knows here that it could be a number of things from the description of the problem, but this asshole attacks what I say? Oh yea there is another Ryan I know that is a big time hater who Was kind of my friend for a long time until he turned tweeker used car stereo dealer and he ended up scratching my front window all up with a diamond ring. The list goes on. the Ryan Phenomenon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 give us all a break and save your lcd screen and stereo ohm/amp/wiring knowledge for a section that is devoted to it. Ryan's also know assholes when they see them. If we are talking about reliability/running issues we are not talking about fusable links from the starter. This Ryan doesn't give a shit about other Ryan's that you know, but if you start telling someone to install a gear reduction starter to "solve" a reliability issue that is obviously way beyond your realm of compreshension, please don't guide them down the retarded path. Unless they ask for it. Then, fire away. Until then, you had best read and try to understand the things that really matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 I say fuel pump is tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 look ryan I have seen your lowered red tgp and it is sick all raked like that. I got no prob with what you say for a suggestion........ .......... all you need to do is check fuel pressure at the valve on the fuel rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 Yes, first step would be to check FP at the rail, or really just see if you can hear the FP prime when you turn the key to the on position. If you have a FP tester it should be 45 primed and - correct me if I'm wrong - what 38 at idle? Ohm the injectors next if that doesn't lead to a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 You say it won't start when it is warm? Does that mean it won't crank when you turn the key? or it cranks but won't fire? If you are running like crap and you know you have a bad cross-over...get it replaced before you try to go any further diagnosing running issues. Your 02 sensor will be toast after a short period of time running with a leaking cross-over. So replace the x-over and 02 for sure before anything else. Then you can look for bad injectors or unless you feel like pulling the plenum to ohm out your injectors. Your ECM will go nutso bonkers trying to trim and reset fuel with a bad 02 and fresh air entering the system with a cracked cross-over. Many people have thought their injectors were bad but replacing the x-over and 02 allowed the ECM to level off and had a perfect running TGP/TSTE! 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1234 Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 im still feeling the iginition module theory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 im still feeling the iginition module theory That's a resounding ditto from me too. Check for spark after you run it til it won't start. If you have spark and it's still not starting, then start chasing a fuel delivery problem. Fuel pumps can fail in many conditions, cold or warm, so that is a possibilty as well. Make sure you check spark before you check for fuel so you don't start a fire. I've seen it happen before. :shock: If it still wont start after these tests, replace the starter with a 97 3100 starter, and slap on a CS-130D alternator on there, and it will be good to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontiac6ksteawd Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 I was about to say I think the module as well. But being you said it was running fine with starting fluid. I am now leaning to a fuel related issue. Check the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. 35-42 PSI is what you are looking for. I could be wrong, someone will correct me if I am. If your PSI is good, replace your fuel filter just because it probly needs it anyways. And then check your fuel injectors. You can get to 2 injectors without taking any part of the motor apart. This is how i found my bad injector. The first one is sitting right behind the oil fill cap. Carefully push in the clip and work the harness off. With a Muti-meter set on 20 ohm. See if it is reading above 12.0. Typically 12.4 to 12.5 is preferred. The other injector sits right in front of the alternator. This one can be more of a pain to get to. but it at least is a starting point. Read the OHM on it just like the other. If those test out alright, then you have to remove the upper intake plenum and test all the injectors. If 1 is bad, I suggest you replace all 6. You dont have to, it is just my recomendation. Find some injectors from a 1996 Buick Riveria non-supercharged. They are the correct flow rates for our motors, and have the newer winding design in them. I got lucky and bought a new set for 20 bucks (ebay listed wrong). You probly wont find that type of a deal anywhere. Anyways, if those diagnosing steps dont get you pointed in the right direction, come back and let us know. I am sure one of the Gurus around here can further help you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Well I have an issue with my TGP where it will not CRANK when it is hot under the hood. The starter is dying and needs to be replaced...but having a 5-speed keeps me from going through the hassle of fixing an intermittent problem until the motor build starts next month. That is why I am looking for a little more info about wen it happens... 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 If it still wont start after these tests, replace the starter with a 97 3100 starter, and slap on a CS-130D alternator on there, and it will be good to go! dude, it would run so friggin good after that. especially if you redo the grounds at the same time with something like this. 2 of the first things to check on if you ever buy one of these TGPs. root of the problem in most cases with all other components besides vac/boost related crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 If it still wont start after these tests, replace the starter with a 97 3100 starter, and slap on a CS-130D alternator on there, and it will be good to go! dude, it would run so friggin good after that. i think David was joking obviously the starter & alternator aren't the problem here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 If it still wont start after these tests, replace the starter with a 97 3100 starter, and slap on a CS-130D alternator on there, and it will be good to go! dude, it would run so friggin good after that. i think David was joking obviously the starter & alternator aren't the problem here. My intentional sarcasm is useless on the Intranet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 If it still wont start after these tests, replace the starter with a 97 3100 starter, and slap on a CS-130D alternator on there, and it will be good to go! dude, it would run so friggin good after that. i think David was joking obviously the starter & alternator aren't the problem here. My intentional sarcasm is useless on the Intranet. I seen this coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Ride Posted January 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 You say it won't start when it is warm? Does that mean it won't crank when you turn the key? or it cranks but won't fire? It cranks but won't fire I pulled the intake manifold off today, and tested the injectors and all of them read 11-12. I know thats not perfect but I'm starting to lean more towards the O2 sensor going nuts. If I remember right the computer runs on a programmed circuit until the O2 sensor reaches 600 degrees, correct? Then it reads info from the sensor to adjust fuel/air ratio. I know for a fact that the crossover is bad, the car has 200K and its the original OEM Pipe. :shock: I can actually feel air blowing out of it. So I'm going to do a Compression Test tommorow, since I haven't done it since I got the car, and what i get will determine whether I should just plan on rebuilding it, or try to get it running as is. I don't have a FP tester so I can't check that, but I can hear the pump running when I first turn the car on. So we'll see what tommorow brings. Thanks, Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I don't know for sure but if you're xover is cracked badly I would think you wouldn't get a 100 percent accurate compression test. Try to run with a new o2 sensor, are you getting spark while it cranks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 You say it won't start when it is warm? Does that mean it won't crank when you turn the key? or it cranks but won't fire? It cranks but won't fire I pulled the intake manifold off today, and tested the injectors and all of them read 11-12. I know thats not perfect but I'm starting to lean more towards the O2 sensor going nuts. If I remember right the computer runs on a programmed circuit until the O2 sensor reaches 600 degrees, correct? Then it reads info from the sensor to adjust fuel/air ratio. I know for a fact that the crossover is bad, the car has 200K and its the original OEM Pipe. :shock: I can actually feel air blowing out of it. So I'm going to do a Compression Test tommorow, since I haven't done it since I got the car, and what i get will determine whether I should just plan on rebuilding it, or try to get it running as is. I don't have a FP tester so I can't check that, but I can hear the pump running when I first turn the car on. So we'll see what tommorow brings. Thanks, Mitch my crossover pipe was almost in two pieces when i removed it and cut off the heat shields. it had cracks all over the place and stunk up the engine bay it was so bad. although, i didn't have the problems you are having. the O2 sensor isn't going to allow the ECM to go into closed loop mode until it gets hot enough, but i don't think that is what is causing your no-start-after-warmed-up problem. i am leaning towards faulty ICM or CPS. check for spark and fuel. even if you don't have a FP tester there should be at least some pressure coming out of the schrader valve on the fuel rail and you can check spark with a timing light of course. good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90_Black_TGP Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 could be a dead short on one of the wires going to the starter. the fusible links need replaced and wireloomed ill bet you anything. you should just go down to the J/Y and grab a 97 GP starter and slap it in there. Not taking sides, but I have to agree, sort of. I currently have the same starter problem on my 90. Same issues, starts fine cold, but after warming up and getting hot, it won't crank or cranks slow. And I KNOW its not the ignition modules, they are new. I went as far as pulling the column and checking the harness all the way to the starter. I have just written mine off to a heatsink problem and when it gets warmer outside and I feel like messing with the whole starter removal ordeal, I'll replace it with a new one this time and not a reman, the one that is in it is a reman and it only lasted about 3 months before it started screwing up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 So the 97 3100 starter is a direct replacement? Does it have the same ugly sound as the 90 TGP starter? I hate the sound everytime I turn the key! :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 No, It sounds like you are starting up a newer car. nice and quiet. If someones talking you might not even hear it. Unlike the old one. you would probably have to repeat yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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