THe_DeTAiL3R Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 al-mart stripped the oil pan bolt on my dad's old Suburban.... If I take my car to a fast oil change place I tell them, just change the oil, don't touch anything else...and I watch to make sure all they do is change the oil and nothing else If you get it done cheap tell them what to do, and watch them like a hawk. Bring in your own oil filter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Joseph Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 They also use Fram filters... the shittiest filters made... The least they could do would be use the Super-Tech filters that they also sell (made by Champion Labs, and are actually a pretty good filter)... Mike I'm going to have to respectfully disagreee on the Fram filter part. My family has been using Fram filters on their cars for years, and have had no problems whatsoever. Then again, different things happen to different people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 It is possible to use them forever without a problem... and car engines are less prone to have something flowing in the oil in the head tear the engine up... Bike engines on the other hand... My '85 Nighthawk 700S has a Fram filter on it when I bought it... it only had 7500 miles on it, so it was probably only the second or third oil change. Awhile went by and I start hearing this ticking from the top end that starts getting louder. After 3000 miles or so, it was loud enough that I took the tank, coils, and valve cover off to see what was wrong... It ended up that there was signifigant lash on 2 of the intake valves... The only problem is that this bike had "hydrolic valve adjustors" which are basically like Lifters, except they are stationary below one side of the filger folllower, which is below the cam, and the other side of the finger follower is on the end of the valve. BIG PITA to get to (well, not actually really hard, but you do have to degree in both cams when putting it back together... Anyway, I get these 2 hydrolic adjustors out and clean them out in kerosene with the special tool, and lowe and behold... a piece of cardboard comes out of each of them. I immagine it was stuck at the bottom of the adjustor where there is a spring and check-ball on a small orfice, which stopped the oil from getting through, and beat up the insides of the adjusters... As it was, it only cost me $150 in parts (which I got from my parts bike anyway, so didn't cost me anything), and one slightly bend finger follower that's still "ok." Had I not cought it when I did, it would have cost me a head, an intake cam, 2 finger followers, and 2 intake valves. At this point, I started looking around online at the tests, and people taking apart filters and stuff... Turns out Fram filters have cardboard end-caps where other mfgs have stamped steel... so I found out where the cardboard came from I guess Then I found all these stories from people who worked there that said basically "I get them for free, and I won't use them on my car," and "I asked about the cardboard end caps and was told that anybody would have a hard time proving in court that our filters screwed up their engine, so we don't care." So yes, I don't like them... and now, if I see a car with one on it that I'm looking to buy, I usually will look REALLY hard at EVERYTHING and listen REALLY hard to the engine before buying it... although, a couple of them I've just walked away from after seeing the filter because they wanted what the car was worth... wasn't worth the gamble to me because of what they wanted out of the car. You may say this is a little over the top, but I've been burned once by them... it WILL NOT happen again. BTW, I typically use either AC Delco or Pure 1 filters and either Amsoil synth or Mobil 1 synth in everything that doesn't leak oil. (I use the same filters, but just Valvoline in my '87 bonne because it leaks about a quart in 3000 miles, which means I replace 3 quarts per oil change, although I change the filter halfway). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 They also use Fram filters... the shittiest filters made... The least they could do would be use the Super-Tech filters that they also sell (made by Champion Labs, and are actually a pretty good filter)... Mike I'm going to have to respectfully disagreee on the Fram filter part. My family has been using Fram filters on their cars for years, and have had no problems whatsoever. Then again, different things happen to different people... i have to disagree there, just because a oil filter has not gernaded your engines ove the years (yet), dosen't mean that it's a good filter. look at the tests, and there are many, many independent tests out there. fram comes out on bottom time and time again. and furthermore i see no good reason to use fram considering that around here i can get a AC delco filter for LESS then a fram filter. it just makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 wev used fram for years too, and Fram doesnt have cardboard on there oil filters, and who runs the same filter for 7k? spend the xtra 3$ and get one every oil change , than you wouldnt have this whole breaking apart in ur motor because its getting old from bieng in ur engine forever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwingvksm Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 They also use Fram filters... the shittiest filters made... The least they could do would be use the Super-Tech filters that they also sell (made by Champion Labs, and are actually a pretty good filter)... Mike I'm going to have to respectfully disagreee on the Fram filter part. My family has been using Fram filters on their cars for years, and have had no problems whatsoever. Then again, different things happen to different people... http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=356326#356326 I'll never touch a fucking Fram filter for the rest of my life. Wouldn't piss on it to put out a fire... :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 how do they collapse? the ones i have are metal, not paper, or cardboard or what ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 wev used fram for years too, and Fram doesnt have cardboard on there oil filters, and who runs the same filter for 7k? spend the xtra 3$ and get one every oil change , than you wouldnt have this whole breaking apart in ur motor because its getting old from bieng in ur engine forever Hold on there Tweak... the BIKE had 7500 on it, not the filter! That was an oil/air cooled bike, so I changed the oil every 5k with synthetic, even though it said 4k for dino oil... and yes, I changed the filter at the same time. I do, typically, however, change the oil filter every 5k and synthetic oil every 10k on my cars... same for my water cooled bikes too... 7500 is, however, the "standard duty" oil change interval in everything GM since the early 80's though, so even if I had left it on there for 7k, that'd still been in the service interval. Fram filters DO have cardboard end caps though... How do you know your filters don't? Have you cut them apart? The end caps I'm talking about are INSIDE the filter housing (which is always steel) at the ends of the filter material. FramThese filters are manufactured by Allied Signal, Inc. See this email from an Allied Signal production engineer. Fram Extra Guard PH8A This filter cartridge has a small outside diameter with a rather low filter element surface area (193 sqin), and features cardboard end caps that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals the rough metal backplate to the cardboard end cap and easily leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. If you have a noisy valve train at startup, this filter is likely the cause. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak. The backplate has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow. The telltale signs for a Fram Extra Guard are: It has 8 small holes for the oil inlet and a thin, cheap looking backplate, and is currently stamped with a "2Y". There are 5 very small crimps holding the gasket in place. If you look into the center hole all the way to the top of the filter, you will see a kind of "button" in the end cap of the cartridge (which looks like it's made of metal from there). This is the plastic bypass valve. Exploded view: Average Retail Price $3 Cartridge Length 4.125 inches Cartridge Outside Diameter 3.000 inches Cartridge Inside Diameter 1.375 inches Cartridge Pleats 34 Cartridge End Cap Type Cardboard Anti-Drainback Valve Type Nitrile rubber diaphragm Bypass Valve Type Spring-loaded plastic Element Type Paper media, stamped metal seam Element Length 47.5 inches Element Width 4.063 inches Element Surface Area 193 square inches Shell Thickness 0.015 inches Backplate Thickness 0.089 inches Gasket Type Nitrile rubber Fram Tough Guard TG8A This filter has an improved filter element with more surface area (248 sqin), a heavy silicone anti-drainback valve with a good sealing surface, the same plastic pressure relief valve but with an integral screen to keep out large particles, and enough inlet holes for good flow. In my opinion, the only real drawback to this filter is that it is capped on each end with cardboard instead of metal. The telltale signs for a Fram Tough Guard filter are: It has a better backplate that is usually shiny, with six larger holes for the inlet and 6 spot welds around the them. There are 6 large crimps holding the gasket in place. When you look through the inlet holes, you can see the orange anti-drainback valve. If you look into the center hole all the way to the top of the filter, you will see a kind of "button" in the end cap of the cartridge (which looks like it's made of metal from there). This is the plastic bypass valve. Average Retail Price $5 Cartridge Length 4.125 inches Cartridge Outside Diameter 3.000 inches Cartridge Inside Diameter 1.625 inches Cartridge Pleats 50 Cartridge End Cap Type Cardboard Anti-Drainback Valve Type Silicone rubber diaphragm Bypass Valve Type Spring-loaded plastic with integral screen Element Type Paper media, stamped metal seam Element Length 61.0 inches Element Width 4.063 inches Element Surface Area 248 square inches Shell Thickness 0.015 inches Backplate Thickness 0.187 inches Gasket Type Nitrile rubber, PTFE-treated Far Left: extra guard cartridge. Left: Double Guard. Right: Tough Guard Fram Double Guard DG8A This is one of the most expensive filters you can buy. Inside is a basic Fram Extra Guard (PH8A) filter element that has larger diameter holes at the end and has been pre-oiled. You can see this in the picture above (far left). I assume this is to hold the Teflon particles in the filter element before the unit is installed. Don't put Teflon in your engine. It does not belong there! DuPont does not recommend using their Teflon product in internal combustion engines. Although it has the lowest filter element surface area (193 sqin), it does have a clever spring-loaded nitrile rubber anti-drainback valve and bypass valve combination. The telltale signs for a Fram Tough Guard filter are: It has a better backplate that is usually shiny, with six larger holes for the inlet and 6 spot welds around the them. The backplate may be stamped with a "1K". There are 6 large crimps holding the gasket in place. The anti-drainback valve diaphragm behind the inlet holes is black. If you look into the center hole all the way to the top of the filter, you will not see the "button" in the end cap of the cartridge like the other Frams. Average Retail Price $10 Cartridge Length 4.125 inches Cartridge Outside Diameter 3.000 inches Cartridge Inside Diameter 1.625 inches Cartridge Pleats 38 Cartridge End Cap Type Cardboard Anti-Drainback Valve Type Nitrile rubber diaphragm Bypass Valve Type Nitrile rubber, integral Element Type Paper media, stamped metal seam Element Length 47.5 inches Element Width 4.063 inches Element Surface Area 193 square inches Shell Thickness 0.015 inches Backplate Thickness 0.187 inches Gasket Type Nitrile rubber From here: http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html The following is also from the above, linked at the beginning of the Fram filters part of the page... Follow the above link to see pictures of the insides of Fram filters... Russell, I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey. I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's mouth, as it were. I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow capacity. The paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread. I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their claims are entirely and completely marketing bullshit. If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel, will do the job of filtration to perfection. Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can quote me anytime. {name omitted to protect submitter} 'nuff said. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Alright, sorry, i thought u ment 7k on the filter, my bad, jeese, my car dont have a fram filter cause the guy just changed it when i got it, and it does have a fram air filter, whats wrong with those? i guess no more fram for me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Alright, sorry, i thought u ment 7k on the filter, my bad, jeese, my car dont have a fram filter cause the guy just changed it when i got it, and it does have a fram air filter, whats wrong with those? i guess no more fram for me.... Surface loading media, they don't hold much dirt before they're plugged up... plus not having as much filter material as OE to start with. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 ic, well, what brand would you reccomend for oil filter, fuel filter, and Air filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Id never take my car there, I can do everything myself, even though an oil change with new filter costs me roughly $25.00. But Id rather do it myself because well I know how to and can, plus I dont want some idiot working on it that will forget something or mess with something that he shouldnt be. As a mater of fact, there was one k-mart with a tire and lube, that actually got closed because nobody went because it was so shitty. But if you insist on bringing it somewhere to get that done, at least go to the dealer, because at least there the mechanics know what there doing because they have all been trained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genEus Posted July 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I got my answer about Wal-Mart, which totally makes sense, of course... But I'm still amazed at people saying "I just wanna make sure everything goes well"... I mean, I usually supervise all the oil changes... what is there to screw up? You unscrew the bolt, you drain the oil out, you replace the filter, you close the nut, you put in oil. WHAT is there to screw up?? OTOH, which oil filters and oil are the best? Next time I will make sure to ask what filters and oil people use before I go out to get my oil changed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z34_nut Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Well needless to say, My girlfriends mother goes there all the time, not under my recomendation of course, but she has never had a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 for air filters i use pureoilator. then for oil filters, my cars seen a AC Delco PF52 every change for a LONG time now. however pureoilators are good, and for the price wallmarts "supertech" filters are prety damn good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 ic, well, what brand would you reccomend for oil filter, fuel filter, and Air filter? well, I'll tell you that it's not just Wal-Mart that uses Fram filters... Pretty much any Penzoil filter is a re-badged Fram filter, and the Super Duty V-10 Mopar filter is a Fram Extra Guard too... Oil filters: Pure 1, AC Delco, or Purolator Air filters: AC Delco or Purolator Fuel filters: AC Delco Oil: Pretty much anything is "OK" because it all has to meet the same requirements... Believe it or not, pretty much anything that says "Super Tech" on it from Wal-mart is decent stuff... BUT Amsoil and Mobil 1 are supposedly about the best going because they are both from synthetic base stock (not all "synthetics" are from synthetic base stock, some are actually REALLY refined dino oil) There are people who make good oil filters, probably because that's what a lot of people look at, and there are comparo-tests and everything... Air filters, on the other hand aren't quite as scrutanized other than the classic "K&N Vs. Everything" tests. To get the best mix of good filtration and amount of debris an air filter will hold, a depth loading media paper filter is BY FAR THE way to go. To my knowledge, the only depth loading media filters are, anything OE (specifically AC Delco) and Purolator. I use AC Delco stuff in my car, and Puroilator air filters in my wife's Neon. Fuel filters: There is NO messing around when it comes to fuel filters: AC Delco. Basically, if AC Delco sells something, it's usually pretty good because it has to meet the requirements of NEW GM vehicles... Basically, there is no governing body telling the aftermarket that they have to make good stuff, and you can sometimes get complete shit from the aftermarket, Fram is a good example of this. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donutboy97 Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 man, whats with everyone taking their cars out to get their oil changed??? doesn;t anyone work on their own cars anymore??? :?: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 It has been my experience that, as a general rule, either: 1. People are lazy and don't care to learn to do anything they can pay someone else to do. or 2. People believe that since cars are so complex now days, there is nothing simple about them. This has been made worse by the Check Engine light that comes on when the vehicle needs an oil change, and most people don't know you have to reset it by pressing the throttle 3 times with the engine off, so right after they change their own oil, the SES light comes on and they freak out. or 3. See #1 Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 I got my answer about Wal-Mart, which totally makes sense, of course... But I'm still amazed at people saying "I just wanna make sure everything goes well"... I mean, I usually supervise all the oil changes... what is there to screw up? You unscrew the bolt, you drain the oil out, you replace the filter, you close the nut, you put in oil. WHAT is there to screw up?? OTOH, which oil filters and oil are the best? Next time I will make sure to ask what filters and oil people use before I go out to get my oil changed Overtorquing the oil drain plug and eventually stripping it, not making sure the filter gasket is seated, not making sure the old filter gasket is stuck to the block (rare case but it can happen) just to name a few! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streetdreams Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 bro I've worked the entire spectrum. new dealers, small dealers, canadian tire, midas, mr lube etc after all this if I left the trade today I would only take my car to a dealer or a place recommended by a friend (who has EXCELLENT service) resaon being things break and shit happens, its the rule to life. its not neccesarily the guy who was workin on its problem somtimes things are broken and not noticed till theyre serviced and than they fall apart BUT NOW you got either 4 dumbasses lookin at it saying WTF and they dont know theyre heads from theyre asses and theres no real techs around to improvise and theyre scared and thats the state of the repairs or deal your about to get. not nice eh? but if its at the dealer they usually have a foreman with LOTS of experience who is gonna take a look and I would trust that guy and his judgment and he's gonna make shit happen cuz he gets paid pretty well just to do that. thats my angle on it. you pay more dealer but your pride and joy is taken care of by people who know what theyre doing and what to do if an emergency pops up. I laugh remembering back all the times in a shit shop we had some guys M3 or GTP act up and the managers are just like "well we cant cover that because that coulda happened before the car actually came in for service, therefore take us to court because we arent going to do anything without proof from you that it was us" now is that the shit you wanna deal with? you get what you pay for man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWeb80 Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Anyone ever use Wal-mart's Tire and Lube Express? :devil: :fruity: That question scares me.....I have friends who work at walmart and know the guys that work in TLE and have told me stories I was scared to hear..... I don't trust anyone workin on my car.....if they do, i'm right there watching wheather they like it or not. O, and WIX Filters all the way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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