thinking of a tgp as a "next" car.

[dbtk2]

I think it's far from stupid to argue for several reasons. Look at a page for GTP 1/4 times vs. the only page we have (mfewtrail's). How can you make that a fair comparison to base judgement off of? Fow all we know, if we had a couple thousand TGPs listed, we could have had several stock 14's, too. Pinning the results of 15-20 TGP/TSTEs versus thousands upon thousands of newer GTPs is hardily a level bases to draw conclusions from. I'm not saying the average wouldn't be in favor of the GTPs, but I do believe it wouldn't be as drastic as everyone makes it out to be.

 

I also agree that its not a completely fair comparison to compare a hanful of TGP's to hundreds and maybe thousands of GTPs. But I do think that the TGP 1/4 mile list is definately a close reflection of what TGP's can do.

 

And I don't think elevation is an available excuse for every slow stock (and in some cases, moddified) GTP out there. As for the TGPs that could only manage a 16.3.....all I can say is....I find it very strange, that after 15 years and quite a few miles, there are turbo GPs running LESS than the best of 15.3 the magazines' drivers managed. It seems odd, that with cracked crossover pipes, clogged/dirty injectors, cheap tires, etc. there are still TGP/TSTEs running the same low to mid 15s stock that the new ones supposedly only did. Who knows what the issue was. All I know is that 65 extra hp should do better than knock one second off the n/a 1/4 mile time, so who knows what happened there.

 

I also don't think elevation is the excuse for all of the slow ones out there, but its not like its only a few of them. There are a number that have slower times because of higher elevation.

 

Well magazines rarely ever get a car to go as quick as an owner who has learned the car for a while. Don't get me wrong, those guys test a lot of cars and know how to drive...but they don't have time to learn how to best drive the cars. You can almost always bet that you can get an additional half second from what the magazines say. And if you read on Jeff M's page, he explains how there are differences from car to car. Cars can each vary enough to make 1 second difference. Which explains some of the slower GTP's. And some, not all, of the TGP's that are running those low 15's stock are low mileage cars. A lot of people stored these cars hoping they would be collectors items. Like I said in another post my STE had 72k on it when I ran my 14.9 and it had replacement struts and good tires. (not cheap tires) It was not that far off of a new car.

 

Yes and no. While less mileage usually equals less damage, I've read PLENTY of accounts of trannys going out on bone stock GTPs, fuel resistor issue, s/c going out, etc. My sister wanted to get a '97 & up GTP a year ago, but after reading some of the horror stories on the local boards, she elected to stick with her '95 SE. While it is unfortunate that most of the TGPs were in the hands of morons before people that cared about them got ahold of them, newer GTPs are far from immune to the disease of poor maintenance, and lazy owners. Let's not forget that, now that they're affordable to most, a great many GTPs have been owned by kids who have no doubt beaten the living piss out of them mechanically, no matter how many purdy reflective decals, and 18" rims, or SS grill inserts they've put on them.

 

Yes, you always do have to take into account how well it was previously maintained when buying a new car, but thats how it is with any car. Whether you buy a GTP or a TGP previous neglect will come into play in maintenance. All cars have their horror stories, and you also have to remember that those horror stories are from a couple members out of 20,000 or so members on ClubGP. So its not like they are really common problems.

 

But GTP's with halfway decent drivers pull 14.3-14.5's OFTEN. Believe me, the money you put into a TGP to make it go fast, if you put half that much into a GTP it will gain twice as much time at the strip....$ per $ an L67 is MUCH cheaper to mod. $1k into an L67 and you're running mid 13's. $1k into a LG5 and your running low-mid 14's..maybe.

 

See, this is where you and I don't see eye to eye. I politely disagree on 2 accounts:

 

1. That you can't get a TGP into the 13s with $1,000. I'll explain why further below in this post.

 

2. I don't buy for a second that putting $1,000 into any '97 & up GTP will put you at mid 13s. I think there are FAR more exceptions to that rule than you're giving credit for. I'm also a member of not one, but TWO local GP groups, ILGPC (of which, I'm the only member with a pre '97 GP ), and CGPC. While many of the GTPs have hit 13s, there are plenty others who have done quite a bit of work, and are still in the 14s. Hell, don't take my word for it. These are right off of the main clubgp:

 

Can you tell me how much it cost to get this GTP to 14.5?. And that's a 2002 with only 26K miles on it.

 

Or how about this one?

 

In fact, there's quite a few pages of mid 14+ second GTPs, in spite of the year and mileage, and in a LOT of cases, decent amount of mods.

 

Obviously not EVERY GTP will be capable of this, there is always a few cars that just aren't gonna go fast easily, but the large majority of GTP's with $1k in the RIGHT mods can make a GTP with a decent driver into the 13's, I've seen it done numerous times. My moms SSEi w/$500 in mods ran a 14.68 w/2.3 60' in 80 degree weather, and its SIGNIFICANTLY heavier than a GTP. Get a decent launch (like maybe a 2.1 60') and PCM and a CAI and you're in the 13's in a 4000+lb car! GTP's are 500lbs lighter. You have to do the right mods, you can't just throw $1k into random mods and hope it runs fast. And some of those are just a case of people not having any idea how to drive their cars.

 

You wanna know what that swap cost me? I don't really think you do. The swap cost me a little over a grand, although I didn't use the heads that were on that engine, I used some that I already had lying around that were completely rebuilt and had a valve job done on them, those cost me $110. All the parts for the engine came out to around $500. 3100 Throttle Cable, $23. 3100 Power steering pump, $55. Had to buy a 3100 motor mount, $20. New accessory belt. Oil & Filter, Coolant, Power steering fluid, $40. New Plugs & Wires, $40. New Coolant Temp sensor because I couldn't for the life of me get the one out of the old head, $25.

 

Here in lies the problem. Don't take this the wrong way, but.....you made that project cost WAY too much. Looking over your list, unless you've left some very expensive items out, I could literally have gotten everything it took to do that swap for about $500, with change probably left over. You gotta' be shrewd. There's junkyards with very late model motors (low mileage, and gauranteed/tested to be running), and some of those are very cheap. I could probably pick up an ENTIRE 3100, all accessories included (PS pump, motor mounts, accessory belt, etc), for $200-$300 at the right yards. There's eBay for many of the miscellenous stuff (gaskets, temp sensor, etc), where things go dirt cheap. I can get parts from GM at wholesale, but that's a personal advantage, so I won't use that as a method of reducing costs for this argument's sake. And not that they added a ton of money, but I don't know that I would include things like the oil/filter, accessory belt, coolant, plugs & wires, etc as part of the cost. I'd kind of consider those as part of the maintenance.

 

So...for mods, as long as your TGP is in 100% OEM running condition, we've got....

 

Top Gun 160 chip: $275

FFP UD pulley: $120

AM cat & mufflers: $200

3100 top end swap: Around $500

 

Total: $1,095

Results: High 13s.

 

I don't consider that too shabby.

 

 

Ok....that took way too long to edit and type up. I'll continue this train of thought later. Right now, I'm starving...... :shock:

 

Well, not really. The accessory belt you're still gonna have to pay for, because you have a smaller pulley, so you have to get a shorter belt. Yeah, you probably can get a PS pump and a 3100 for like $2-300. But you would only get the parts that I paid $185 for. (and you're not getting rebuilt heads with valve work done) You can probably get the throttle cable at a yard too, but I went to the dealer because I figured I might as well use new parts since it was only $23. Yeah, you can always buy parts on ebay, but realistically people aren't going to sit on ebay to try to get every little gasket they need for cheap. I ALSO get parts for wholesale, and they still cost me that much. Yeah, some of that stuff you don't need, but I figured why put it together with old parts. So you take out the plugs and wires, save $40. Take out the Coolant sensor, save $25. I'll dig up the reciepts here and post the prices. But saving a lot of hassle by going through the dealer and getting the parts at wholesale it will cost $500 for the gaskets, bolts, cam, chain, damper, etc. Then you have to get the topend, you say $200. Now you're at $700. Then the random hoses & clamps and stuff to make the topend work right with the turbo. $20+ Then you have to come up with some sort of intake hose to run from the intercooler to tb, since the tb is now in a different spot. Then the throttle cable, basically you are at $750. Then the oil and coolant which isn't really maintenance because you HAVE to do it for the swap. My oil was nearly new and my coolant was flushed a couple months before, I wasn't going to do it anyways. But, I still won't count it in the price.

 

So:

$290 for Chip & T-Stat

$30 for K&N Filter (required with chip)

$120 for FFP UD Pulley

$750 for Topend Swap

$150 for removed cat/magnaflow mufflers

 

$1,340, results high 13's.

 

Spend $1340 on GTP:

$550 ZZP SS Intercooler

$300 1.9:1 Rocker Arms

$200 DHP PCM

$63 3.2" Supercharger Pulley

 

$1113, results mid 13's & $227 in pocket, or spend $219 on a CAI and put $8 in pocket.

 

DTBK there is nothing wrong with my 40th other than it's a piece of shit.

 

If there is nothing wrong with it, then why is it a POS???

 

Shawn

[skalor]

I have both a '89 TGP and an '99 GTX so I can bring a unique perspective to the table. I can tell you that my TGP can't keep up with my GTX. My only mods on my GTX are are a u-bend delete(useless mod), and an Intense PCM. I have a 3.4 pulley, 3" downpipe, and O2 simulator sitting at my house right now though. Anyways, I don't think an LG5 will ever be able to compete with the L67 in terms of power output. The fastest LG5 powered vehicle is TurboZ24(Curtis Walker), and his is not even an LG5 anymore and it's in a cavalier no less. There are full weight GTPs running 11s on stock bottom ends. Until recently we only had one TGP running 13's, and that was by word of mouth. Also take into consideration that they run a roots blower, which are as inefficient as running our T25s at 20 psi. If you want to see what a GTP can do, look at the turbo ones that are becoming more common. They're running 11's on 15 psi on both stock L36 & L67 internals. Don't get me wrong though, I love my TGP and I plan to keep modding it, but once I hit 13's I'm done.

[dbtk2]

There are full weight GTPs running 11s on stock bottom ends.

 

There definatley are. Not only that but most in the 11's have the stock M90 blower, which as you said is not very efficient. Our GTP in the pic above has run a best of 12.08 @ 114.3 and it has stock internals besides 1.9 rockers, stronger valvesprings, and different pushrods. Stock cam, stock heads, stock pistons, rods, crank, etc... It has the M90. The farthest the engine has been torn down was to put the valvesrings and rockers in which required pulling the valve covers.

 

Shawn

[RareGMFan]

I'm short on time, so I'll be brief this time, lol.

 

$290 for Chip & T-Stat

$30 for K&N Filter (required with chip)

$120 for FFP UD Pulley

$750 for Topend Swap

$150 for removed cat/magnaflow mufflers

 

$1,340, results high 13's.

 

Spend $1340 on GTP:

$550 ZZP SS Intercooler

$300 1.9:1 Rocker Arms

$200 DHP PCM

$63 3.2" Supercharger Pulley

 

$1113, results mid 13's & $227 in pocket, or spend $219 on a CAI and put $8 in pocket.

 

Yeah, I forgot about the filter and stat, but.....for the GTP.... don't you need an aftermarket exhaust to help support those mods and keep K/R down? Few more bucks there, too. Now you're almost at the same amount of money for maybe a half a second quicker car. And that's not even for sure, yet. You still have to get your car fine tuned to optimize the swap, and then run it at the track to see what it can do. So we are right at where my point was. I never said they're equals, I said they're a lot closer then people make them out to be. Throw in the factor that you can often pick up a TGP under $1K, and it just makes it that much closer.

 

And on that swap.....I like to always go new parts, too, but when you're talking about a low mileage, late model engine (as you can get with any 3X00), I wouldn't be too worried about everything being new. And those parts are on eBay very often. I'd take the little bit of extra time to get anything I wanted new off of there. I suppose if you're in a dier need for speed right NOW!, you'll pay the full, of the shelf prices. But if a can save, and get nearly as good as new parts through a 30K mile motor, or search eBay for a week (and believe me, in a week, you can find most anything on eBay), I definitely would. Just that much more in your pocket. Consider it a reward for your patience.

 

I'll comment on the rest one I get some time. Of course, I've been saying that about working on the cars, too, for the past year.

[erich]

I actually go to the tracks and see the cars run and do my runs. The GTP's and even Buick GS's give our cars a run for our money. TGP's rarely run, yes we have seen the engines or hybrids run in J and L bodies but not in actual GP's. Most of the times we see of a TGP are benchmark. Until you get more drivers and more cars down the strip as much as the 97+ GTP/GS guys you will have a tough time comparing, or even me buying a reasonable comparison.

 

In my opinoin it would take a lot of modifications to a TGP engine to get it running anything below 14.5. Yeah you can chip them, increase boost with a grainger valve, swap this or that but there are only a couple modified TGP or TSTE's that would even. Mostly Stock GTP's and GS's with opened cold air intakes(missing headlight) smaller pulley's pretty much dominate the running.

 

The one thing going for TGP's are the ability to do a manual trans conversion rather easy using stock parts. The L67 cars can spend more on LSD's and other trans builds and get a consistant off the line drive.

 

They call it test and tune for a reason, test your car out and tune it , and try it again.