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Here's a picture from back when the black car was in better days.

I'll have to find some pictures. Best ones I have are from 10+ years ago when the black one was in far better shape. Long story short, engine blew up, it sat outside. Then I ended up with it and moved it to indoor storage but the time outside had already taken its toll. Right now its very dusty and sad looking and buried in the back of storage so its hard to even see it right now. Last couple weeks I've been daily driving my red one. Made me realize how much I've missed the turbo cars. I think technically speaking red/gray was the most rare color combo. If you'd have asked me years ago I'd have been on board with the gray interior all day long. Now I think the tan works with the gold wheels and badging. I'm torn because the chassis of the black car IS that much better. But I've put insane amounts of work into making the red one as good as it presently is. Not sure if rarity of the color combos really moves me like it would used to. Maybe I can use that to my advantage to get more money out of the black one. Some guy on FB wanted to buy both but wanted to pay a very small sum for them. I dono I think they tend to wear arrest me red better then black. I think whatever happens the sale of one and a bunch of parts will fund the restore of the other. I'm still very much torn as the black one when it was running really drove fantastically. I'm just rambling at this point.

For me, definitely the Black one. It being Black...and having Medium Slate Gray cloth, that is uber rare in the TGP World. You know me, rarity is a big deal and that one is definitely incredibly rare and sought after. I firmly believe that even though it's not in the better shape, you'll regret selling it later.

i was gonna whip this out but 94 olds beat me to it

If you like the red, keep the red one. It will be easier. I would go the torturous route because I would want the black/gray cloth one. That is what I want if I can find one. Or maybe the red one and swap to the gray cloth.

Are you sure there isn’t another notch on the dimmer? Or is there a chance the dimmer switch could be defective? I can turn everything off when the lights are on, then it goes to full backlight brightness with all of the VFDs dimmed a bit. Then there is detent that brings all of the VFDs to full brightness level. After that, you have the detent that turns on the interior lights. I know for certain my 88,89 and 92 Regal had/have this, as did my 94 Silverado. The 88 and 89 both had the digital dash, and I could run it at full brightness level when the lights were on.

The point of dimming the various dash lights when the headlights are turned-on is to NOT DESTROY YOUR NIGHT VISION. Your pupils dilate in low-light conditions. They contract in bright light. When you're looking out into darkness, somewhat lit by your headlights, you want your pupils dilated to bring as much light as possible onto your retinas--so you can still see where your headlights are not directly pointing--to the sides, and further down the roadway. Bright dash lights cause your pupils to contract. The opposite of what you want, and what is "safe". Of course, you could CLEAN ALL THE DASH LIGHT LENSES, and REPLACE ALL THE BULBS WITH NEW INCANDESCENT LAMPS (direct replacement, not cheap-junk Chinese LEDs.) I guarantee that any original incandescent light bulbs from the 1990s are worn-out even if they still "work". You'll see that the glass "bulb" has become silvered, there's plenty of light being generated by the filament, but it doesn't get out of the darkened glass bulb. For that matter, it's EXACTLY the same with incandescent headlights. "New" headlights with clean, shiny, non-corroded reflectors and non-silvered glass will be brighter at the same voltage than "old" headlights.

I reckon you could find an entire car with a good LH0 for less then the cost of a reman engine. Then you can at least drive it and put a known quantity in the car I'm so scared of reman things these days, you might get something good, you might get a even bigger disaster then what you have already.

So as some of you know I've recently pulled my red 90' TGP from its 9 years long slumber. I've been enjoying it quite a bit. Which has made me rethink selling all my TGP stuff... for the time being. However... I don't think I need 2 of these damn things. So help me decide which stays and which goes. Red 1990 TGP: Pros: Red/Tan leather/Sunroof/CD player 151,000 Miles Has the engine from my old wrecked TGP in it so approximately 40-50,000 fewer miles than the chassis, Runs great. recently rebuilt transmission Presently Running and driving Vacuum Brake converted Have brand new Turbo/Pontiac emblems in a box for it Body is pretty clean rust wise, no immediate concerns Rear subframe converted to 2g lat links 96' Front and rear brakes Cons: Needs a paint job Been in a few accidents, repaired... not the best. Could really use an entire Driver side B pillar replacement (have most of those parts) but is passable enough as is. Only original body panels are the pass door and fender. literally every other part has been replaced for one reason or another Black 1990 TGP: Pros: Black/Gray cloth/Tape deck I think 110,000 or someplace about there miles body is straight as an arrow Used to be owned by @LukeZ34so it has forum history 94' rear brakes Have a supposedly good engine on a stand for it. Cons: Also could use a paint job, not as bad but not good either Been off the road since about 2011, presently stored indoors Needs an engine - It ran but had very minimal oil pressure. Will need the fuel system totally flushed before it gets running. Still has PowerMaster brakes - worked last time it ran but it needs to go regardless. Obviously the black car is the better base on paper. But my irrational part loves how they look in red. Whats you guys take?

Just my $.02....The one you enjoy driving the most is the one you keep. There is something to be said about a mechanically sorted, but less than visually perfect vehicle that you can simply jump in and drive without worry. As much as I hate to say it, any 1st Gen W that isn't a total beater is relatively rare these days. Individual rarities within that are almost irrelevant when it comes to market value of these cars and I would go for the colour combo I like better, rather than the rarer combo every single time.

Both are pretty clean underneath. Not Southern California clean but pretty good - I have no concerns about their integrity. Obviously the black one isn't looking as hot now that it sat out side for a time. It likely won't be available till next spring at soonest as its in the very back of a pole barn and given that its October its probably well blocked in by other cars for winter storage by now. If you're interested PM me and we can take it from there. I have all sorts of parts that could be included including an engine. Its for sure not drivable without completely flushing the fuel out at minimum.

Cloth.

My opinion would be to keep the car that is running and driving and start to do the body and paint work on it. I'm not sure how bad the exterior on the red TGP is. Body work can get expensive. I guess I would need some pictures of the red TGP.

I would like to disable the way the dash, HUD and gauge cluster bulbs dim when turning on the fog lights/headlights. However I would like to keep the incremental dimming feature of the interior courtesy lights after the car has been shut off. Is this possible to do? I`m studying the diagrams trying to answer my own question but coming up short.

It never dawned on me before THAT was the reason for the max brightness setting....but it does make a ton of sense now that I think about it. Pretty sure My 89 stayed on max brightness when I had it, as the automatic headlights kicked on before I would consider it to be dark enough to warrant turning the lights on....making the digital dash too dim on any other setting.

He put the 94 style next to the instrument cluster with the knob? I always liked the pushbutton one better looks and uniqueness-wise, but I didn't realize it was functionally superior as well. The manual for the 94 doesn't mention having a MAX setting. I guess they didn't think it was needed because digital dash wasn't available in 94.

I just want to update everyone that it was the starter that was the problem.

Move the slider all the way up to MAX, right before INT. It has its own detent. Grand Prix should have the ability too, but it says to move it to HI. Don't have a GP any more so can't verify it's truly 100% as bright as lights-off brightness, but the Cutlass one definitely is. That VFD is scorching bright at night.

All my Cutlasses had the feature where you could force it to full brightness at night, essentially overriding "night mode" with park/headlamps on. I can't remember if the TGP was lacking that feature or not.

I think youd have to do it by generation, as there are some significant changes by generation as well as intent (when you get to the later years there was more of a focus on handling handling vs the earlier focus on comfort handling). In addition, its important to consider that skidpad Gs do not equal handling. Ive driven race cars that would do an epic skidpad number but are so ill handling in transition/under braking/whatever, that they are virtually undriveable. I have the most experience with 1st gen w-bodies, and my vote there would be for the FE3 level Grand Prix coupe with the 245 wide tires. Though I suspect/wonder if the 1990 olds international with FE3 and the quad 4 would be the ultimate iteration for handling. Ive never driven one (almost nobody has) so I cant say definitively, hence my mention above of the 245 tire equipped GP. For gen 1.5, Im not sure. For the last generation, its most likely the 2008 GP GXP. The fact they fitted reverse stagger tires (and engineered the suspension to utilize this setup) tells me someone understood how to make an FWD car handle.

Doesn't the dimmer switch already allow this? My Regal has a detent immediately before it turns on the interior lights where the cluster and all the displays are at full brightness. I seem to recall my 92 cutlass being the same way, as well as my parents old 97 Lumina....so I just assumed they all worked the same way.

? how short are you?.....

OK, I've been racking my brain trying to think of how that could be the case since auto-dimming and (if applicable) compass/temp displays run off the same positive wire on all Gentex mirrors (see the wiring diagram I posted a few replies ago). But I just remembered something I keep forgetting about these mirrors until I bench test them. Yes, it follows the same wiring pinouts as all other 7-pin mirrors, BUT...unlike any other mirror, when I connect pin 1 (power to auto dimming, and if applicable, compass/mirror display), and pin 2 (ground), the mirror won't power on at all. Neither the auto-dimming NOR the display will work until I connect the map lights constant power wire to power, so there's definitely something different about the internal circuitry of these particular mirrors, and that applies to both with and without compass (just tested the without compass mirror like the one pwmin just got, and it does the same thing; auto-dimming doesn't work until the map lights constant power wire is powered). So this doesn't only impact the VFD, as the wire that powers on the VFD and the auto-dimming are the same. This just led me to test the "fully loaded" mirror above, which also has LED map lights, because I couldn't remember off the top of my head if it did the same thing. It did. Connecting power to the auto-dimming/display wire and ground (the equivalent to just pins 1 and 2 in the 7 pin mirrors) didn't do anything. I had to connect the constant power wire for the map lights in order for them to kick on. Connecting the HomeLink power and ground allowed the HomeLink to work, though. I'm guessing this holds true for any other map lights auto-dimming mirror, which is really a shame. These could be useful in a LOT of cars, but the need for a BCM with battery rundown protection feature eliminates them as an option for many older cars, especially if they're not a daily driver. Sucks.

Absolutely, me too. Unfortunately my car was given the 01-03 one, so I’m almost positive they’re swappable, and because of that this Daytona had a decent one, so I grabbed it, and I can’t wait to put it on

Kr gauge would be neat, I already have real boost gauge but yeah a kr monitor would be real neat. Also cool thank you for looking, really appreciate it, I’ll be digging into that tomorrow, just gotta see if a pin on the inside will lead to that or if I have to run one all the way from the pcm, either way, I’ll be adding it and my 97-2000 style steering wheel tomorrow

I believe it’s just a ground and and a wire to pin(23? I think) to the pcm, enable it in hptuners and it’ll work

I recall @GnatGoSplat commenting that on the specific mirrors from the Intrigue, the constant power for the map lights kept the VFD grid powered on, and visible in the dark, and that it was the cause of the drain when running without a BCM. I also seem to recall there being a fix where the grid was either disconnected, or possibly rewired internally to run off the switched power feed instead. If I had to guess, the constant power actually powers the entire mirror, with the switched powers used moreso as controls to turn on and off the courtesy lights and the mirror/compass. If the grid on the compass display was the main draw on the intrigue mirror, the lack of it on the Sebring mirror might mean there is much less of a draw, even if the circuitry is otherwise identical.

If I understood correctly, the battery drain issue with the Intrigue version was due to the heater grid in the compass VFD being powered by the always on power lead for the map lights...which was ultimately controlled by the BCM in its original application. Since your mirror doesn't have a compass, you might not experience the same drain issue.

The 1995 factory manual said to use silicone grease (GM 12345579 or equivalent) on weather-stripping. If you have tried something other than silicone grease, how is it working for you? An older post mentioned Gummi Pflege instead of silicone grease. I am getting ready to do maintenance on my convertible top, and was just going to use silicone grease again, but am interested in hearing what products people are currently using.

No factory anti-theft of any kind in these. My guess is if you have an aftermarket alarm/anti theft that is where I would start

So, Wednesday marked seven years to the day that I took delivery of my '95 Cutlass Supreme convertible, which also means the registration is due for renewal. When I took it in for that today, I was informed that since the car is now 30 years old, the state of North Carolina considers it to be "vintage vehicle," and such it no longer requires an annual state safety inspection. Fine by me, that's a few dollars I didn't have to spend today. I also believe the Antique Automobile Club of America would consider it an antique.

Well, from where I stand I would probably look for a 3400 LA1 shortblock, plunk the T-code heads & intake down onto it, & install a custom 3400 T-code engine into the car. I personally wouldn't waste my money on just a T code 3.1

With his Black car, I've only seen 4 with Gray interior. One of the 4 was a red car. This is 1 of the 4 gray interior cars. It was about an hour South of me at a private yard. It still might be there. Makes me incredibly sad.