Vegeta Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 I dont know what you mean by hold first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Wow those gears are BAD. 1st to 45. 2nd to like 80 85??? Ouch. 5-speed 1st-35 2nd-60 3rd-95 4th-130 Well when Aaron drag races his car you hear a meat grinder sound between the shifts!! I'm just kidding Aaron!! Don't get your manties in a wad!! Maybe idBeast still has the video of our racing Aaron and you can hear your intake very clear in that! Along with the grinding sound! Common I ground the 2-3 ONCE. Ah gimme some slack, it happens to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 I dont know what you mean by hold first. He want's to be able to stick the gear selector in "1" and have it HOLD 1st gear.............in other words, ELIMINATE the automatic upshift and just pull to the rev limiter. I would also see if you can do the same thing for "2".................have it start out in 2nd gear (for winter/slick roads), and just hold 2nd (and ONLY second...........no upshifting or downshifting). Then leave "3" as gears 1-3 (essentially "D" without 4th gear) with whatever shift logic you want and "D" be gears 1-4 with the same setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Wow those gears are BAD. 1st to 45. 2nd to like 80 85??? Ouch. 5-speed 1st-35 2nd-60 3rd-95 4th-130 Hmmm..............MY 284 trannied LQ1 held 1st to an indicated 38mph, 2nd to 62mph, 3rd to 94mph and 4th to the 121-122mph governor at 6600rpm, with 5th being at 4250-4300rpm at the same speed. Obviously, speedometers caren't always accurate though.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 yah that sounds about right. Becuz I was just running through each gear, and the car gets through them pretty quick, so it's hard to really look and examine, it was more an estimate. That is where mine did hit the limiter too, but without the limiter, 4th will go to about 130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Well, i dont have the ability to change the shift logic, only what RPM to shift at and so on. There is a performance shift option but I dunno what that involves. I also dont have a car to test with so yeah...not gonna get much done that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Well, i dont have the ability to change the shift logic, only what RPM to shift at and so on. There is a performance shift option but I dunno what that involves. I also dont have a car to test with so yeah...not gonna get much done that way. If you HAD a car to test on, do you at all think it'd be possible to make 1st and 2nd gears be "manual" in nature? That'd be a great option for autocrossers to have to hold a gear while cornering (and not having it upshift as you lift prior to corner entry and then have to kick back down again as you exit the corner..........wasting time). Not to mention, it'd allow people to keep stock to near stock shiftpoints for tranny longevity, but stil be able to manually hold the gears to the optimum shiftpoints for racing etc........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Something I just thought of......... You DO allow for a more agressive kickdown schedule correct? And you CAN set shiftpoints......... Why not set the 1-2 shift (in "1") just past redline (so you hit the rev limiter instead of upshifting, thus making it fully manual in that aspect). Then set the 1-2 upshift (in "2") at 0mph, and the 2-1 downshift at 0mph............thus netting a 2nd gear start, and a gear hold all the way through 2nd gear. Would that work, and can the PCM even be set up like that (without having a fit)? It might just be a way to make the car have a manual setup for "1" and "2". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 I think ill let someone else worry about that kind of setup. I dont feel comfortable selling chips that will destroy something. If you want a fully manual setup, get a manual trans or bother brian about the manual shift box he was working on for the trans. I dont mind changing the shiftpoints, or even the downshift points if someone has a car for testing or knows exactly what they want. Hell, ill even show you all the stock shift logic tables if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 I'd at least look into setting 1st gear up to be held (to the rev limiter)...........hell, GM already does that for the 4T40 and 45-E tranny's (you CAN maually hold 1st in nerwer N Body's). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 The stock 91-93 DOHC ECM can't differentiate between (shifter) 2 and 3. It can tell if its in 1 or 4 though. There is probably a way to force it to do something in non OD, but it would apply for 3 as well. There is so much crap that overlaps each other and so many shift tables that I just swapped to a 5spd The 91-93 DOHC chip does have an option for a second set of shift tables, stock it is set up as a 2nd gear start although I don't think a single 91-93 actually had the switch wired up to use this feature. You might be able to force a gear and let the hydraulics tied to the shifter do the work, if it would even work that way. Any way you do it it is really hard on the transmission. For the manual shift box thing, i still got all the stuff laying around. If someone likes electronics and PIC micro's then your more then welcome to it. It was working fairly well, but there were issues with the flyback from the solonoids locking up and resetting the PIC. Anyway, it was fun/different to drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 The stock 91-93 DOHC ECM can't differentiate between (shifter) 2 and 3. It can tell if its in 1 or 4 though. Are you sure that is correct? Because *I* have driven a few 60-E's that CAN differentiate between 2 and 3 (every 60-E that I've driven will hit the rev limiter in "2" or "L" or whatever they have for that position.............but NOT between 1 and 2 (NONE have ever been able to rev limit "1"). Maybe you had a little typo there So.............it seems that we are back to being stuck with picking a comprimise shiftpoint for the 1-2 shift (6700-6800rpm seems to be a reasonable comprimise between tranny life and performance), and then setting the rev limiter high enough to make use of manually holding 2nd and 3rd gears (using "2" and "3"). I guess if I had NO option for manual control, I'd set the shiftpoints at the following rpm: 1-2 6700-6800rpm (~47-48mph) 2-3 6200-6250rpm (~82-83mph) 3-4 6000rpm (~125mph) Rev limiter 7000rpm (for holding 2nd gear in the 1/4 ) That way I could still get a pretty good 1-2 shift (near optimal), and have the option of holding 2nd to it's optimal 6700rpm shift (and 3rd as high as the car will pull it). That seems a decent compromise between performance and a healthy trans........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 I will take brians word for it, considering he knows the execution code and I dont and you dont either. THe 91-93 3.4 DOHC has a different 4T60-E wiring setup so it doesnt surprise me that it doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground. Im gonna send a waiver first for this one...no way is it gonna like 47 in first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93GTP Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 FWIW, I can hold first until I hit the rev limiter. And Brian, I have the 2nd gear start feature. I have used it all of 3-4 times over the past year. That was a really worthwhile feature.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 I will take brians word for it, considering he knows the execution code and I dont and you dont either. THe 91-93 3.4 DOHC has a different 4T60-E wiring setup so it doesnt surprise me that it doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground. Im gonna send a waiver first for this one...no way is it gonna like 47 in first. It wouldn't surprise me either if the 60-E is that fucked up........but, I still wonder about the "2" and "3" differentiation...........because otherwise, how are you going to hold 2nd gear to the rev limit (which you CAN do)? As for the 47mph 1-2 shift, stock IS 44mph correct (or is it 43)? I would assume since the trans is RATED for 6500rpm (45-46mph), it could handle ~2mph more and still have a long service life. What are your experiences with failures due to high rpm shifting? Which ones are verified, and which ones were already borderline tranny's? I just want to come up with the best comprimise between performance and tranny longevity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 I will take brians word for it, considering he knows the execution code and I dont and you dont either. THe 91-93 3.4 DOHC has a different 4T60-E wiring setup so it doesnt surprise me that it doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground. Im gonna send a waiver first for this one...no way is it gonna like 47 in first. It wouldn't surprise me either if the 60-E is that fucked up........but, I still wonder about the "2" and "3" differentiation...........because otherwise, how are you going to hold 2nd gear to the rev limit (which you CAN do)? As for the 47mph 1-2 shift, stock IS 44mph correct (or is it 43)? I would assume since the trans is RATED for 6500rpm (45-46mph), it could handle ~2mph more and still have a long service life. What are your experiences with failures due to high rpm shifting? Which ones are verified, and which ones were already borderline tranny's? I just want to come up with the best comprimise between performance and tranny longevity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Another thing.......... *IF* I am correct about what gears the PCM can differentiate between, you COULD set the 1-2 shift in "1" and "2" (since the PCM see's them as the same) at 6800-7000rpm (for max dragstrip performance), and then set the 1-2 shift in "3" and "D" at 6500rpm (the tranny's limit). This would keep the trans alive on a day to day basis, while allowing you to stick it in one of the lower positions for the dragstrip (or whatever). Make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 I realize the 5-speeds are different, they shift into a higher rpm in the next gear, but: Why? Stock, the motor falls flat on its face after 6500. The chip helped a lot, but with all the mods I have, it is still faster for me to shift out of 3rd at 6500. So unless you all have a freak, or the 13* changed it, I think it would be faster just to shift out at around 6500, unless that puts you too low into the next gear, like below 4,000. Am I thinking correctly here? Our do you all just want to have the guy you're racing hear this thing at redline? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandPrix34 Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 well I am in the process of sending the chip back with the MPH shiftpoints you mentioned BIGBULS. I understand what I am asking for and IN NO WAY hold ANYONE accountable for my transmission going transvestite on me should anything NOT work out. You can have my word I will be responsible for my own actions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 I realize the 5-speeds are different, they shift into a higher rpm in the next gear, but: Why? Stock, the motor falls flat on its face after 6500. The chip helped a lot, but with all the mods I have, it is still faster for me to shift out of 3rd at 6500. So unless you all have a freak, or the 13* changed it, I think it would be faster just to shift out at around 6500, unless that puts you too low into the next gear, like below 4,000. Am I thinking correctly here? Our do you all just want to have the guy you're racing hear this thing at redline? You saw the dyno chart I posted earlier and my explanation of what shiftpoints are ideal correct? THAT is why I am saying 7K for the 1-2 shift on a 60-E is optimal (performance-wise).............along with 6700rpm for 2-3 and ~6500rpm for 3-4. You have to remember that the gear spacing on the 60-E is a LOT wider than the 284.............even with the artificial rpm bump due to the slow torque convertor lockup, you STILL have to rev higher than the manuals do. FYI......... I now have 3 different dyno charts of stock LQ1 manuals (which tend to peak a couple hundred rpm lower than the auto's for some reason [higher compression maybe?].........~5200-5400 vs 5500-5700 for the autos) saved on my hard drive, and all are close enough that the following shiftpoints are close to ideal for a stock LQ1 manual: 1-2 6450rpm 2-3 6500rpm 3-4 6100rpm 4-5 6500rpm (or just hold it until you hit the governor at ~122mph/6600rpm) Obviously mods like a chip and the FFP UDP seems to help out the top end more (raising the shifts a little), but they are good starting points. *I* used to shift my LQ1/284 at 6300 for 1-2 and 2-3 and 6K for 3-4 (and held 4th to the governor)...............so it seems the butt dyno was *fairly* close..............but still not spot on. It just goes to show that what you FEEL can sometimes be a little missleading. And the LQ1 DOES sound pretty good at redline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 The 91-93 DOHC 4t60e is a different beast. Pretty much all other applications of the 60e have a tranny range switch which lets the PCM know the exact position of the shifter, the DOHC does not. It has a P/N switch, 1st switch, and 4th switch. Thing with the 60e is that its a mix of electronic and mechanical control. THe shift solonoids can override what the shifter commands and the shifter hydraulic valving can override the the shift solonoids. Take a look at the hydraulic charts and you'll understand. That being said, the ECM can tell when the shifter is in P/N or reverse by the switch on the shift linkage. In the forward gears it can tell if its in 1st, 4th, or neither by hydraulic pressure switches on the pump body. The code itself is a complete mess, there are multiple variables that do the same thing so its difficult to find the right one. The stuff is so piecemeal that you can actually see how it is based off of code that was written in the mid 80's. The varying shift points are a combo of shifter/electronics fighting for control and honestly its a mess. About the only thing different between the shifter in various gears and varoius gears in OD is the engine braking sprawls are engaged by the shifter not the electronics. One alternative to the microcontroler solution is to wire a 4-7 BCD CMOS chip and appropriate MOSFETS up to a tranny range switch that would be taken from any other 60e app and wired up to the DOHC. This will tie the 2 shift solonoids directly to the shifter position. You just have to hunt through the tech sheets and figure out which chanels to hook up to the switch and solonoids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 So how does the PCM allow the car to rev limit 2nd gear then (and hold 3rd past it's programmed [in "D"] ~5200rpm shiftpoint)? ???? I just wonder if it'd be possible to get the car to shift at ALL differently in the different selector positions (as in one set of shiftpoints for "1" or "2" and another for "3" or "D"). THAT would be ideal (one set of shifts for the strip, and another for the street) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 So how does the PCM allow the car to rev limit 2nd gear then (and hold 3rd past it's programmed [in "D"] ~5200rpm shiftpoint)? Cause it is not triggering the 1st or 4th gear switch, so the shifter must be in 2 or 3 and it uses a different shift table. It knows that when the shifter is in the not 1 or 4 status that it can command up to 3rd gear, I'm not sure but I think the hydraulics prevent the 2-3 upshift in position 2. Pull out the wiring schematics, there is no possible way for the 91-93 DOHC to differentiate between 2 and 3. Honestly I would re-do the 2nd gear start shift tables (exact duplicate of normal shift tables stock, except for 2-1 downshift), put the shifter in OD, and let the car do its own shifting. You can program the shift tables so that you don't have to constantly second guess the PCM... Downshift threasholds ultra low, upshift threasholds really high; it would give the effect of the tranny wanting to stay in whatever gear it is currently in till you force it to do otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 The computer knows but the trans doesnt. The computer knows what gear it is in because it knows the RPM and MPH. Its like having a bigbuls in every computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 Man that's a clusterfuck............... So.......let me see if I have this straight....... In "1" the PCM KNOWS it's in 1st gear and upshifts to 2nd automatically to protect the trans and engine (and then rev limits 2nd?) What about part throttle? Does the tranny attempt hold the gear then, or does it just upshift at lower throttle angles (as in "D")? And does the upshift speed HAVE to be the same as the WOT upshift in "D" (and other gears)? In "2" the trans starts off in 1st gear, shifts to 2nd at the specified shiftpoint (same shift as in "D", or same as in "1"?) and then rev limits 2nd due to the hydrolics offering NO way to upshift to 3rd (even though the PCM probably wants to). Does it again try to hold the gears at part throttle or just act the same as "D" with 2 less gears? In "3" the trans starts in 1st, goes to 2nd at the specified shiftpoint, goes to 3rd at the specified shiftpoint and then rev limits 3rd now due to the PCM locking out 4th gear (since it knows it isn't in 1st or 4th.........or is there ANOTHER hydrolic limiter here?). This is essentially "D" with no 4th gear right? No atttempts at part throttle gear holding correct? In "D" the trans shifts 1-4 normally AT the specified points (and now KNOWS it can go all the way to 4th). So...........basically, ALL shiftpoints (in ANY selector position) are based off of a "master" set of shift tables (yes?).............BUT............you CAN manually hold 2nd and 3rd gears (to the rev limiter) because the HYDROLICS limit the upshift. Correct? Or CAN you at least fool around with things in "1" and make at least THAT position different than "D"? Anyway................as of right now it appears to come down to: a) A custom program where you monkey with the kickdown speeds, upshift speeds and 2nd gear start capability to attempt SOME form of manual control. OR Set the 1-2 shift as high as you think your tranny can handle it, and then put 2-3 and 3-4 wherever you want............because you can always hold those two manually (which is what I told GrandPrix34 to do). I think option B will work pretty well for most people............ Man this tranny is goofy as shit (and I know the 65-E is almost as bad) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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