RobertISaar Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 actually, here is a great determining factor: cut the wires one at a time, each time taking a multimeter in DC amperage mode, see what gets pushed through the circuit, that will let you know what to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Cool... that makes sense and generally confirms my suspicions. I will see what I can do to measure whats being pushed through those curcuits before I start doing any wiring... if I somehow fail at that I will play it safe and use the 22 gauge for the photo jack and 18 gauge for the switch. For some reason there is not a good source of wire anywhere local to me... none of the hardware type stores in my town have anything close to what I need for this project. They can only help me wire a house or whatever. So I gotta plan ahead a bit. And yeah, that diagram has a brain meltingly horrible color scheme... I should have changed it up before I posted it. Maybe I still will for posterity's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 my local hardware store's smallest wire is 18 guage.... i usually have to go to radioshack for 22 guage(in 75 foot spools), or order it online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) Attempt 2 to get a solid motor mount I can put on the TGP. This time I gota DEA-A2660 solid motor mount. Recieved it in the mail today. On the one hand, it's actually a solid mount. Yay! What a good start! On the other hand, the lower studs are all wrong... Booooo! What kind of crap is that? What car is *this* mount actually for? However, I remember there were 2 random holes in the bottom of the motor mount cup... perhaps this solid motor mount was designed to fit through those holes? Or am I truly 0 for 2 on actually getting the mount I ordered? I have not actually tried to install the mount yet, have not quite got the motivation right now to try to install something that might completely not fit. Ugh. Here are pics, one of the side and one of the bottom. I wish I could remember if the holes in the mount cup were offset like the studs are on this mount. Edited August 24, 2012 by Penglii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted To Boost Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Changed the spark plugs and finally did the condenser fin delete mod for better airflow through the intercooler.Definitely time for another datalogging joyride after dinner tonight. I have gotten way better at changing the rear 3 spark plugs, but they are still totally a pain in the ass. Spark plugs all looked pretty good, albiet totally black from running pig rich while getting the tune dialed in. Doing the condenser fin delete was way easy, especially with the coolant bottle relocated and most of the other AC components gone. I bent the crap out of a few of the condenser tubes, but it does not matter because this car will never have AC again anyway. LOL Why don't you just remove the condenser then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Why don't you just remove the condenser then? I plan on doing that eventually, but at the time it seemed easier to just pull out the fins then to mess around with the radtator in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 considering the bigger hairdryer...... you want want to take a serious look at the intercooler. i get the feeling that even for the little T25 it's undersized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 considering the bigger hairdryer...... you want want to take a serious look at the intercooler. i get the feeling that even for the little T25 it's undersized. Once Adam gets my tune dialed in, I will be taking a closer look at my IAT numbers to see if the intercooler is doing a sufficient job or not. Although from what I've seen Garrett Powered mention in my "turbo blanket or heat shield" thread, after a few mods to increase airflow (many of which I have already done) the stock intercooler is more than enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 after some google pics searching, it doesn't appear to be as small as i remember.... but tracking the cooling efficiency and pressure drop would answer that question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 How does one monitor and track the cooling efficiency and pressure drop? I assume it's related to the IAT, the MAP, and the estimated airflow in grams/second? Although I'm not even sure how the airflow is calculated since the TGP does not have a MAF. I know tunerpro displays it, but how does it know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Although I'm not even sure how the airflow is calculated since the TGP does not have a MAF. I know tunerpro displays it, but how does it know? a fudged version of the speed-density calculation. tracking IC pressure drop would require two MAP sensors(or pressure guages, if doing it manually) tracking IC efficiency would require two IAT sensor(one immediately in front of the IC, one immediately after) interestingly enough, with a stock calibration and no added inputs, the 1227727 ECM actually has enough inputs to do this and output all of it to the datastream... in fact, there are enough MAT inputs available to calculate compressor efficiency as well.... GM may or may not have planned that in the design of it, but even if it didn't, it would still be possible to add in, the 7727 and variants have a LOT of A/D inputs for their era. calculating pressure drop is pretty self-explanitory, just subtract the pressure after the IC from the pressure before the IC. everyone has their own theories, but if i saw more than 1.5PSI, i'd look for a less restrictive IC. ideally, do this at max boost pressure and airflow, since that's where the largest effect will be seen. calculating efficiencies is a little more complicated since you have to convert temperatures into absolute temperatures(Kelvin or Rankor), but still not difficult. usually, you'll have to trade off efficiency for pressure drop, but certain designs can overcome this. ICs with a LOT of very short airflow paths allow for a large amount of flow to overcome pressure drop, but the amount/rate of air going through it will determine if it's necessary to go bigger or if it would be sufficient. Maximum Boost(if you have it, either paperback or..... electronically) does go into some detail about pretty much all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Wow Rob, that is some interesting information! I'll definitely have to read Maximum Boost sometime. Not sure if I think it matters enough to me to add the extra sensors and actually measure all that, this is a street driven car after all, but who knows... often it's fun to do stuff just to do stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Once Adam gets my tune dialed in, I will be taking a closer look at my IAT numbers to see if the intercooler is doing a sufficient job or not.Although from what I've seen Garrett Powered mention in my "turbo blanket or heat shield" thread, after a few mods to increase airflow (many of which I have already done) the stock intercooler is more than enough. looking at the MAT numbers is one way of telling if its helping enough. especially if you got one before and after. bigger more efficient turbo means it works less (less heat) to deliver the same boost PSI meaning it would be less of an issue. even then it would be hard to draw a conclusion based on the data you collect without all else equal.. if you want a front intercooler you will do it. if you want a side mount one, then you will keep it. I... will be keeping the bad ass Blackstone hand numbered one I know the pikes peak race car was used to test it back in 88. it was the test bed for the TGP's pre production and loaded with all the sensors for that stuff. so the research has been already done for us by a team of engineers funded with millions of dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 true, street(or mostly street) driven cars, it would probably be overkill. i tend to think long-term and worst-case scenarios.... be interesting to generate your own turbo compressor maps though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 yeah I think it that would be cool, also they could always be replaced by something more efficient if it had no more pressure drop which ours do not suffer from at all I guess. but turbos these days are so efficient that they don't even need an intercooler. you could possibly benefit more with just a pipe from the turbo-to a bigger bore throttle body. I understand your point is that it can be illustrated with proof scientifically better than guessing on what parts to buy. which is kind of the point I was trying to make too. also it may prove whether or not ANY intercooler is needed at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 will be keeping the bad ass Blackstone hand numbered one I totally agree with this logic, the hand numbered blackstone intercooler is badass. I know the pikes peak race car was used to test it back in 88. it was the test bed for the TGP's pre production and loaded with all the sensors for that stuff. so the research has been already done for us by a team of engineers funded with millions of dollars. This makes a lot of sense too, they did not really just slap some parts together and hope for the beest, there was some real engineering that went on with the TGP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I found this post from 2004 that talks about the TGP intercooler. It does not provide any data... but anecdotal evidence is almost data, right? http://www.w-body.com/showthread.php/10016-Intercooling-Gods?p=103775&viewfull=1#post103775 Have you looked at the Gerrett site. It has a good chart for intercooler sizing and hp levels. I think just by looking at the TGP intercooler...it could flow anywhere from 280-300hp depending on boost presure ratio. These TGP intercooler, Turbo dodge , and the ford Turbo Coupe intercoolers are the best. They have a better more effective way of cooling air. Don't even bother with Ford Probe/MX-6 intercoolers. They flow well...but don't chill for jack. I had a '88 Turbo Mazda MX-6 GT. THat intercooler was as good as a straight pipe. It be better if it had more fins or longer. I would try a large 740 volvo intercooler. Kinda looks like a radiator core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 just like with the merkurs and cosworth how they didn't always use intercoolers but they had big old ball bearing turbos. only it was GM and Mclaren and they had a pretty good track record too. turbocharged racing was huge back then so the competition was pretty fierce. and they were pouring tons of money into researching that type of stuff. obviously the next step they took was the water cooled IC units in the sy/ty's before turbocharging fell off the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 got me thinking that if you could add tables for a chip controlled water cooled IC with on off set points based on MAT temperature readings. then you could pump cold water through it automatically kind of like how the rad fans operate but MAT based. it could mount where the stock cooler is only it might be smaller now and you also still have fan 2 blowing on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) TGP code with a 7727 has pin A18 and A19 unused, correct? because those are both usable outputs for something like that. A18 is PWM capable, but A19 is not, so either could be used with normal relays, but A18 could also be used with a solid state relay(or FETs) if you wanted to make it variable speed. EDIT: A19 and C13.... C13 being PWM. Edited August 26, 2012 by RobertISaar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=216&products_id=1034&osCsid=000913c02231184260742cff942ff379 looking at the kit, it has a radiator and fan. maybe the FAN 2 settings could be programmed with another coolant temp sender going to the new radiator. thing is I don't know how hot the thing would actually get. probably not that hot unless its summer. you might have to drain it during winter months because I guess with that pump you can not use coolant. it might end up being too much of a pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Made a lot of progress on adding AUX IN to my cassette deck today. Aside from some PITA soldering, it has been quite easy. Made my holes in the faceplate for the jack and the switch, it's gonna look super nice and clean when I'm done. Also got the jack wired in. When I took the deck apart I noticed that the internal wiring harness I need to modify is super easy to completely remove from the unit... so that made soldering those wires a piece of cake. Now I just gotta wait until the mailman delivers the slightly heavier wire I need for the switch. Should be here Tuesday. I also tried to examine the tape unit itself. I managed to unstick the insert/eject mechanism, so that is good. I tried to examine the belt, but I cannot find one. As far as I can tell this unit does not use any belts... that does not seem right though. I guess if it works when I plug it all back in on Tuesday or Wednesday, then cool... if not, that's fine too... as long as the AUX IN works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Tried again to examine/replace the belt in the cassette deck... actually found the belt this time. I don't know how it is on other delco cassette units, but the one the TGP's got is really not fun to work on at all! That is as far as I got though... further disassembly to actually service the belt is far beyond my current patience level. Verified that the belt is there, and not just crumbling to dust. Then I put her back together while i still remembered what screws went where. If it's not tight enough... oh well, it's not like I'll ever want to listen to a cassette tape anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 it was fun listening to the Turbo Grand Prix tape when I first got my red car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I bet! I was not lucky enough to get a copy of that tape with my TGP. Do you have any way to convert that tape to MP3 or some other digital format? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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