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Hi Everyone,

 

Yesterday I had the pleasure of driving a new car. With 200km on, you just smell the fragance of a new car. The first thing I noticed was how soft and nice the steering, then the clutch, it was like you were pressing nothing and finally, here comes my surprise, the brakes! I couldn't believe how soft and nice were working. My cutty´s brake aren´t working nothing close to that! I know they have some years on it but I would like to improve them. What can I do to boost my brakes?

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IIRC, your car is a 94. You already have the best braking system the 1G cars got. The only other thing I could think that may improve braking a bit is for you to swap out your front spring assembly for one out of a 97+ Lumina. This allows you to use the last revision of the front rotors. They're an inch bigger or something like that and would use your existing caliper. 

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Why does everyone complain about 1G brakes? I have never had any difficulty with mine. The car stops fine and predictably.

  

IIRC, your car is a 94. You already have the best braking system the 1G cars got. The only other thing I could think that may improve braking a bit is for you to swap out your front spring assembly for one out of a 97+ Lumina. This allows you to use the last revision of the front rotors. They're an inch bigger or something like that and would use your existing caliper.

 

I'll second both of these, although I was under the impression all 96+ got the new front brakes. Also have to agree that all non-powermaster 1st gens I've owned have stopped well and had good pedal feel, including the 93 Lumina I owned which wouldn't have had the bigger booster and 94+ rear calipers. I've noticed a lot of people who complain are delco 6 owners and have a suspicion that many of these people are dealing with units that have come apart internally and do not know it. I just don't know.

 

Assuming yours is ok OP, I would also make sure your rear calipers aren't seizing. Even the 94 ones seize sometimes. As far as upgrades, you could always upgrade pads and rotors and put on stainless steel brake hoses. The hoses would also be a chance to flush and bleed the brake system, which could help.

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I'll second both of these, although I was under the impression all 96+ got the new front brakes. Also have to agree that all non-powermaster 1st gens I've owned have stopped well and had good pedal feel, including the 93 Lumina I owned which wouldn't have had the bigger booster and 94+ rear calipers. I've noticed a lot of people who complain are delco 6 owners and have a suspicion that many of these people are dealing with units that have come apart internally and do not know it. I just don't know.

 

Assuming yours is ok OP, I would also make sure your rear calipers aren't seizing. Even the 94 ones seize sometimes. As far as upgrades, you could always upgrade pads and rotors and put on stainless steel brake hoses. The hoses would also be a chance to flush and bleed the brake system, which could help.

 

Actually we are both wrong, it's supposed to be mid 95. I now remember this because I had this conversation on the forum about the bigger disc swap and how I took a spring setup off a 95 Cutlass for my 94 Cutlass without realizing that they could have been different depending on the manufacture date. I honestly don't know why I say 97, I guess it just seems more secure to get them off a later built Lumina. 

 

Delco6, meaning the ABS module?

 

Also, would you have a link for the stainless steel hoses? I want to do that to my 93 Z (and upgrade to the 94 booster since I have to swap it.)

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Actually we are both wrong, it's supposed to be mid 95. I now remember this because I had this conversation on the forum about the bigger disc swap and how I took a spring setup off a 95 Cutlass for my 94 Cutlass without realizing that they could have been different depending on the manufacture date. I honestly don't know why I say 97, I guess it just seems more secure to get them off a later built Lumina. 

 

Delco6, meaning the ABS module?

 

Also, would you have a link for the stainless steel hoses? I want to do that to my 93 Z (and upgrade to the 94 booster since I have to swap it.)

 

The ABS assembly. The thing on the master cylinder that contains the gears that fall apart and cause poor braking.

 

Stainless hoses:

http://www.vaglinks.com/Docs/Catalogues/Goodridge_brake_full_auto.pdf

 

Looks like your part number is 12236

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Hoses deteriorate, fluid gets contaminated, pads are replaced with parts-store bottom-feeder junk--or the pads/rotors get "glazed", maybe the rubber seals get hard...and then we wonder why new cars have "better" brakes.

 

My experience is that the first-gen booster design is poor, it isn't durable.  Eventually most of the power assist goes away, without exhibiting other signs of failure.  Folks scream about the rear calipers; I haven't had problems with that.

 

I'm fairly certain that I don't have Delco VI ABS on the '92 or the '93.  Here's a quickie article on Delco VI ABS, with a nice photo of some gears:

https://ccs.dogpile.com/ClickHandler.ashx?encp=ld%3d20170128%26app%3d1%26c%3dinfo.dogpl%26s%3dDogpile%26rc%3dinfo.dogpl%26dc%3d%26euip%3d24.220.169.88%26pvaid%3d5c8146abc3f94a788bf3706176d844a2%26dt%3dDesktop%26sid%3d1830193568.2440392505034.1485645575%26vid%3d1830193568.2440392505034.1435542940.882%26fcoi%3d417%26fcop%3dtopnav%26fct.uid%3d71ec0ddef82a4079a4f8674193e15270%26fpid%3d27%26en%3d0WEFU%252fZhSoTF%252fFm%252bpLeuVl4UPZzISdzyg%252baGYj7N8ISb7M1aTnzzgA%253d%253d%26ru%3dhttps%253a%252f%252fwww.motor.com%252fmagazinepdfs%252f062001_04.pdf%26coi%3d1494%26npp%3d1%26p%3d0%26pp%3d0%26mid%3d9%26ep%3d1%26du%3dhttps%253a%252f%252fwww.motor.com%252fmagazinepdfs%252f062001_04.pdf%26hash%3d82E36723EEC9979972366B5817567A4F&ap=2&cop=main-title

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Actually we are both wrong, it's supposed to be mid 95. I now remember this because I had this conversation on the forum about the bigger disc swap and how I took a spring setup off a 95 Cutlass for my 94 Cutlass without realizing that they could have been different depending on the manufacture date. I honestly don't know why I say 97, I guess it just seems more secure to get them off a later built Lumina. 

 

Delco6, meaning the ABS module?

 

Also, would you have a link for the stainless steel hoses? I want to do that to my 93 Z (and upgrade to the 94 booster since I have to swap it.)

96 was the first full year

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+1 on that.......the calipers are too small, the booster is a question mark (the 1st iteration of the design), the master cylinder drilled port orifices, the workings of the proportioning valve all add up to a less than desired effect.

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+1 on that.......the calipers are too small, the booster is a question mark (the 1st iteration of the design), the master cylinder drilled port orifices, the workings of the proportioning valve all add up to a less than desired effect.

Interesting enough, the front calipers were dual piston, that's something that GM actually took away in the 2nd generation. I feel that GM got it right in 94. I've never had issues with the brakes on my 94 Cutlass and it's interesting to know that these cars have brake issues considering that my 2003 N body was known for bad wheel bearings but I dealt with shitty brakes and not a single issue with the wheel bearings.

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More of a reference to the rear calipers on the cars,

 

the piston bore is too small for the amount of force/work that is required from the rear brakes to *more than adequately* do the job.

 

The difference in the bore dia inside the master vs the bore dia of the rear calipers has always been a weak point in the brakes operation. The master bore is 1", the rear caliper bore is 1.3"

 

simple Pascal's law of fluid dynamics...when the bore dia of the piston that is doing the work is too close to the dia of the piston that is supplying the pressure there is no multiplication factor where the supplied pressure can be increased at the piston doing the work.

 

It's no wonder at it that the rear brakes are never *pulling their weight* and the front are doing more than their share of the work.

 

Consider that the rear caliper pistons mounted to a Fiero are larger in dia. (almost 2") than the rear caliper pistons used on the W body cars, the masters used on both car platforms have the same 1" dia bore. That's a 2 to 1 pressure ratio increase for the Fiero's rear brakes that the W body desperately needs.The Fiero brakes are a little better than average, the Fiero is also 700lbs. lighter than the W body.

.

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Interesting enough, the front calipers were dual piston, that's something that GM actually took away in the 2nd generation. I feel that GM got it right in 94. I've never had issues with the brakes on my 94 Cutlass and it's interesting to know that these cars have brake issues considering that my 2003 N body was known for bad wheel bearings but I dealt with shitty brakes and not a single issue with the wheel bearings.

That's something that bothers me about changing my front spindles to second gen, I'm losing the brakes that I like.

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Consider that the rear caliper pistons mounted to a Fiero are larger in dia. (almost 2") than the rear caliper pistons used on the W body cars, the masters used on both car platforms have the same 1" dia bore. That's a 2 to 1 pressure ratio increase for the Fiero's rear brakes that the W body desperately needs.The Fiero brakes are a little better than average, the Fiero is also 700lbs. lighter than the W body.

Probably a safety feature for when your gas pedal gets stuck in WOT and you need to stop, or an anti-burnout measure so fewer trans's go up in smoke under warranty. Likely the latter.

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i need help guys im trying to convert a power master 3 abs system to a non abs its on a 91 gran prix gtp the hydraulic assy went bad i cant find a replacement if you do they are from 850 to 1140 bucks any help i thank you

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i need help guys im trying to convert a power master 3 abs system to a non abs its on a 91 gran prix gtp the hydraulic assy went bad i cant find a replacement if you do they are from 850 to 1140 bucks any help i thank you

 

We were just talking about this in another thread. Not sure if his helps because your car is a bit older but you probably can run the later MC, wait till someone else chimes in on that before you start buying stuff though.

http://www.w-body.com/topic/55569-97-monte-brake-line-schematic/

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i need help guys im trying to convert a power master 3 abs system to a non abs its on a 91 gran prix gtp the hydraulic assy went bad i cant find a replacement if you do they are from 850 to 1140 bucks any help i thank you

 

Instead of threadjacking, why don't you make a post about the issues you're experiencing?  You might get more help that way.

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