Guest TurboSedan Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 my Turbo STE brakes are really bad! i won't even drive the car becuase i'm afraid i'd rearend someone. symptoms: - brake pedal is VERY mushy and goes down pretty far - i have to press the brake pedal hard to stop the car - i can hear the pump cycle with each press of the brake pedal - brake fluid in reservoir appears to be VERY airrated. i don't think it's leaking brake fluid anywhere but how is air entering the system? - Anti-Lock flashes on the cluster - DIC freaks out displying ABS warning and beeps every second (DIC is unplugged because of this) - brake light on dash comes on when the pedal goes down far enough i tried pumping the brake pedal 40 times with the ignition off. that seemed to bring the fluid back up in the master cylinder. i think the brakes felt a little better after i did that, but only for a short time. within 2 miles of driving the Anti-Lock light started flashing again and the DIC started beeping and the brakes felt like crap again. does this sound like an accumulator problem or do i need a new PMIII? i'm very unfamiliar with the PMIII system and don't know where to start. i thought about converting to vacuum brakes but i guess i'd like to keep the TSTE original and i'm sure the brakes would kick ass if they only worked properly. TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuntzie Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 solution... sell me your TSTE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sl3196 Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 solution... sell me your TSTE He just got it dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 sounds like the accumulator, Flashing ABS, horrible pedal feel, accumulator running every pedal press, buy a new one for sure, the http://www.tpsgarage.com has some great info and rescourses on PM3 and parts for it and instructions on installing parts including the accumulator and always bleed the unit after doing any service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Pull the ABS fuse and then check how your brakes feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Pull the ABS fuse and then check how your brakes feel. that wont do anything but make the ABS not work, the accumulator will still run like crazy and there will be shitty performance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dubya Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 Josh a good place to start looking for a leak is at the proportioning valve where the lines split to go to each caliper in the rear. If that is leaking it may cause an aerating problem. If you're pump runs on every pedal press you definetely need to replace the accumulator, which you can get from Prior Manufacturing for around $100. GM is well over $200 last I knew. If it still runs with every pedal press you may have a bad housing in which case start looking for a replacement or start saving for a rebuild. The accumulator doesn't "run like crazy" all it does is provide a nitrogen charge to the system to keep it at extremely high pressures, which may be the reason you have a mushy pedal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 Pull the ABS fuse and then check how your brakes feel. that wont do anything but make the ABS not work, the accumulator will still run like crazy and there will be shitty performance Ahh... well tells you how much I know about the PMIII brake system. I was having a problem with my brake system, ABS light would flash. Pulled the damn fuse, and problems fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 Pull the ABS fuse and then check how your brakes feel. that wont do anything but make the ABS not work, the accumulator will still run like crazy and there will be shitty performance Ahh... well tells you how much I know about the PMIII brake system. I was having a problem with my brake system, ABS light would flash. Pulled the damn fuse, and problems fixed. wierd! mabye it was an actual component of the ABS, like wheel sensor? or selenoid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94CutlassSLCoupe Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 for him it was probably a wheel speed sensor...#1 failure on ABS systems by far...I co-op in the industry...spent enough time researching and working on wheel speed sensors its INSANE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 Pull the ABS fuse and then check how your brakes feel. that wont do anything but make the ABS not work, the accumulator will still run like crazy and there will be shitty performance Ahh... well tells you how much I know about the PMIII brake system. I was having a problem with my brake system, ABS light would flash. Pulled the damn fuse, and problems fixed. wierd! mabye it was an actual component of the ABS, like wheel sensor? Most likely, yes. But.... my pedal feel is much different with the ABS fuse in than when it's out. It's really odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuntzie Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 no honestly now you dont gotta sell me your TSTE.... my brakes did the same thing... my bet is the breakline splitter box (BTW the only thing i neeed for my car to get a safety.) and now the breaks start like i am hitting a wall lol they work perfect ( cost me 250 canadian to get it ship it qand get it installed... so it cant be much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 Josh, I think the Accumulator would be the place to start. I was going to put one on the car, had I kept it. If that didn't fix the problem, I was going to convert it to Vacuum brakes. With that pump motor running ever pedal press, the accumulator is most likely the starting point. I'm sure it is not a wheel speed sensor problem, although I never scanned codes while driving it. The ABS light comes on and flashes when pressing the brakes only. If you shut off the car, and restart, the light doesn't come on until the pedal is pressed several times. I actually drove the car from Goodland, KS to Denver, CO without touching the brakes, and the light never came on. What I'm getting at is: If it was wheel speed sensor, the light would come on within 3 seconds of drving the car, as the ABS computer sees one sensor reading 0 MPH. The only exception would be an intermittent sesor wiring problem, but from my experience with the car, I think it's the accumulator. Good luck, I'm lovin' the GTS already. Finally got all my tools out of the trunk. I'm thinkin about cleanin up the interior, and giving the leather seats a good dose of cleaner and conditioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 The pump running every press/operation sounds like a bad accumulator, but the spongy feel sounds like you have a leak somewhere. Try to look at the back of the housing for any leaks Josh(that's where they fail). When my accumulator was bad on the TGP, the motor would run very frequently(it eventually started running every press, so I quit driving the car until I swapped it out), but the brakes did not have any spongy feel to them. Also check everything everyone else suggested(rear proportioning valve) and you may want to do a full brake bleed on the car to see if that gets rid of your spongy feel(someone might not have bled them properly when they did some brake work in the past). Chris A. has a nice brake bleeding writeup(it's the one I followed after my accumulator swap, and my PMIII is working great again). http://www.tpsgarage.com/TGP/brakes/powermaster.htm#BLEEDING The accumulator from prior is listed in the "common part #'s" thread at the netavalanche board. I can type out the easiest way to replace it(since the prior is larger than the stock accumulator) if you want me to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 I didn't really think the pedal felt spongy, It was hard to push the pedal down. A lot like a car with no power brakes/Assist. Not spongy IMO Looking over the system for leaks would be a good idea, but I didn't see anything out of the norm when I had it up in the air for the fuel pump. When I checked the brake reservoir, it was not low, nor has ever been low the other times I checked it. I think if the master cylinder is leaking, it will bring the rear reservoir down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 I didn't really think the pedal felt spongy, It was hard to push the pedal down. A lot like a car with no power brakes/Assist. Not spongy IMO Looking over the system for leaks would be a good idea, but I didn't see anything out of the norm when I had it up in the air for the fuel pump. When I checked the brake reservoir, it was not low, nor has ever been low the other times I checked it. I think if the master cylinder is leaking, it will bring the rear reservoir down? I just figured by mushy, Josh mean "spongy" as most describe it. The rear of the reservoir would be a little low when it leaks, but some have said their rear housing leaked really slowly(I believe sleepered90tgp mentioned this before). Being that the rear reservoir is aerated, it is possible that a leak is somewhere. Josh, press the pedal slowly but firmly the next time you depressurize the system(instead of mashing it really quick/hard) and see if it looks so aerated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 will do Matt. i'm going to try bleeding the brakes tomarrow. the pedal is very hard to press down, but it does feel spongy IMO. maybe 'spongy' is the wrong word. it's like it doesn't really do anything unless you press pretty far down on the pedal. it's enough to make your leg sore driving it around town. i tried getting them to lock up and the wheels didn't lock up. if i got on the pedal really hard i could hear a really fast 'clicking' noise coming from somewhere under the dash or booster/master cylinder area. i'm pretty sure i need do some work to the rear brakes because the car would nose dive when i slammed on the brakes. hopefully replacing the accumulator isn't too tough. i gotta read up on this stuff tonight. it's probably safe to assume i need an accumulator....what about the master cylinder? do i just look for leaks or is there another way to tell if it's bad? thanks everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 accumulator is the easiest, 1 bolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 yeah, just looked pretty difficult to get to when i was looking at it today. the m/c is freakin huge compared the the Cutty lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 I'll go ahead and type out how I did my accumulator swap. 1. Remove the upper IC pipe and rotate the engine forward. 2. Remove the ABS heat shield(two 10mm bolts holding it on) and completely pull the shield out(I think Chris A's site says it's an interference fit, but it can easily be removed. I had the engine rotated forward and then simply pulled it towards the passenger side of the car a little and maneuvered it out of there.) 3. Remove the throttle body(I left the detent cable attached and sat the throttle body aside on top of the plenum). 4. Loosen the old accumulator(17mm nut), I used a 3/8'' breaker bar with an extension & a swivel to get a good angle on it. Mine was on there pretty damn tight. :shock: Now loosen the accumulator by hand to near the end of the threads and quickly remove it. Maneuver the a larger prior accumulator down into the area where you removed the throttle body(I removed the throttle body in order to not have to bend the fuel lines or force it down in there, it dropped right in with the throttle body gone). Lubricate the o-ring on the prior unit before you hand tigthen it as far as you can get it. Now I took a 1'' wrench from behind the plenum and tightened the accumulator(as people have said in previous threads, you don't have to tighten the shit outta it). 5. Bleed your brakes using the method on Chris A's site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 kick ass thanks Matt! i appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 my Turbo STE brakes are really bad! i won't even drive the car becuase i'm afraid i'd rearend someone. symptoms: - brake pedal is VERY mushy and goes down pretty far - i have to press the brake pedal hard to stop the car - i can hear the pump cycle with each press of the brake pedal - brake fluid in reservoir appears to be VERY airrated. i don't think it's leaking brake fluid anywhere but how is air entering the system? - Anti-Lock flashes on the cluster - DIC freaks out displying ABS warning and beeps every second (DIC is unplugged because of this) - brake light on dash comes on when the pedal goes down far enough i tried pumping the brake pedal 40 times with the ignition off. that seemed to bring the fluid back up in the master cylinder. i think the brakes felt a little better after i did that, but only for a short time. within 2 miles of driving the Anti-Lock light started flashing again and the DIC started beeping and the brakes felt like crap again. does this sound like an accumulator problem or do i need a new PMIII? i'm very unfamiliar with the PMIII system and don't know where to start. i thought about converting to vacuum brakes but i guess i'd like to keep the TSTE original and i'm sure the brakes would kick ass if they only worked properly. TIA Sorry, wish I was not been gone and busy all the time, really wish I could have piped in sooner, hope I still have time, its good news at least All the lights and cycling and mushy pedal are the accumulator, swap it out and bleed for the accum install and all lights should go out, as well the pedal should firm up nice. The aeration is from you pump the brake pedal 30-40 times before taking off the lid, no worries, but I let the bubbles get out of the fluid before I put the cap back on and let the pump motor cycle all this air infused fluid back into the system :!: As for the accum brake bleed, first relieve all the brake pressure by pumping the brake pedal, pull off the cap and once you see the bubbles are gone, then do the accum swap, fast as you can swap the accums to limit how much brake fluid leaks out. You do not need to take off the TB unless you want to, never had to in the many I have swapped, just tilting the motor forward gets all the room you need (and do the plugs while the engine is forward 8) ). Once done top off the reservoir and reinstall the cap/lid. Hop in the car and slam the brake pedal with your foot 5 times, pause then cycle the ignition key to “Onâ€Â, let the pump motor run till it shuts off, then turn the key off, pause then slam the brake pedal again 5 times, doing this jars loose the bubbles you introduced when swapping the accumulators. Cycle the ign, pause and beat the pedal doing this same procedure several times, then the accumulator will be bled and things will be much better!!! Good luck!! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 . You do not need to take off the TB unless you want to, never had to in the many I have swapped, Jeff, have you swapped in one of the larger Prior units? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 . You do not need to take off the TB unless you want to, never had to in the many I have swapped, Jeff, have you swapped in one of the larger Prior units? Yes, don't really like the bolt on the back side, but if I have to cut a wrench (or go buy a stubby ) I will make something work to make it easier. I am guessing you are wondering how it worked for me?.... I think its just because the engines and subframes don't lay the same in every TGP engine bay, case in point is I have seen many TGPs with some having the tranny dip stick tube so smashed up against the firewall you can't get it out without pulling hard on the tube to get the dipstick handle to clear, then others that stick out so far away from the firewall it makes me think someone bent it and these are on some of the ones I have take all the parts out and put them back in so its not a miss-mount that changes these dimensions. Same holds true for the air filters people use, some smash into the intercooler, some clear it fine, there are some other examples but what I am getting at is the cars I have done the accumulator on had enough room even for the bigger balloon size of the Prior, or I just pushed some of those heater hoses out of the way when I went to drop in the new accumulator. Was not trying to make it sound like you were wrong doing it with the TB that way, just thinking about the ones I did that did not require it and hoping the same for TurboSedan but if he finds he cannot clear things, he knows what to take off next Hope that clears up things Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 Was not trying to make it sound like you were wrong doing it with the TB that way, just thinking about the ones I did that did not require it and hoping the same for TurboSedan but if he finds he cannot clear things, he knows what to take off next Hope that clears up things Jeff M Yeah, I didn't take it as you making me sound wrong, I was just curious how your swap went. I actually tried to get my accumulator by the dipstick and whatnot first and I couldn't get it down in there, so I just removed the throttle body and got it back there with ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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