Gearhead43 Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Beware of this SHOP! The following post is for anyone willing to take the time to read what concerns a Turbo Grand Prix Conversion project gone wrong. The main shop involved was Engineered Performance, a supposedly high respected shop located in North Georgia. The GP to be converted is a Show condition 89 base GP that was converted first to an "SE" Model. The swap began after I had purchased a complete salvaged TGP for $500. Engineered Performance [EP] was contacted and given the task of the TGP Conversion. EP was supposed to run a through check of the TGP's engine/ tranny before it was even taken out of the TGP. Ouoted by EP in Email: The TGP has excellent compression. I think the fuel pump might be weak. But, that it of no consequence. I was thinking about what needs to be done... remove your subframe, remove the TGP subframe, reseal the engine, rebuild the transmission (if necessary, I will do a partial disassemble to determine its condition), install the whole mess in your car, hook up ECU, all new belts/hoses, etc. Honestly, you are looking about 3000.00. It's a lot of work and most of it takes a lot of time. The first thing to do is remove the engine from the TGP and reseal it. Pressure wash/paint the frame, clean up the messy wiring (de-flood the harness), rebuild the transmission, get it ready to go in your car. This is the expensive part. I would need 2000.00 up front to do it. Then you'd owe the balance when we finish the installation on your car. Any extras like chip, crossover pipe, turbo upgrade, etc. would be over the cost quoted. The FIRST estimates run by EP: Dave, book time on just R&R w/turbo is 10.8 hours. That's 800.00. We have to do that 1.5 times. That's 1200.00. That does NOT include rebuilding the transmission. The performance transmission rebuild is 1500.00 w/converter (again, IF NEEDED). A limited slip is 500.00 with transmission (75.00 discount). So we are up to 3200.00 with no belts, no hoses, no tune-up or anything. I knocked off 200.00 for the used parts. I only tell you this b/c I have lost my ass too many times in the past on engine swaps. It will take WAYYYY more time than the 16.2 hours. I'll probably spend twice that on it. I price these engine swaps to keep up with other shops (which, btw, there is NO ONE doing domestic engine swaps ANYWHERE but me with the exception of a few Fiero companies) Anyway, if the trans does NOT need a complete rebuild, less than 3000.00. If it does, right at or just over... no chip tuning (ecu tuning is 175.00/hr. on the dyno). $2000 was paid to EP to START the SWAP. First time I was at the shop I told EP to check the turbo that was on it. He said it looked like we are OK with it. Next email I got was: Dave, bad news. I just checked the turbo and it has way too much endplay to use it. You can move the shaft in/out about 1/4". It needs to be rebuilt. Figure about 550.00. I also have a good used rebuilt turbo that has about 7500 miles on it. I'd sell it for 250.00 cash. Let me know which way you want to go. I told EP if the used one was good to use it. Then about a week later: (on the Tranny) IS BURNT TOAST!!!!!!!! Here's a pic. It was NOT rebuilt. If it was, they didn't adjust the t.v. cable properly and burned it up. I do know they changed the valve body b/c it has aftermarket gaskets on it. And it does not have "turbo" on the pump cover. Unless 89 was different than 90... the 90 I built had the "turbo" designation on the pump cover. Anyway, this trans has a 1-2 accumulator, the 90 turbo trans does not. I thought maybe it was a non-original trans, but the VIN stamp on the trans matches the engine (and, presumably, the car). So... I have, in my red 90, a GM service replacement turbo trans, with less than 10K miles, that was bought when you could still buy them. It is no longer available from Goodwrench or AC/Delco. It would cost at least 2000.00 to build this bad trans, 1500.00 labor + parts (I know this b/c I just built one for a 90 and had to replace alot of hard parts and the OD clutches were not as bad as these). I'll sell you the SR turbo trans out of my car for 1250.00 cash. (That includes my labor pulling it of of my car.) Please bear in mind those figure do not include the $3000 - $3100 discussed eariler. Then He decides that the used turbo is not worthed and asked me: I need the 500.00 for the turbo right away. You will be happy to learn that for your money you will be recieving a REBUILT turbo, not used. (I keep your old turbo in exchange.) I am using my turbo guy in NC. He has it this morning and will be sending it back today. We will have it tomorrow in time to finish the car. BUT, I need to pay for it and I don't have the money to do so. I need you to come by and bring cash. Check or credit card will not clear in time for me to pay for the turbo. I was at the shop a few times during the swap, The TGP's engine harness was torn by the assc belt from a seized A/C Compressor. So EP has to resolder some of the wires back together. While I was inspecting the wiring (Which was only crimped together, not soldered) two of the wires come out of the crimp connecters. (Mind you, this is an engine harness!!!) After a bottom line of $3450, EP finally get the swap together 3 months later. They stated the engine was running rough. Traced it to bad plugs.. Now I'm thinking after a swap like this, you would think one of the FIRST items to be replaced would be the PLUGS!!! But no.... Jeff tried leaving the OLD ones in.. When they had to replace the plugs, they CHARGED ME $75 bucks for 6 PLUGS!! ON top of the 3450 for the swap!!! The morning I picked up the GP, it was running ok. Drove it home about 50 miles away. No problem. Parked it in the driveway. Let the car sit for 2 hours then I was going to move it into the garage. White smoke begins to pour out the exhaust. Next day I went over the car to see what needed to be done before showing it again. Cranked it up and the smoke is back. Found out that EP: - Scratched my newly painted F-Brace (Refused to pay for) - Wedged the Flex-a-lite Tranny Cooler between the bumper and the bra. So I could not get the bra off the clean the car. - Left the AC line off the compressor (Says he forgot to TELL me about it) - Only changed upper and lower Radiator Hose. All other OEM hoses where left Org. OEM parts. For those of you who know the TGP, ou know all the rubber hose crap connecting the various plumbing in the engine. - Told me he was going to add the ST Springs since it was going to be easier while doing the swap. Didn't install them. He kpt complaining that he was doing all this extra work.. Wen if facyt he didnt do half of what he was required. Now for the turbo saga: This was a newly rebuilt T-25 put on by EP. Ok? $500 for that. Jeff Ianitello drove it for about 75 miles to check things out... No problem. I picked up the car. drove it home... (approx. 50 miles) So the Turbo had less than 200 miles on it.. I park the car. Come back out 2 hours later and crank it up to move it in the garage. White smoke starts pouring out the rear, turns out to be oil leaking passed the bearing seals on the turbo.. WTF !!! I trailer it BACK to EP. The dammed shop wants money for taking it off again.. WTF!!!! So I TRAILER it back HOME so I can take the turbo off MYSELF to have the Turbo place that rebuilt it take a look to see what happened. I'm thinking , OK, It needs to be rebuilt AGAIN.. FOR FREE it better be!!!!!NO!!! Turbo shop comes back saying "There was a piece of trash in the turbo wedged in the bearing. It most likely came from the oil pump or possibly just come carbon build-up in the oil galleys. it was a hard, crunchy piece of carbon. When the bearing stopped turning, the shaft spun and ruined the housing. It needs a new center section. He will rebuild the turbo at no cost to you, but the new center section will cost you 325.00..." DUHHHHHH ...That's not free ANYMORE DUMBASS!!! What the hell happened to such a THING CALLED a WARRANTY!!!!!! I know Jeff will come back at me saying the engine was shit... Oh yea .. Well EP performed a compression check on this engine before starting the work on it.... 170-175 PSI Compression was verified by EP... I don't call the results shit.... To the Readers. EP is a very dishonest shop. I will no longer recommend this shop for any work for ANYONE. PERIOD. As of March 05, EP still has the Bad turbo off the GP, saying he will not ship it to me unless I paid for shipping ($30 more dollars for a crook) Geeez man... 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sl3196 Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Shitty deal dave. That's the reason you do it yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HokemBokem Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Man you got fucked hard. Without lube too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90TGP Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Lawyer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 hire yourself a lawyer, have the car towed to a dealership for an estimate to fix everything they broke, go in with a list of demands (turbo rebuild, paint fixed, etc etc) and see what they want to do from there. Most places will cave when lawsuits come up and it sounds like you were screwed hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Sounds like they gave it to you sans lube ...shitty deal! I'd definately be back there bitching and trhreaten them with a lawsuit - Jeff L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornerdealy Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Summary. NOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 This is why I learned to work on things myself.. I had a run-around with a shop here when I owned my Lumina. Pissed me off that I paid so much money to have some 'certified' idiot do a halfed-assed job on my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOHC_WBody Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 I emailed them asking about the same swap in the Gutlass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 I emailed them asking about the same swap in the Gutlass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 lawyer. Pics would also be nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead43 Posted March 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Pics are coming once I get the fucking POS back together..... Waiting on another rebuilt turbo to come in from Cheapturbo.com..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 I'd have a jewish lawyer all over them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead43 Posted March 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 I emailed them asking about the same swap in the Gutlass. Geez.. I would love to read that email.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Honestly......I don't see anything wrong with what happened. I'd say EP did the right things for the most part........shaddy wiring and not installing the ST springs (did you pay him to do so?)........he WAS honest though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 lawyer. Pics would also be nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Is that the convertible STB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOHC_WBody Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 I emailed them asking about the same swap in the Gutlass. Geez.. I would love to read that email.. I'll post it if I get anything back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilde108 Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 That is one raw deal. Sorry to hear about your luck. I would think about getting a lawyer but that would just be more money and more of a pain in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead43 Posted March 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Honestly......I don't see anything wrong with what happened. I'd say EP did the right things for the most part........shaddy wiring and not installing the ST springs (did you pay him to do so?)........he WAS honest though. You sound like a shady bussiness man yourself.. That's fine.. You can let him do your work and let EP rip up your ass.. It's your money.. I don't really care. You go ahead, pay $500 to get a Turbo rebuilt that will only last you long enough to hopeful get you home in one piece once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 It's not like you didn't call it on yourself though, Dave. I told you myself before you even got it done that it was a shitty deal to begin with. This could have easily been a project for GACGP to handle (minus the transmission rebuild), but you continued to insist that EP was great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Is that the convertible STB? Nope, it's not. It looks like the $10 one you can buy directly from GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 You sound like a shady bussiness man yourself.. Is that an attack? That's fine.. You can let him do your work and let EP rip up your ass.. It's your money.. I do my own work. That way, when something does fail, I can only blame myself.....not someone else. I don't really care. Then why go through the work of posting? You go ahead, pay $500 to get a Turbo rebuilt that will only last you long enough to hopeful get you home in one piece once. The turbo rebuild is a problem with the shop that rebuilt the turbo....not EP. Also...........it could it be a possiblity....I know its rare these days.......but maybe EP was telling the truth? What EP said happened (peice of carbon blocking oil passage) and the problem that happened (smokey) is exactly what would happen. How is this anyones (turbo rebuilder, EP, or customer) fault? Its not(therefore, voding any warranty).....but the customer is the one that gets it in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead43 Posted March 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 He was Honest?.. Hahahah Right... I'm not the only one dude.. This is from a ClubGP member also in GA.. SLOPOKE on ClubGP writes: "OMG you do not even want to get me started on this FU(KING shop. Dave is correct, he is a crook. He did an engine swap for me before I had my new house and gararge (to do my own) I was told that I was getting a used 2000 gtp motor with little miles on it. Come to find out it was a 98 regal motor with god know how many miles on it. He lied to me from start to finish and the only way i found out was I HELPED HIM INSTALL THE DAMN THING AT MY $$$. The oil sending unit gave it away. It was the wrong one (2 wire) which gave away it was not a gtp motor and led to the truth. I too was charged for shit that never went in. 75$ for synthetic etc. I was there when he poured in regular shit oil etc. List is WAY to long to get into. The guys shop is impressive don't let that fool you, he has a dynojet, lots of cars etc however you are dealing with a gypsy BUYER BEWARE.... " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOHC_WBody Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 ----- Original Message ----- From: W. Michael Blevins To: tech@engineered.net Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 6:21 PM Subject: Shopping for a shop to do a Getrag 282/TGP swap I've got a 1990 Olds Cutlass Supreme that I'd like to do the swap mentioned in the subject. Could you quote me a price to do the swap if ... A: I bring you a wrecked/salvage TGP B: I let you source the parts for the swap. And a couple more Q's. I've hard that the X-over on the TGP leaks eventually...Does your shop do any custom fab wor such as building a new x-over from scratch? Could a larger turbo flange be attached to the new x-over? -W. Michael Blevins ----- Original Message ----- From: Engineered Performance To: W. Michael Blevins Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: Re: Shopping for a shop to do a Getrag 282/TGP swap Thanks for the inquiry. You have come to the right place! I actually just parted out a 90 TGP. I have almost the whole car sitting on the floor of my shop. I have everything needed to convert any 88-93 W-body to the McLaren turbo. As for the Getrag swap, 5-speed parts for the W-body are getting hard to find. I'm sure I can come up with the parts, but it will definately take some time. Expect to be without the car for 4-6 weeks and to part with anywhere from 5000.00-7000.00. Turbo upgrades, clutch upgrades, limited slip, exhaust system upgrades, custom ecm tuning, etc, will add to the cost. Please call for an apointment to come by and consult with me. I will spend one hour with you going over parts and labor, sourcing parts, and figuring a timeline for the job. The cost for the consultaion is 75.00. As the ONLY GM fwd specialty shop in Atlanta, and possibly the entire southeast, you have selected the best. I look forward to talking with you about this project. Thanks. Jeff Ianitello Engineered Performance 1784 Corn Rd. Suite D Smyrna, GA. 30080 770-434-0051 http://www.engineered.net ----- Original Message ----- From: W. Michael Blevins To: Engineered Performance Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Shopping for a shop to do a Getrag 282/TGP swap Jeff, I appreciate the detailed response, but I have just a couple more questions. For that kind of cash outlay, wouldn't an L67 swap just be more cost effective? I've done a bit of research into that swap and found that it's a bit more "wiring intensive", but you've got the added displacement as well as a bit more of an aftermarket for the supercharged motor....well a LOT more if you count the crap that SLP's making. Regarding the crossover pipe, I'd like a bit more information on what you're going to do concerning the leakage issues that the stock pipes have with the cheap flex bellows connecting the ends of it to the turbo manifold section. Once again, I appreciate your response and look forward to doing business with you. -W. Michael Blevins An L67 swap is not any more difficult, just that the end result will always be more power with a turbo. The stock L67 puts down around 195-200whp. A turbo 3.1 with an upgraded turbo will easily make 250-275whp on 15psi. I can modify the crossover pipe so it will never leak. Jeff Ianitello Engineered Performance 1784 Corn Rd. Suite D Smyrna, GA. 30080 770-434-0051 http://www.engineered.net Well, I don't think I'm going to use Jeff and company. Christ...I could buy a showroom condition TGP for what he wants to swap it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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