dbtk2 Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 I have a problem/question. Every day I get in my TSTE at about 7:30 in the morning. Now, this being Michigan it is only like 50-60 degrees outside when I get in it. I usually let it warm up for 1-2 minutes before driving, but if I get on it more than about 1/2 way when its cold it sputters and coughs and stuff (and has done so since I got the chip, and the 2 door TGP does the same thing). So this morning I leave and the car SEEMS to be doing the same thing. So about 3 miles later (the temp gauge read fully warmed up) I got on it because I pulled out into traffic and it did the same thing. The car seems to have close to, or the same amount of power, but either something is knocking (almost sounds like rod knock, but only under load), it is misfiring, or there is something wrong with the tranny. Everytime I get on the gas at about 3200 or more RPM it will act like this. It kind of feels like a flat tire actually, but only when on the gas more than like 3/4 of the way. So I was investigating it, and the first thing I checked was the coils. The coils appeared to be good and the car idles smooth (or at least as smooth as it normally idles with a stock crossover) and has good throttle response. I didn't test the wires but they all looked good too. I know the front plugs are all good, and I was just about to check the rear plugs but I had to turn the car around (so it was rolling forward down the driveway, as this is how I tilt the engine forward) and I heard a weird noise, so I popped the hood (kind of sounded like the fan hitting ignition wires or something, so I left the engine on and checked it out) and looked under the hood and everything looked fine. I sat back in the car and once or twice I felt a little grinding or rubbing feel (like something catching and releasing or something), but this was the point when I looked to my left and saw a bunch of smoke everywhere. The car has always poured blue smoke out the back when it was running less than 40psi of oil pressure (figured it was the valve guides, so wasn't too worried about it) and it may have been this blue smoke, because it smelled a little like oil, however it looked white, which tells me coolant, but it was also in the light from the lights on the front of the garage, so it may have been blue, but the smoke was pouring out the exhaust pretty good, and it just didn't seem normal. This is the point where i shut the engine down and checked the oil, and it was a little over full (1/8" on the dipstick), but it does that sometimes where I will fill it completely full and then it is over full when it is completely warmed up, so I'm not sure there if there is coolant in the oil or not. It looked kind of clean (not really clean, but it does have about 2k on it), but it smelled normal. Something just isn't right about it. I don't feel good about it, and I'm thinking it is the head gasket. I didn't see if boost changed at all, but thats not really what I'm worried about. I'm gonna try to put it up on ramps and see if i can see anything visually wrong with the tranny, but the tranny fluid is full so thats not a problem. I also am gonna change the rear plugs. I think while I'm changing the rear plugs I will do a compression test at the same time, which should tell me if the gasket is blown or not. However, does the symptoms sound like a blown headgasket. They do to me, but the misfire like thing that is happening is what is throwing me off. I'm only 16 so I'm not entirely familiar with the symptoms of these things, I would appreciate someones help that has some decent experience with these things. It looks like in the meantime I will probably be driving the 2 door TGP, so its not all bad. Thanks, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 I don't think that if you loose compression through the head gasket to the point where the power loss is felt you can actually dirve and idle the car. My bet is on the coils. I don't think a visual inspection is good enough. My car did the same thing and it was the middle coil fubard. See if you can swap it from your other cars. As long as it's gm they all are the same. I'm using a set from an STS. Good luck Adam S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddux31 Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 get the rear plugs changed and find a known good coil so you can swap them out and see if performance changes or improves. If you have a blowwn head gasket you will be losing coolant internally or externally. Internally will be what is called combustion to coolant leak--combustion chamber is leaking combustion charge into coolant passage and literally cooking your antifreeze away--you will not see coolant on the ground. Externally will be called coolant to atmosphere--the gasket will leak coolant under pressure to the ooutside of the head or block--you will see coolant on the groud or on your engine somewhere. Sometimes when they blow they will do both of these. Then there is always the coolant to oil internal variety where your oil begins to look like chocolate milk and the oil doesn't lubricate well with the mix going on. So theoretically you should have one of these symptoms or a combination of 2 or 3 if your head gaskets are having any trouble. You will almost always begin to overheat with a blown head gasket or see a low coolant light. Good Luck..... :? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted July 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 get the rear plugs changed and find a known good coil so you can swap them out and see if performance changes or improves. If you have a blowwn head gasket you will be losing coolant internally or externally. Internally will be what is called combustion to coolant leak--combustion chamber is leaking combustion charge into coolant passage and literally cooking your antifreeze away--you will not see coolant on the ground. Externally will be called coolant to atmosphere--the gasket will leak coolant under pressure to the ooutside of the head or block--you will see coolant on the groud or on your engine somewhere. Sometimes when they blow they will do both of these. Then there is always the coolant to oil internal variety where your oil begins to look like chocolate milk and the oil doesn't lubricate well with the mix going on. So theoretically you should have one of these symptoms or a combination of 2 or 3 if your head gaskets are having any trouble. You will almost always begin to overheat with a blown head gasket or see a low coolant light. Good Luck..... :? Well, I know i have a coolant leak, but it is weird so I have ignored it. I can fill up the radiator all the way and it lose coolant, but only to a certain point, then it either stops losing it or loses it slowly from then on, because the low coolant light is only on until the car is like half warmed up (like 110 degrees or so). I pulled the rear plugs (didn't have time to pull all the plugs and do a compression test or I would have), and the plug in the #1 cyl. was white. The other two plugs were both normal. I am pretty sure a white plug means coolant. After I changed the plugs the car ran fine, like it did before i had the problem, smooth and everything, until it got warmed up and it does the same thing, so I am almost positive its the head gasket, but I'm not sure. I just put new coils on it a month ago, and I thought about putting one of the old ones on and seeing if its any different, but then i saw the white plug so now I'm thinking its the head gasket. I'm gonna do a compression test soon to make sure, but I haven't had time to get around to it yet. I have to rebuild the heads anyways to fix the smoking problem, so I figure I will probably just tear it apart and see what I find. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Don't think it was suggested yet, but maybe check the timing also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddux31 Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 our coolant level sensor is at the top of the radiator so when you start the car up it will read low until the coolant begins to circulate and reach the sensor-thus the light will go out. If you are losing coolant on a regular basis (fast or slow) to a point where you are adding it back in but you can't visibly locate the leak it is most likely a combustion to coolant leak as stated before. The white plug is probably on the cylinder where this is occuring. These leaks are usually small and will eventually require attention as it will not fix itself. Take a good look at your oil and make anote of any irregular milky condition. If no milky that is good. The next step is to determine absolutely that your radiator and coolant lines do not have a leak that you may have overlooked--passenger side frame rail has a coolant line that is commonly failed on the w-body I believe, check this thouroughly--put some cardboard under the car for a day/night or two to really eliminate the possibility of a leak externally. Some people say that "bars leaks" will help you but it just blew a bigger hole in my head gasket when I was having a problem this winter. One more thing to note is the replacement gasket options--Iwould use the GM part because there is a small difference in the crushed thickness of the other gaskets out there. If you end up replacing the gaskets make sure you replace the head bolts also as they are designed to be torqued only one time and then thrown away. GM mechanic told me to torque the gaskets/heads on with no copper spray a gasket (place on the block dry) and torque to exact specifications with a GOOD TORQUE WRENCH. If you have any more questions feel free to pm me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted July 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 our coolant level sensor is at the top of the radiator so when you start the car up it will read low until the coolant begins to circulate and reach the sensor-thus the light will go out. Yup, I know that. When it says low coolant it isn't very low, and since it expands when it heats up it gets up to the sensor and the light goes off. Its been like this the whole time I've had the car so I'm not horribly worried about it. It DOES NOT leak on the ground at all. If you are losing coolant on a regular basis (fast or slow) to a point where you are adding it back in but you can't visibly locate the leak it is most likely a combustion to coolant leak as stated before. The white plug is probably on the cylinder where this is occuring. These leaks are usually small and will eventually require attention as it will not fix itself. Yes, I know this as well. Thats why I want to get the heads off and change the gaskets because I know it isn't going to go away, and its probably just going to get worse, which it seems like it already has gotten worse. As soon as I pulled the plug and saw that it was white, I was pretty sure that head gasket had to be bad. Thats the cyl. that it felt like all the misfires were coming from as well. When I posted this originally I hadn't investigated it at all, but I had suspected a blown head gasket for a LONG time in this car, but it was never bad enough to smoke white smoke or idle bad or have misfires or anythign, and I could never notice any coolant in the oil and it wasn't losing much so I was kind of ignoring it. Take a good look at your oil and make anote of any irregular milky condition. If no milky that is good. The next step is to determine absolutely that your radiator and coolant lines do not have a leak that you may have overlooked--passenger side frame rail has a coolant line that is commonly failed on the w-body I believe, check this thouroughly--put some cardboard under the car for a day/night or two to really eliminate the possibility of a leak externally. I know for sure it doesn't leak on the ground. We have a garage with an epoxy coated floor, and when water is on the floor it will stay there for weeks, however long it takes it to evaporate, it doesn't soak in. And everytime i have parked the car in the garage the floor has been dry. I also always park it in the same spot in the driveway, and the driveway is clean there, no leaks. One more thing to note is the replacement gasket options--Iwould use the GM part because there is a small difference in the crushed thickness of the other gaskets out there. If you end up replacing the gaskets make sure you replace the head bolts also as they are designed to be torqued only one time and then thrown away. GM mechanic told me to torque the gaskets/heads on with no copper spray a gasket (place on the block dry) and torque to exact specifications with a GOOD TORQUE WRENCH. If you have any more questions feel free to pm me. I am planning on using the GM head gaskets (I was planning on just going to the dealer and getting all of the gaskets I will need for the intakes and tb and egr and all that) and the GM head bolts. From what I've heard the GM gaskets are the best so thats why I was planning on using them. I know I can't re-use the head bolts, thats just common sense, they stretch like everything else in the engine, and it will just cause me to blow another head gasket if i don't change them, its like re-using rod bolts. I have a few good torque wrenches, and I have all of the tightening sequences and everything that i need along with torque specs, so actually doing the job shouldn't be a problem, I was just trying to see if I actually do have a blown head gasket, which it looks like i do. Thank you, I appreciate all the help. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted July 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Don't think it was suggested yet, but maybe check the timing also. But that doesn't explain it only misfiring on one cylinder and the white plug on that same cylinder. The car also still has lots of power, which it doesn't seem like it would if the timing were off. Like I said, I'm just going to tear the engine apart soon (in the next 2-3 weeks I hope) and rebuild the heads and replace the headgaskets. And while I'm in there I think I will do a couple other little things too. It looks like 13's may be coming sooner than I thought. The cam, ud pulley, 1.52 roller rockers, ported exhaust manifolds, and 2.5" downpipe sure aren't gonna hurt. Then I'll take it down to a guy I know and try to tune the chip a little. The significantly ligher wheels & tires will help also. The car will just be down a little longer than I would like. But thats whats nice about living in a small town and having a nice bicycle. When I get it all done it will be a lot different, thats for sure. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddux31 Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 one other thing I did when i had the top end open was add a little supplemental oil to the # 9 and # 10 cam lobes with some small stailness tubing from the front side oil galley. My cam completely blew the #10 lobe off with only 65,000 miles on it-- not that this is at all common though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted July 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2004 one other thing I did when i had the top end open was add a little supplemental oil to the # 9 and # 10 cam lobes with some small stailness tubing from the front side oil galley. My cam completely blew the #10 lobe off with only 65,000 miles on it-- not that this is at all common though. I will see what the cam in the engine now looks like when I pull it out, and if I see that it looks worn down on those lobes, I'll try to find a way to add some oil, otherwise I'm not to worried. I have heard that this is definately a common problem though, its starting to worry me. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Shawn, let me know how your hedgaskets go. ii have the same problem in my 92. Does yours start roughly/ hard to start? I have that problem as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted July 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2004 My car starts very easily and still has lots of power. However it smokes white smoke out the back and goes through coolant (which obviously it is burning out the exhaust). It also gets bad gas mileage. I would check your plugs/wires/coils if your car starts hard. I will post a summary of the whole head gasket project as I am doing it. I'm gonna take my time and work on it a few hours a day so it will probably take me like a week. I'm doing a cam and a few other things at the same time so it will be a little more complicated than what you want to do, but everything you need to do I'll be doing so I can help you out when you do yours. I ordered all the parts and they should be in around Wednesday or so. I'll probably be tearing apart the car the following week. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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