Adam S. Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Hi All I know have a 1992 swapped Grand Prix Turbo. I've bought the Grand Prix from ND and used the engine and tranny for my 1992. During my ordeal I have found some interesting things. First this engine has a Air to Air intercooler not a water to air like it's stated in the Turbo Grand Prix section. Second it has a Powered master brake cylinder. Waste of money and quite illegal in Canada oh it costs 4200.00 dollars to replace and yes it was leaking. Third the rear brakes only have one brake line going to it from the brake master and they are split in a block just before the rear wheels. Fourt the trip computer and head up displays are garbage. Some sort of grate on the HUD that make seeing the actuall numbers next to impossible until it's dark. The trip computer cannot be switched to KM only Miles. Fifth. The instrument cluster has a crappy electric boost gauge that is very optimistic. It was showing 15 psi of boost. When I hooked up my VDO boost gauge it showed only 10 psi. The AC fan is in the front of the radiator not behind it like in other cars The transmission cooler is in the right fender with a hose routing air from the bumper area, but the hose is 90 degrees to the actuall airflow so I doubt there is efficent cooling. It almost seems like this was patched together in a barnyard. Oh well. I have taken the GMness out of it when I transplanted it to my 1992. All in all I'm pleased with the buy. I now have a pile of interior stuff that I will be selling. Let me know what you all need and I'll sell it to you. Best Regards Adam S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burning Rom Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 The HUD isn't garbage. The grate IS what allows you to see the display. Your dimmer switch is just screwed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 First this engine has a Air to Air intercooler -Where does it say that its air to water? Second it has a Powered master brake cylinder. -IF you pay GM dealer cost. I guess its 4200 cnd? Typical dealer price is $2500, but Prior Reman has them for $500 approx. **How is it illegal considering I can think of a dozen cars off the top of my head that use some form of electric assist braking. Third the rear brakes only have one brake line -Many cars, especially RWD cars are like this Fourt the trip computer and head up displays are garbage. -Don't know about the KM part, but its not the grate that makes it hard to see, its the glass being dirty. I haven't had the special windshield in two of my TGP's and the display is still easily visible. Cleaning it goes a long way to visibility. The trip computer can be kinda hard to see. Fifth. The instrument cluster has a crappy electric boost gauge that is very optimistic. -YEP! Most boosted cars have bad bad boost guages. Many don't even read manifold pressure, they just calculate it based on airflow. The AC fan is in the front of the radiator not behind it like in other cars -This can be a good thing because it will get more air flowing into the condenser. There are a few cars like this, but many have dual fan setups on the rear. The transmission cooler is in the right fender -Most efficient? No, but it may be better than blocking condenser/radiator flow with another cooler. It almost seems like this was patched together in a barnyard. - And an expensive barnyard at that considering what it cost new! There were quite a few things I'd change too! But 13-14 years of automotive engineering puts a different view on things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. Posted June 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Thanks for the reply here are a few things Go into this site w-body.com where it discribes all the wbody cars. There you see a description of the McLaren turbo grand prix and it states it's a water to air intercooler. The powered brake system is not the same as power assist. Everyihing in this honk of metal is electric. Most things from GM from that era does not work properly (that is electric) case in point remote door locks. The sauder was so bad that it cracked during t emperature changes and it only worked in cold not hot. So I would not want a brake system designed with the same quality. According to GM canada only two cars came with power brakes in Canada. GNX and now the Turbo GRAND Prix. The illegal part came from the GM Canada rep not me. 4200.00 price tag is canadian dollars. And since it has to be imported you see the price. This car is not a rear wheel drive so the brake system should not be singular going to the back. The reason of quad brake lines is in the event of a failure. When the TGP brake system fails it will pull to one side since three wheels will work at braking and one will not ( the failed one). The newer system have the brakes hooked up diagonally. This way if for example the front right brakes fail the front left and rear right brakes work to stop you with minimal pull to any side. When I mean fail I mean fluid leak. The 1992 grand prix has a factory cooler in front of the radiator way better I have been running that for years and all tranny coolers that you buy now are made to be hooked up in front of the radiator not in the fender. The fan in front of the condensor is not as efficient as behind the condenser. The ammount of air that you can move by is what determines efficent cooling. If now you have a big electric motor, plastic pieces and fan blades all these things hinder flow. The cooling system was designed to work with ram air. The reason the fan is in front is because they could not fit it behind. The new generation HUDS don't have a grate on them plus you can adjust tilt and birghtness from one position not two different places. As I said I'm parting with the hud and trip computer if anyone needs it. Regards Adam S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90TGP Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Is the TGP a red 2-door? If it is, how much do you want for the plastic panel on the drivers door if it has no defects to it? I have chunk taken out of my door panel and would like to have it replaced. My email is WS6TASY@Zoominternet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 What kind of interior stuff?? Robby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Go into this site w-body.com where it discribes all the wbody cars -I see where it says the Turbo is water cooled, but not the intercooler. http://www.w-body.com/motors/vin-v.html The powered brake system is not the same as power assist. -How? Most of the PMIIIs electrics are for ABS operation. The booster portion is electric, and has a reserve. It is however no different than a vacuum booster, as in if you get a booster failure you will still have manual brakes. GNX and now the Turbo GRAND Prix. -Any w-body with abs 88-91, Lincoln Mark VII's ,Jeep Cherokees, many H-Body cars up to 1991 have a Teaves Electric Brake system, mid-90's toyotas, lexuses, new Mercedes Benz, I can go on. Furthermore, not only did the GNX have the Powermaster electric brakes, but so did all Turbo Regals and Grand Nationals from 1986 to 1987. The illegal part came from the GM Canada rep not me. -What I wonder is why its illegal in canada? It just makes alot of cars illegal. This car is not a rear wheel drive so the brake system should not be singular going to the back. -How is FWD different than RWD as far as the brakes are concerned? The dual diagonal split is to decrase the chance hydraulically that you will completely lose front braking. But its not to counter any "pull" from a brake failure. With a front rear bias, you would either lose the fronts or the rears. No possibility for a pull. With a dual diagonal setup you would lose one front and one rear, so only one side in the front would pull on a stop. So if anything THAT should cause it to pull. As all the braking would be on one front side. The rear brakes contribute so little to the stopping equation that their force could not counter the opposite front. What DOES counter the pull in a brake failure in a dual diagonal setup is the High positive offset of the wheels. It has to do with the steering axis to wheel centerline location. When the brakes are applied, the wheel/tire pushes against the road and pushes backwards on the car. So the road is pushing the wheel/tire towards the back of the car. If the wheel centerline is outboard of the steering axis, it will cause the wheel to pivot outwards. On a FWD car, the centerline of the wheel is inside of the steering axis (ever notice how far into the wheel the lower balljoint is?) The wheel/tire will still go backwards, but it will pivot inwards. This counteracts the force the brakes are appling to just that side of the car and helps it to stop straight when there is a front wheel failure. The 1992 grand prix has a factory cooler in front of the radiator way -The high pressure air infront of the condenser, joined with the low pressure air under the car helps to draw air through the fender mounted trans cooler. I had my doubts too, but it seems to work pretty well. If now you have a big electric motor, plastic pieces and fan blades all these things hinder flow. - If you are blowing through a straw and stick your tounge in the hole the flow stops, If you are blowing through a straw and stick your finger over the end the flow stops. With flow does it really matter if the obstruction is in front or behind? Slightly, but mostly because the air is already slowed down from the condenser and radiator the impact the fans have behind it is far less than in front, when going down the road. they could not fit behind... -Certainly not because it was better! The only benefit I could see is that when the main fan is drawing air through the radiator, there are places for it to leak between the radiator and the condenser, so air is drawn around the condenser and not through it. With the front condenser fan, the full flow of the fan is forced through the condenser. The new generation HUDS don't have a grate on them plus you can adjust tilt and birghtness from one position not two different places. -Very true. The two position adjustment is annoying, but its reliable. The next generation hud controls have a habit of breaking. They also have clear plastic instead of glass which is easier to scratch and dull.I always wanted to try and graft in one that showed the radio station. I was never a fan of the grating, but I think it works as well as newer designs when its clean. As far a ergonomics... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 I got the following interior stuff in tan. front seats, center console with controls for the seats, trip computer, hud, instrument panel, glove box, switches for the doors. The rest of the stuff was broken so I threw it away. As far as FWD and RWD cars are concerned there is quite a bit of difference in braking. Ususally the RWD came with drum setups, you can also leave the RWD car in gear and use brakes at the same time so they don't lock up. True there is little power going to the rear brakes anyways so loosing the rears is not big deal. As far as the quad brake system loosing directional control you are talking about gyroscopic precession. The tire in combination with the front weight of the car do not give enough precession to cause steering problems. For some odd reason GM went to the quad brake systems after 1991. Ususally they are on the ball with these things so something does not add up with the powered brake booster. Plus the reason they were using powered brake booster is because of the turbo. They do not want drivers to brake under boost. My mistake on the water cooled intercooler stuff I missread it now I read it as the turbo is water cooled. I thought that is normal for any turbo, why state the obvious? Your anology with the straw is rather interesting, but too perfect. You are thinking of supersonic flow where the air molecules are unaware of the sonic shock that is about to approach them. We are not flowing air throught the engine bay at supersonic flow so the air molecules do know that there is an obstruction approaching them. So they move aside before the obstruction arrives hence less ammount of air. Ask yourself this. When a big truck passes you why does your car move aside. It's all that air that is being deflected by the truck. Now if that truck would move at supersonic speed you would not be pushed aside unless you get into the shockwave and that does not happen until the truck passed you. The 3.4 TDC engines have both fans behind the radiator. The 3.1 turbo does not have space there, because they had to make the radiator smaller and thicker to fit an intercooler beside it. The proper way (I'll eventually make it that way) is to put a long intercooler in the air dam area and make the radiator long and thin. This way both fans are behind and ram air cools everything. Regards Adam S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 True there is little power going to the rear brakes anyways so loosing the rears is not big deal. -True, but on a front/rear car, I wouldn't want to lose just the fronts! As far as the quad brake system loosing directional control you are talking about gyroscopic precession. The tire in combination with the front weight of the car do not give enough precession to cause steering problems. -HUH? First we are saying there is the possibility for the brakes to pull, now there isn't ? Gyroscopic precession would have little to do with whether the car pulls during a brake failure. I assume you are implying that the weight of the car would have an impact on the angular momentum of the wheel. Maybe, but when it comes to brakeing, there is little need to concern ourselves with the rotational mass of the wheel. Determining if a car will pull to one side or another can be viewed completely linearly outside of the rotation of the tire/wheel, with the tire a non-rotating mass, combined with the mass of the car, exibiting a force on the road. The only rotation variables observed being those around the steering axis, and the resulting torque the tire/wheel applies around it. I'm not saying the angular momentum of the wheel isn't signifigant to the wheel, or even the steering system with respect to angular momentum, but when compared to the linear momentum of the car its negligible as the linear forces applied to the wheel as a stationary mass and the car have far more impact on the steering system than the ones of angular momentum. Plus the reason they were using powered brake booster is because of the turbo. They do not want drivers to brake under boost. -On the GN/TType it was because of the Turbo, just as on earlier models they used Hydroboost. But the TTA and Sy/Ty had vacuum brakes. On the TGP the powered booster is because of the ABS. The TGP was intended to come fully loaded. Most early abs setups used an accumulator and high pressure pump to meter the modulation. Later designes eliminated the high pressure accumulator and just used pumps when abs action was needed. Your anology with the straw is rather interesting, but too perfect. -I know, it was the only example that would fit my argument. The 3.4 TDC engines have both fans behind the radiator -Absolutely! Using a thinner longer radaitor with a lower fin count and a long thing intercooler allows the most flow through the coolers. Why it took manufacturers so long to realize this is beyond me. Just as on the GN/Ttypes is seems a much simpler setup to have a front mount. I don't know if its packaging/assembly concerns, or a loss of condenser cooling they were worried about or what. Chris[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 I know have a 1992 swapped Grand Prix Turbo. I've bought the Grand Prix from ND and used the engine and tranny for my 1992. Wow, wouldn't it have been easier to just buy a TGP engine? I know of one sitting in a 'yard complete with turbocharger for US$200. Only thing missing is the crossover pipe. It seems a waste to destroy a perfectly good TGP if all you're after is the engine and tranny. The differences between a TGP engine and tranny vs. a NA 3.1L are rather unremarkable. It's the uniqueness of the car itself that made it worthwhile to buy at all, at least to me. Second it has a Powered master brake cylinder. Waste of money and quite illegal in Canada oh it costs 4200.00 dollars to replace and yes it was leaking. Virtually every car of the late 80's and early 90's from virtually every auto manufacturer (even Honda) that offered ABS used some kind of highly complex electronically boosted power brake system, also known as an integrated ABS system. This is not unique of the TGP or even GM. The AC fan is in the front of the radiator not behind it like in other cars Many Mercedes-Benz had the fans in the front as well. http://www.icardeals.com/nwicars/03-063a/03-063aengine.jpg Fourt the trip computer and head up displays are garbage. Some sort of grate on the HUD that make seeing the actuall numbers next to impossible until it's dark. The trip computer cannot be switched to KM only Miles. The HUD grate is necessary because the lens is real glass. Since it's plate glass, the grate eliminates glare from the sun. Remove the grate on a bright sunny day with the angle of the sun just right, and the HUD glass will blind you. The grate also doesn't seem to be of any impedance on my HUD, there must be something wrong with the brightness of yours. The trip computer cannot be switched to KM because as you have already found out, the TGP was not exported to Canada. As a result, KM would have been pointless. If you really wanted the trip computer in KM, it's as simple as grounding one of the pins. The new generation HUDS don't have a grate on them plus you can adjust tilt and birghtness from one position not two different places. As I said I'm parting with the hud and trip computer if anyone needs it. This is because the newer HUDs are greatly cost reduced with plastic lenses. Being that the lenses are plastic, they can easily be made curved so that the grate is not necessary. Actually, image sharpness of the TGP HUD is far superior to the newer generation HUDs. The height mechanism is also quite a bit more reliable than the cable-driven height mechanism that was used 91-94. My mistake on the water cooled intercooler stuff I missread it now I read it as the turbo is water cooled. I thought that is normal for any turbo, why state the obvious? Many cars (older Saab, Volvo, some diesel engines, etc) do not have water-cooled turbochargers. Look on Ebay for used turbochargers and you'll probably find several that are not water-cooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Wow, wouldn't it have been easier to just buy a TGP engine?I know of one sitting in a 'yard complete with turbocharger for US$200. Only thing missing is the crossover pipe. jeeeeeeezzzz Shawn why don't you go get that thing? i thought i got a good deal on my complete TGP engine for $350! they couldn't sell me the whole car tho (TSTE) i know you already have a nice TGP, but why not slap it in your Cutlass with a 5-speed? joshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 Plus the reason they were using powered brake booster is because of the turbo. They do not want drivers to brake under boost. Why not??? I can brake torque the car in gear and run over 3000 rpms just setting there and the car will get boost, is there a problem with this other than it is very hard on the car? (I do that to make a nice smoke show when I let off the brake) You are saying they were trying to prevent this or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 30, 2003 Report Share Posted June 30, 2003 The point there was that with a vacuum powered brake booster, there wouldn't be any vacuum under boost to power the brakes so they used a hydraulic booster on some cars. The vacuum booster however has enough reserve that unless you continually braked under boost you would be able to get at least one or two stops in. And brake boosting isn't nice to your car it heats up the tranny alot! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 1, 2003 Report Share Posted July 1, 2003 Wow, wouldn't it have been easier to just buy a TGP engine?I know of one sitting in a 'yard complete with turbocharger for US$200. Only thing missing is the crossover pipe. jeeeeeeezzzz Shawn why don't you go get that thing? i thought i got a good deal on my complete TGP engine for $350! they couldn't sell me the whole car tho (TSTE) i know you already have a nice TGP, but why not slap it in your Cutlass with a 5-speed? I would, but I don't have time for more projects right now. Plus, it's a high mileage engine and although I'm sure it runs fine (junkyard guys claimed it did), I would probably use it for parts. I think it had 168k on it, although definitely worth it for $200 since it has turbo, downpipe, and all. When I have time for another project, I might go offer them $150 for it. They actually don't know they have it. Every time I ask about it I have to talk the guy into letting me in the engine room with him to show him that they really do have it. They said they haven't received a single call on that engine, so I figure it'll still be there by the time I decide I want it, and if not, no biggie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. Posted July 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Wow, wouldn't it have been easier to just buy a TGP engine?I know of one sitting in a 'yard complete with turbocharger for US$200. Only thing missing is the crossover pipe. It seems a waste to destroy a perfectly good TGP if all you're after is the engine and tranny. The differences between a TGP engine and tranny vs. a NA 3.1L are rather unremarkable. It's the uniqueness of the car itself that made it worthwhile to buy at all, at least to me. The only place I can buy a TGP engine is in the US. It would have costed me to deliver the car to Canada 1900 US dollars and 1000 US dollars to deliver a motor with trany and all wiring / computer. Virtually every car of the late 80's and early 90's from virtually every auto manufacturer (even Honda) that offered ABS used some kind of highly complex electronically boosted power brake system, also known as an integrated ABS system. This is not unique of the TGP or even GM. I will be using this car on the track (not 1/4 mile) and the last thing I want is for this garbage brake system to fail. Virtually any car on the race track does not have powered brakes they are all vacuum driven. Even the late eighties early nineties cars have changed over to vacuum. Less moving parts / more reliable. The only electronic part left in track cars are the remains of ABS systems that drivers don't want or haven't gotten around to remove. The only thing good about the fan being in front of the radiator is that in a small front end colision it will dig into your AC condenser (or evaporator I can't remember which one is in front) and now you not only have to change the fan your AC is messed up as well. As I said backyard mechanics. After thought ideas. As far as non water cooled turbos, I'm sure they exist in the industry and pretty sure that those ones are sitting somewhere that ambient air is able to cool them. In the small engine compartment of a grand prix, where the turbo is on top of the tranny (heat rises) I did not think that mentioning a water cooled turbo would be worth the time. Now no mention of an intercooler is interesting. No flames intended just an outsider observation. The car that I bought for the track was useless. It was hit in the front right side and the frame was not true and straight. Quite a bit of rust under the passanger seat. I wish I could have kept the car but it was not salvagable. At least I kept the good parts of it and I will part with the other stuff. Regards Adam S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 I will be using this car on the track (not 1/4 mile) and the last thing I want is for this garbage brake system to fail. Virtually any car on the race track does not have powered brakes they are all vacuum driven. Even the late eighties early nineties cars have changed over to vacuum. Less moving parts / more reliable. The only electronic part left in track cars are the remains of ABS systems that drivers don't want or haven't gotten around to remove. I agree, it's a garbage brake system, but like I said, it was the norm of the day in the automotive industry. Bendix, Bosch, and Teves all had similarly worthless ABS systems back then. It's not something specific to the TGP. Had TGP production been carried through 92-up, I'm sure they would have switched it to the new non-integrated ABS system. The only thing good about the fan being in front of the radiator is that in a small front end colision it will dig into your AC condenser (or evaporator I can't remember which one is in front) and now you not only have to change the fan your AC is messed up as well. As I said backyard mechanics. After thought ideas. I still disagree. The 81-91 S-class Mercedes had 2 fans in front of the radiator. Those cars were high-dollar and I don't think many people would call Mercedes a poorly engineered car. Besides, if you're in a front-end collision bad enough to push the fan into the condenser, do you really care if the condenser still works? Chances are, the core support will be bent and the car rendered a total loss by insurance anyway. In a collision, pretty much anything in front of the firewall is considered sacrificial anyway (crumple zones). As far as non water cooled turbos, I'm sure they exist in the industry and pretty sure that those ones are sitting somewhere that ambient air is able to cool them. In the small engine compartment of a grand prix, where the turbo is on top of the tranny (heat rises) I did not think that mentioning a water cooled turbo would be worth the time. Now no mention of an intercooler is interesting. No flames intended just an outsider observation. A spec is a spec! There's probably even more cars than we're both aware of where the turbo isn't water cooled. I read somewhere the 80's Dodge Omni turbos were not water cooled. Some Greddy turbo kits for Miatas are not water cooled. I didn't want to leave anyone guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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