I GIVE UP,'94 GP SE 3100 SFI LIM Repair, I GIVE UP!!!!

[Canada]

Usually they won't start...or start and die....when there is a large vacuum leak like that. I seem to like to not hook the brake booster hose up.

[KCFITZ78]

Usually they won't start...or start and die....when there is a large vacuum leak like that. I seem to like to not hook the brake booster hose up.

 

You forgot........forgot.......forgot to hook up the brake booster

 

Well let me quote you "Not to be a dick, but this is why some people shouldn't work on cars."

 

I don't know if I shorted anything out for all I know it could be a spun bearing it could be anything. I don't claim to be an expert and I don't think anyone on here should. Anyone that thinks they are an expert can prove it by looking at my car in person. Trust me I hope it is something stupid I did, rather than it being a fatal problem.

[R Dubya]

Canada = GM Certified Technician

 

This is beyond my internet diagnostic skills. I'm out.

[KCFITZ78]

SUMMARY OF THREAD:

Tore top of engine apart (see first post), Put engine back together (including new plugs), went to start for the first time a got really rough idle, has a knock but its not consistant and got really hot. It was then hard to start and rough idle. Checked coils, wires, pulled plugs (plugs were black) and put new in. Still no change on start up. Tired disconecting CAT, but still the same. Finally got cooling system purged, but still same. Checked torque on all bolts I could get to, checked for visable leaks, checked vaccum pressure, checked coil and wires again, still same. And last I inserted a stop plate between EGR and manifold to keep exhaust out in case EGR valve was stuck open, still same. Also has not thrown a single code during all of this and still idles rough and has a knock.

 

Current state:

Car will idle, but rough. Also there is a knock in the engine but it is not consitant. Was able to drive bout 250 yards, but was down a cylinder or two.

 

Completed Checklist:

-no visable leaks, good

-sprayed ether and no vaccum leaks, good

-vaccum tested and was fine, 17", good

-pulled valve covers and checked bent rods, good

-blocked off egr in case egr was stuck open, good

-dissconnected cat in case cat was pluged, good

-compression tested 150 to 160 psi throughout all cylinders, good

-checked coils, good

-checked wires for spark, good

-rechecked firing order, good

-black plugs, put in new plugs

 

Left to check:

-test fuel injectors?

-check fuse to fuel injectors?

-check crank sensor could be bad?

-check other fuses?

-visable check for bad wires?

 

[THe_DeTAiL3R]

I did however forget to tighten the TB so it was bouncing off the rev limiter due to crazy vacuum leak, but I quickly got it figured out.

 

I'll bet that first start-up scared the piss out of you!

 

Damn right it did! I was worried I might have fucked up the engine, since it hadn't had any oil in it for a week (parts not lubricated)!

[Crazy K]

test the ohms at the infjectors.

[stiv2k]

I was surprised my car started right up after I did the LIM for the first time last year. I mean it's a pretty big job if you've never done it before. I did however forget to tighten the TB so it was bouncing off the rev limiter due to crazy vacuum leak, but I quickly got it figured out.

 

x2 on that, when I did it it ran like shit for a day or two for unknown reasons then every day after that it's been running like brand new again

[FordBoy]

THats my guess injectors or spun baring(I cant spell ).

[jcherolis]

Long strand, lots of input, I also replaced head gaskets and up on my 94 GP w/ 3.1 v6. First thing I found was the 94 doesn't go by the Chilton's as far as firing order and coil arrangement. my wired up like this, enen in front, in rear. coil arrangement on the rear of the engine, 2-5, 6-3,1-4 2-5 on passenger side. wouldn't even start with the book info. also had a high temp reading after 5 min, pegged out but engine didn't feel hot, coolant was moving. bought an an electric temp gage and put in bleed hole neer pump. actual temp only 190. car runs like a bat out of hell, just got to figure out the temp gage thing, on 3rd sending unit. good luck joe

[19Cutlass94]

After I did mine, I started it up, it when directly up to 2grand and ran like shit. After buying a new IAC and pulling the ECM fuse for about 10minute, put the new IAC in and put the fuse back in, and BAM all the problems where fixed. Now it could be as simple as that, or it could just be to the point where describing online will do nothing and youll need someone to actually be there to figure it out.

[R Dubya]

ok...

 

rear of engine : from left to right (when standing in front of car with hood open) 1 - 3 - 5

front of engine : " " 2 - 4 - 6

 

coil arrangement on my car was (again left to right) 1-4 3-6 2-5

 

i remembered by 14's too young, 63 (or 36) is too old, 25 is just right.

 

PLAY BALL!

i know it was just posted, just wanted to clarify. Is the 3100 a different firing order, anyone know??

[19Cutlass94]

Firing Order 1-2-3-4-5-6

[R Dubya]

yes, that I know, sorry, should have been worded correctly instead of dead wrong.

 

what is the coil order on the 3100? from left to right? my 3.1 goes the way I listed but the other dude there listed it differently.

[19Cutlass94]

2-5 6-3 1-4 ( left to right looking at the engine )

 

First number of each is on the bottom of the coil pack.

[jeremy]

this thread really has me leaning to just dropping in a 3400 instead of doing the gaskets on my car

[THe_DeTAiL3R]

If I were going to drop a 3400 in my car I'd want to do the LIM gaskets (and headgaskets) before hand anyways

[Canada]

Sounds like the plugs wires might be crossed....like everyone has been saying. GM always numbers engines front to back.....the first one is one....so in a V pattern, even on one bank, odd the other. The evens are up front. They are paired 1/4, 2/5, and 3/6...all the info was correct there.

 

Is it a knock or a tick? when the engine has been torn down the lifters bleed down and the valvetrain lash goes big, making a tick noise....sometimes even run rough as the valves won't open enough. Run it a bit and the oil pumps them back up.

 

As long as you didn't get much coolant or dirt in it.....vacuumed the valley, changed the oil when done.....you should be fine as far as mechanical damage goes. Sounds like it hasn't been running long enough to do that. The only mechanical thing I would be worried about is mixing up short and long pushrods......but then the pushrod goes into an S shape and the valve bends....as the longer rod pushes the valve open farther, hitting the piston. This could explain the misfire and engine noise, but you said you had the pushrods out and they were okay. Compression was also okay....it would be low if a valve was bent and not sealing.

 

Did you happen to have the injectors and wiring off the rail? If so, do you perhaps have a #2 connector on a #4 injector? Injectors themselves can be swapped, just not the connectors. Are all the o-rings okay as the injectors go into the manifold? Which brings me too....

 

All vacuum ports connected/capped? The top left port for HVAC, the port for the MAP and regulator, and the port for the transmission pressure control. If there is a vacuum leak, you'll hear a sucking noise.

 

Did you reuse the gaskets when you tore it down the second time?

 

So it starts and runs.....just has a rough idle and a tick/knocking noise (which one?).....

[Pabz]

If I can make a suggestion, you say you get rough idle, this could be due to

1. bad spark plugs/wires (i had 2 new spark plugs (delcos) shit out on me, factory defect)

2. Valve train not working properly,

 

Have you taken the valve covers off and cranked it over to see if all valves are opening

 

for me since i had coolant in the oil, that killed the hydrolic lifters which caused some valves to not open since the lifters were not tightening up, hence rough idle and wierd inconsistent knocking.

I replaced all lifters and it replaced the broken spark plugs and viola, it was purrring.

[KCFITZ78]

Sounds like the plugs wires might be crossed....like everyone has been saying. GM always numbers engines front to back.....the first one is one....so in a V pattern, even on one bank, odd the other. The evens are up front. They are paired 1/4, 2/5, and 3/6...all the info was correct there.

 

Is it a knock or a tick? when the engine has been torn down the lifters bleed down and the valvetrain lash goes big, making a tick noise....sometimes even run rough as the valves won't open enough. Run it a bit and the oil pumps them back up.

 

As long as you didn't get much coolant or dirt in it.....vacuumed the valley, changed the oil when done.....you should be fine as far as mechanical damage goes. Sounds like it hasn't been running long enough to do that. The only mechanical thing I would be worried about is mixing up short and long pushrods......but then the pushrod goes into an S shape and the valve bends....as the longer rod pushes the valve open farther, hitting the piston. This could explain the misfire and engine noise, but you said you had the pushrods out and they were okay. Compression was also okay....it would be low if a valve was bent and not sealing.

 

Did you happen to have the injectors and wiring off the rail? If so, do you perhaps have a #2 connector on a #4 injector? Injectors themselves can be swapped, just not the connectors. Are all the o-rings okay as the injectors go into the manifold? Which brings me too....

 

All vacuum ports connected/capped? The top left port for HVAC, the port for the MAP and regulator, and the port for the transmission pressure control. If there is a vacuum leak, you'll hear a sucking noise.

 

Did you reuse the gaskets when you tore it down the second time?

 

So it starts and runs.....just has a rough idle and a tick/knocking noise (which one?).....

 

1) Wire order is correct on the car 2-5 6-3 1-4 (for 3100)

 

2)Yes it is a knock. Yes the valves are ticking too. The knock is a clunk sound. The engine idle will change just slightly when I hear the knock (clunk).

 

3)Push rods are in correct order, have good compression

 

4)I did not disconnect the Injector pigtails, but i did find bad connections.

 

5)All vaccum checks out good

 

6)Did not reuse gaskets, all new. But never put an o-ring on dummy distributor shaft.

 

7)Has tick and knock

 

If I can make a suggestion, you say you get rough idle, this could be due to

1. bad spark plugs/wires (i had 2 new spark plugs (delcos) shit out on me, factory defect)

2. Valve train not working properly,

 

Have you taken the valve covers off and cranked it over to see if all valves are opening

 

for me since i had coolant in the oil, that killed the hydrolic lifters which caused some valves to not open since the lifters were not tightening up, hence rough idle and wierd inconsistent knocking.

I replaced all lifters and it replaced the broken spark plugs and viola, it was purrring.

 

1)Changed spark plugs 3 times now

 

2)All rods move

[KCFITZ78]

Ok, I have some good news for once. The car now idles fine and is back to sounding and feeling like 6 cylinders. The pigtail for the # 3 fuel injector was not connected well and the pigtail for the #5 fuel injector had a wire that was bared. (Used some liquid tape on the wire).

 

Problem #1

Now…… I don’t think I have oil circulating in the engine. Either the oil pump is blocked with all the old crap oil mix or the oil pump is toast. Yes the oil has been changed 3 times. I want to check the oil pressure, but can’t find my gauge (somewhere in my pile of tools). I think I can just pull the oil pressure sensor and check there. Do I really want to pull the oil pan?………… This is not by far an easy task at all is it?????????

 

Problem #2

The engine still has an inconsistent knock. Yes the valves are ticking too, because of no oil but there is also a “clunk†sound. The engine idle will change just slightly when I hear the knock (clunk).

 

Cause?:

No oil circulating?

Borken rod guide/pivot retainer? (Plastic long bar w/ holes for rods that push cam) http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/goldduster318/100_0379e.jpg <-94CutlassSLCoupe's Pic, I'm borrowing it

Spun bearing?

 

Problem #3

I have about 3 to 4 hours of run time on the engine now, and that’s a lot of restarts. Think I may be hurting it?

 

[FordBoy]

Well if you think it has no oil in it then yes ur hurtin it. I would say dont run it to long a min. or 2 a day if ur checking stuff not much longer u dont want to seize it up. Plus i thought u gave up.

[IRONDOG442]

I was right about the injectors causing the misfire, DAMN I'm good!!! Did your oil look like brown thick mud when you drained it. I'd say replace the oil pump or just get rid of the car, sounds like you damaged the lower end of the engine.

[KCFITZ78]

I was right about the injectors causing the misfire, DAMN I'm good!!! Did your oil look like brown thick mud when you drained it. I'd say replace the oil pump or just get rid of the car, sounds like you damaged the lower end of the engine.

 

Yes thank you, but still not still not there.

[Pabz]

You should be able to get it flushed out at a local lube shop.

[turby]

CAPS LOCK? THAT WILL FIX MY CAR? WHERE IS THE CAPS LOCK LOCATED?

 

For someone that needs help you sure are mouthy. If I was the guys trying to help you I'd tell you to figure it out yourself.