RJansen658 Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 @notsoslimshady76 How are you determining it is a misfire on #2? Are you using a spark checker? Pulling a wire? Nothing controls the ICM, it uses inputs from various engine sensors to control ignition timing, IT controls ignition functions. There is no mechanical problem that will cause the ignition system to kill #2 spark only, what I mean is... it has to be either the ICM or the coil or both, nothing else can make it killl only #2 spark. And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a waste spark system? So you should be losing spark on #5 as well. If it is only on one cylinder and you are checking at the plug end of the wire then you more than likely have a wire that increases resistance when hot. It sounds like you need new wires, if you used NEW NEW ICM and coils when you checked earlier... or I suppose you could just swap coils around for a while to test them out. If you do have spark, but it is misfiring for another reason.... I would suspect an injector, and really, if you know you have a bad ful pressure regulator, it should be changed before any misfire diagnosis. For misfires, always remember, any engine, no matter how many computers, how many cylinders, always needs three things to fire properly... Spark, Fuel, Compression... thats al you need to find out first before anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 I had a bad coil in my Beretta that fried my ICM too, I had to replace the coil pack and ICM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted September 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 rjansen: When I unplug the spark wires from the coil packs one at a time, every cyl has a spark except for number 2. The number 5 on the same coil fires every time(tried both the old and the new) does not fire for number 2. I replaced the injectors 2 years ago (all 6, along with a new fuel pump) Plugs and wires were done then too. I'm not sure if its a bad fuel pressure regulator. My car just takes several times to start up which it has never done until this week. So just to recap: I just replaced the ICM with a brand new Advanced Auto one. It behaves just like my old ICM. The first 5 minutes, all cyl fire perfectly. After about 5 minutes, cyl #2 stops firing all together with both a new and old coil pack. Bossman: If that coilpack fried my new ICM, I shall be really annoyed. I will try to put the new coil pack back on. If it still behaves this way, I'll get a JY ICM, and replace all the coils with new ones :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 @notsoslimshady In a wastespark system, whenever a coil fires one tower, it fires the other tower as well. So whenever #5 cylinder is firing, #2 fires at exactly the same time.... always. The ICM has no control over this whatsoever. If the #5 wire is directly grounded out, not only will it cause #5 to misfire but it will also cause #2 to misfire whenever it is hooked to the coil. If you say #5 has spark but #2 doesn't, are you testing #2 with the #5 wire still hooked up? It may be killing #2, I have seen this before. Replace your wires..... 2 years is a long time if you bought cheap wires.... the AC Delco ones are $80 for a reason, aftermarket wires are often of poor construction, and usually people dont route them properly and they end up chafing faster because they aren't routed like the originals. And yes, an old damaged coil can easily fry a new ICM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moto_ty Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 rjansen knows what the hell he's talking about. Grab any repair manual on 2.8,3.1, or 3.4, it explains it all. if you are missing on only cylindar its after the coil pack, do you have spark at the other end of the #2 wire? Maybe you have a broken plug, it happens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted September 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 thank you Rjansen, moto_ty, Jay, Hairdo, Jeff, GP. I replaced plugs and wires. Ran it once with the engine tilted foward, it was fine. As soon as I put it all back, I had a massive exaust leak. It no longer misses, but runs very CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG and smoke poured out of my catalytic convertor. I assume I have a blocked catalytic converor and now feel like an ass. Goodbye money, I will bring this car to the shop on Monday. Only good that came out was I finally installed a Temp Sensor for my new (1994) gauges. Absolutely Amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Hmmmm that is a little hard to understand... Are you saying you disconnected the pipe from the rear manifold when you rocked it forward, and it ran fine when disconnected but not when you connect the pipe? It has an exhaust leak when connected? Are you sure that the "donut" gasket didn't fall off or get squashed funny? Maybe its just chugging because of no back pressure? What do you mean smoke came out of the catalytic convertor? It came out the tailpipe? Or up the firewall from the inlet? What kind of smoke was it? Oil, fuel, or coolant? What did the plug look like that came out of the suspect missing cylinder? You can kinda check your cat yourself. Start the car and check if you get decent pressure out of the tailpipe, both with the engine cold and hot. With the engine hot, reach under the car and see how close you can hold your hand to the convertor. if you cant get 6" from it without it burning you then it is definetly plugged. Sometimes they will even glow red hot when bad. Try to hold a rag over the tailpipe and see if you can make the car stall. If it stalls within 10 secs of putting the rag over the tailpipe the cat may also be bad. I always balk at plugged convertors because they arent common and people blame them a lot.... It is also very true that running an engine with a miss for a while will damage the catalytic convertor permanently, however I think it is more of damage to the convertors ability to convert rather than causing flow problems. Goodbye money, I will bring this car to the shop on Monday. Only good that came out was I finally installed a Temp Sensor for my new (1994) gauges. Don't feel bad.... many years ago now, I replaced the transmission on a Dodge 2500 Van because it wouldn't shift out of 2nd. I checked ignition, fuel, compression, everything before making that call. After I had replaced it, it did exactly the same thing. I worked on it for a week after that and didnt find anything. My boss wanted me to pull the trans back out because he thought I did something wrong.... he was upset as it was costing him money..... when taking it down the second time, I decided to cut the pipe just ahead of the convertor rather than dropping the whole y-pipe, it would make it way easier. When I cut into the pipe there was very small, white, granules in the pipe, filling the chamber ahead of the convertor grid. They had actually been embedded into the grid from the pressure. To this day I have NO IDEA what the hell the granules were or how the hell they got into the system ahead of the convertor. My boss said he had seen it before, I think he was full of shit. Only thing I can think is the were some type of deposit buildup from the exhaust valves.... I will NEVER EVER make that mistake again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Well atleast your car got a super A+ tune up! But atleast you found the problem and are getting it fixed. Now that I think about it, it makes sense. Either way, lets us know how it turns out once its fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted October 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Rjansen: Sorry, I tend to be wordy and not clear when I type. I didn't disconnect the rear manifold pipe. While the motor was still rocked foward, I started the car to make sure I didn't mess anything up in the rear 3 plugs. It ran fine. Once I did the front plugs, I started it up..the engine seemed "chuggy". I then rocked it back to position, it runs worse. I took the car for a 2 1/2 mile drive. It idled steady at 600rpm, but still physically bounced the car. About 1 mile into drive, it ran terribly and barely stayed running or idling consistantly. Little to no power, couldn't get over 3000rpm...etc. Once I parked the car, smoke came out of the cataylytic convertor. Meaning a plume of smoke rose out from under my car, and when I bent under it, it all came from the cat. I tried putting a rag over the tailpipe, it would not stall my car. Even if worst case I forgot to gap one of the front plugs? I don't believe it would have a terrible idle that progressively got worse the warmer the car is. The wires are all on tightly and in the right spot. The Vacuum hose on the right hand side on top of the throttle body is broken. I always thought it was loose, but today I realized it is indeed broken inside the rubber grommet. In the meanwhile, I made three videos of my car...It was mostly for you guys to hear the noises. Sorry they are so big, Idk how to make them smaller. #1, wtf is that chattering at the very end when it stalled? Thats been driving me nuts ever since my car gave me problems. Fuel Pressure Regulator? #2: Just inside the car...nothing special minus the tach #3: Exaust...Ignore what I say about white smoke....it is cold and damp outside , that is condensation As always, thank you in advanced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 That chattering is wierd.... I've never heard it before.... one assumption would be that it is possibly the PCV valve chattering because of the broken vacuum hose, or maybe the IAC going crazy... try taking out the PCV and plugging the hose to see if it stops? The vacuum leak is very loud in the first video, I'd definetly fix that.... I have an extra one if you cannot find one locally. From what you describe now it does indeed seem like the cat... especially if it was hot enough to smoke under the car like that. When you had it rocked forward and running... was exhaust leaking out from the donut gasket? I ask because possibly the donut was pulled away, allowing some exhaust to leak out and allowing the system to breathe better. Then when you rocked it back it sealed back up and restricted the system again. Or the first time you started it up to check the back 3 plugs it warmed up the cat, and when you started it to check the front three it was still warm so flow was restricted. This is all conjecture because I can't really hear the motor running in the vid over the vacuum leak, and its too dark to see if the engine is shaking. Did you have decent pressure out of the tailpipe? Like enough to want to blow your hand off if you try to cover it? Did you check how hot the cat was underneath the car? Its hard to explain how hot it should be, but it really shouldn't get all that hot... As for the engine running worse when its rocked back... that shouldn't make a difference unless my assupmtion about the donut above was correct OR you have been burning coolant and when rocked forward the coolant level is just low enough that it flows in the block to an area it can't suck up any to burn.... I have seen 3.1L's with bad intake gaskets exhibit this problem before. Again, cat is likely if its so hot that its smoking under the car. Even if worst case I forgot to gap one of the front plugs? I don't believe it would have a terrible idle that progressively got worse the warmer the car is. The wires are all on tightly and in the right spot. No an improperly gapped plug would not act like that. I hope this is helping you somewhat... sorry I can't give a better diagnosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted October 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 I dont think exaust was leaking out of the donut gasket. I was leaning over the engine when it died tonight, the chattering comes from what appears to be the EGR. Is that possible? I can tell you the engine shakes only up and down. The pressure out of the tailpipe is at least 2X what it was under my normal driving the past 2 years. I may check the cat tomrrow as it is wet out tonight. I also noticed I was low on coolant, my coolant overflow leaks....so I added coolant right now. The car did start up better after adding coolant. I probably messed up the IAC when I cleaned it more that I think about it. I depressed it with my thumb....As for the vacuum leak...I fixed the hose to hold a vacuum. That did not solve anything. The vacuum hoses I have checked are: 3 way check valve and all lines going to it The hoses ontop of throttle body Cruise Control Vacuum ball The line going to the map sensor I believe is good, bc one day it fell off and gave off a code. I think my car will be sitting in my garage for a while and I'll take my dads car back to school. Btwn work and school I can't really deal with this right now I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJansen658 Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 It is coming from the EGR? That will make it run like crap.... if it is the EGR.... and it only does it at the end when it stalls..... it may be something broken inside the EGR fluttering when the exhaust stops pushing up (from the plugged cat)? I am more and more inclined it is a plugged cat.... are the pipe flange bolts in good condition? If they are then drop the pipe and see how it runs.... not all the way, just loosen them about a 1/4" so it can breathe and see how she runs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted October 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Just another update. After it sat in my garage for several weeks its very very very hard to start and smells like gasoline. I'm replacing the FPR and all vac lines on Thanksgiving. I ran the car with the fuel filter backward.....I know thats bad, but did that clog a fuel line by any chance?? What does running it backward do? Can't wait till I'm done with it and can drive again. The new exaust sounds kinda nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Fixed, thank you all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19Cutlass94 Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Fixed, thank you all Well... what was it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Sorry I updated my first post...I'll copy it over This car has officially kicked my ass and my wallet's. I wound up replacing for the right or wrong of it -Plugs -Wires -ICM -New Exaust front and back (stupidly brought it to shop without welder) -Fuel Pump AGAIN Apparently my pump was installed incorrectly 2 years ago according to my current mechanic. It was on a slight angle and that stressed it to burn out? Is this possible? My fuel filter on backwards didn't help. Either way, this car is my DD again after 2 long months!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Did you use that FPR I sent you man??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ns87 Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 As usual I misdiagnosed the problem..... Idk what my mechanic did with the one you sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Yeah, misdiagnostic sucks and costs a lot of money, but look on the bright side, you shouldn't have to worry about breaking down for a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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