TGP help Slow gas guzzler

[richiewwhite]

I live in north babylon NY its on longisland and I cant afford to throw ignition modules at it if you read it it stated that I had took it back to buy the coils.

[Jeff M]

NY? welcome to the family , sure have a beer, just don't drink all of it or we will kick you out on the front patio

 

If you have been running rich from bad coils then this would foul an o2 (along with a failed crossover pipe) and since an o2 can be as cheap as $20 and we keep saying to do it, then do it?!!

 

I dont have any exhaust leak up front as if i plug the exhaust tips nothing comes out of the engine bay it just pushes the plugs out.

 

Need a mit to catch those plugs flying out of the engine bay

 

Jeff M

[TurboGTU]

MAP stands for Manifold Air Pressure.. <--this is what mesures boost and airflow.

MAT is for manifold AIR temp.

 

Get it. I also have a ford TUrbo 2.3..but I'll be dam if you don't know the difference between the MAP and MAT. My turbo coupe has all 3..VAM, map and mat.

 

Get the O2 sensor, because the bad coils Killed it. BUT you also have this "wall" at WOT...doesn't the ECM ignore the O2 at WOT Jeff? VE tables only?

 

Please try the light again on the coils..or timming light on the wires by the spark plugs.

Make sure you don't have Owl piss gas in the car.

Did you check to see if you turbo is restricted by the intake side...like callapsing intake hose, loose or poped turbo hoses.

You'd also want to run the car with the CAT hanging..maybe it not cloged..but its just about to be because of the coils.

THese test won't cost you a dime...the exception of the new O2.

BTW..hows the oil?

Hows the trans OIL?

 

Yes..this is frustrating...but it was also gone trough hell..so you have to go thrugh hell to bring it back..

[Jeff M]

MAP stands for Manifold Air Pressure.. <--this is what mesures boost and airflow.

MAT is for manifold AIR temp.

 

Get it. I also have a ford TUrbo 2.3..but I'll be dam if you don't know the difference between the MAP and MAT

 

 

 

My turbo coupe has all 3..VAM, map and mat.

 

:shock: All three??, wow, shit that would be fun to work on wonder what the tables in the chip look like on this boy

 

Get the O2 sensor, because the bad coils Killed it. BUT you also have this "wall" at WOT...doesn't the ECM ignore the O2 at WOT Jeff? VE tables only?

 

Yes it ignores the O2 soon as you hit zero psi, but it remembers the Block Learn Multiplier/Fuel Trim, and if the crossover pipe is bad it will have learned the false leanness from this and passed it on. The wall at 3,500 to 4,500 rpms is common and quite a few cracked OEM pipe owners have experienced this but not all.

 

Did you check to see if you turbo is restricted by the intake side...like callapsing intake hose, loose or poped turbo hoses.

 

Very good point, I totaly forgot the good old sucking the rubber intake pipe closed from a restricted air filter :oops:

 

Yes..this is frustrating...but it was also gone trough hell..so you have to go thrugh hell to bring it back..

 

No truer words were spoken 8) And the TGP rewards those who care for it very well

 

Jeff M

[richiewwhite]

I have had a few TC's and none have had a MAP they have a BAP? maybe this is what you are refering too. But the thing that calculates the airflow is the VAM.

 

Anywho, the intake side of the turbo is not sucking shut as I have a spring setup in there so it can never suck shut.

 

I didnt think O2 sensors were so cheap but I will try it. Also if it ignores the O2 sensor at WOT why would this be my problem when it only hits the wall at WOT? My oil was recently changed. and my transaxle fluid was flushed and a new filter about 20k ago and is still nice and pink. Im not sure if it is still a gas guzzler with these new coils as I havent gone to far with it since it was such a gas guzzler. Im going to take it to the store which is pretty far and see how the gas mileage is. I was also reading through the stacks of TGP books I have on how to test the MAP and O2 sensor. So im going to get the multimeter out and give it a try. Im also going to get it back on the snapon scanner and see what tps voltage is and make sure that the O2 sensor voltage drops below .35 when I unplug it. I wish I had spare parts such as ECM coils wouldve helped too but Im trying to fix it without replacing parts that need replaced. The expensive parts anyways.

[Jeff M]

I don't care if you got a spring in there, every stock air filter setup TGP/TSTE has one in the hoses not just yours so you are not telling us anything we don't already know and they collapse with restricted stock air filters, but since you just don't want to listen/get your car fixed/want it to be a POS, then I am out of here

 

Jeff M

[pontiac6ksteawd]

Im with Jeff on this one. So far every issue I have had with my TGP that I have asked for advice on, Jeff has been dead on. Thats why I am replacing the O2 sensor, x-over, oil return line, chip, t-stat all with new products. Cars are expensive creatures, whether they are turbo or not. And sometimes you have to spend money on them to get the desired result. And if we are going to keep telling you that you have these problems, but you dont want to "spend the money" to get it fixed, then theres nothing else we can do for you...

[Prospeeder]

Yea, seriously, listen to Jeff M, Hes owned, worked, studied, these cars for 15 years, he is a guy on these cars, dont thing were lying to u, and there is NO free way to fix these cars, now Get the o2 sensor, the reason is cheap is cause there not the heated ones like new cars have that are like 50 and 60 dollars, so listen up!

[richiewwhite]

quit ya bitchin~ I put a big spring in there real big not no stocker. It is a hose with ribs it looks like and maybe it has tiny springs on the ribs but that is not where it collaspes if it were to. It collapses on the flat part without the ribs. Mine can no longer do that due to this big ass spring. Next is up I ran out of gas/ gas guage at almost 1/4 tank so I put gas in it at the nearest gas station and started it up. This car doesnt prime right for some reason and somtimes it will take multiple times to prime. After that. I get in the car and beat on it. It goes all the way up the rpm band and then shifts. I was happy. But it feels slower then it before when it used to hit a wall. Now it climbs all the way up but its not as quick. Still quick I guess just not in the upper rpm. But no wall whatsoever. Any ideas? Im thinking maybe it had bad gas in the bottom of the tank? and was pulling timing.? Maybe the pulling timing was teh wall? I dont know I gotta get on the scanner and find out. It seems to surge in the upper rpm band. Ive read through these books and it says the fpr reg is set to 47psi? Is that right? Maybe I dont have enough pressure to the injectors?

[Jeff M]

Sheese guys, don’t embarrass me :oops: I do appreciate the nod 8) , I have learned a lot on my own/last 15 years, and quite a bit in emails working with people like on the message boards 8) but in much more vast numbers and at times 30 to 50 emails with each owner :shock: learning more as we work and learning from their ideas as well , and I have learned on here from quite a few literate with our cars :!: , so I really can’t take all the credit, it’s a collective of knowledge, its all going to some time (one of MANY lists of things this important to do for me/others actually) be put on my web site so I don’t have to keep reciting it, and making those on the message boards and in emails wait for me to get to them :oops: .

 

Thanks again guys, I have to commend the great efforts of the many on the TGP message boards over the last several years that are much more avid then they realize now, I know this since I have been on these TGP message boards since they started and the conversations are addressed more and more by our numerous members instead of just the first few like Chris A, David Zug, Shawn Linn, Jim W and others, us old guys , this has made my life easier .

 

One last thing for our new stubborn boy 8) if someone had to add a stiffer spring to keep the intake tube from collapsing , this is not a fix, the problem is not address/choking the engine, and will only results in a slow car (seems that is what was said ) and a destroyed turbo on this POS 8) . So pay me now of pay me later, thing is all this help is free though :shock: unless you throw in a thanks/bone for the dogs but so far I feel starved even on that :?

 

Jeff M

[TurboGTU]

Block Learn Multiplier/Fuel Trim

I forgot about that.

 

APS(atmostphere pressure sensor), MAP ...its the same..pressure sensor...different name.

With the car off/key on...the map voltage should be 2.5volts + or - .4-.1 volts depending on elevation and volt meter. (ha..the dam car does have altutued compensating at boot...so much for the 3bar ).

 

I still rememberd when I was at the track and the turbo decited to suck the factory intake hose spring in... :shock: WAS NOT FUN. I had to replace the compressor wheel. Remove the hose that goes from the filter and the turbo. and install a pipe and two hoses with clamps if anything..and on the other side..a pipe. But run it without it just for test.

 

Could it be that your EGR is sticking...Grap a flat tip driver and pray the base up and it should snap back in. It should feel a little tense but moving freely. IT should not stick at all. Is it sitting flat?

When you replaced the fuel pump..you woun't happen to put that POS fuel damppener in there...(canister looking thing inline with fuel pump)..that can leak. It won't show the low pressure when the engine doen't need the fuel IE..just idle..rev limit...but at boost it will show a dramatic fuel pressure drop. This can also explain your fuel primming issue.

 

Also...like ford turbos..the IGnition can be a little moody about "aftermaket" parts. Are all OE replacements? Stock delco plugs? Gap? If your using needle point platnums..they might need more gap than stock. DID your check the "BAD COIL" plugs out...the non-firing condition can make a good plug go bad in a hurry.

 

WHAT ELSE? Thats about it for most commen problems with thiese cars...unless someones has a Voodo dall of your car...

[Jeff M]

Block Learn Multiplier/Fuel Trim

I forgot about that.

Well....I forgot about the intake hose sucking closed :oops: And if it sucks closed then whatever air filter is being used sucks I agree, and I just (on a clean paved road/3 miles test max) pull off the hose at the turbo and go test things, most fun part is when you are unhooking a stock air filter box, weeeee car is so much stronger when it can breath, then its easy to understand we need an upgraded air filter even if its gettting some warm air at times, far lesser evil!!!

 

Could it be that your EGR is sticking...Grap a flat tip driver and pray the base up and it should snap back in. It should feel a little tense but moving freely. IT should not stick at all.

I found the EGR Spring is not too stiff and you can use your fingers to push it up and let it snap close/test it is closing like you said 8)

 

WHAT ELSE? Thats about it for most commen problems with thiese cars...unless someones has a Voodo dall of your car...

I think you are right, I bet its his ex-girl freind that has the Vodoo Doll, she was mad he would never listen to her when she talked

 

Jeff M

[Prospeeder]

oh shit, theres a spring in the piping that can get sucked in :!: is that uncommon or is there a way to prevent it? cause i dont need my turbo being wasted cause of that!

[Jeff M]

oh shit, theres a spring in the piping that can get sucked in :!: is that uncommon or is there a way to prevent it? cause i dont need my turbo being wasted cause of that!

 

You funny 8) I like to wait until this happens to owners so I can hear what blew up later just kidding!

 

I was thinking and it was in late 1990 when I had had my new TGP for about 5 months, and it started to feel slow, so I figured out a way to bypass the fuel cut and control the boost and ohhh yeaaa. Then not that long after when I was passing someone and was boosting good, then all of a sudden nothing :shock: no power, shit I was heading for oncoming traffic, fast off the gas and fast back on I was able to accel and finish my passing, got home and looked at everything, all looked good but the intake hose had some dents from being sucked in so hard, so yanked off the hose for a test/no (stock) air filter and that is when I found how bad the stock air filter setup was (filter was new/replaced at 5,000 miles when I started feeling it was slower/old one already getting plugged with never driving on dirt roads :shock: ), it was faster yet again without any stock air filter, sweeeeet, and since there was better help back then at K&N I got the RU1810 (before the tight fitting/bigger is Priority 1 RU1390 came out 8) ), then all was good from then on.

 

No big deal story, just some old history I thought I would share.

 

Jeff M

[RareGMFan]

Not to get off topic, but I saw a true CAI set up for the TGP on I forget which site a while back. Do you still have those, Jeff? And if so, how much would one run?

[Jeff M]

The setup I put together has a K&N Air Filter Mod'd for the Custom Crankcase Breather Tube I have, it sits in the engine bay right off the turbo. The CAI that you are thinking about is one that was done a while back by I think Jeff Ianitello, it worked good but think it still had some things left to work out with water management. I think only one TGP owners had this CAI setup, it was priced at $269 complete, lots of parts made up to get the piping over to the new air filter/air filter box, enough parts that I felt was priced in the range for what was made. Seen many CAI boxes for F-Bodies, trucks etc that ran that much money and those were mass produced plastic CAI Boxes (good stuff mind you) so cheaper to make then a custom one, and these sell to a tons of car and truck owners so the manufacturer can spread their initial costs out to achieve payback faster than for our limited run of cars, and with one sold so far, was a total loss for that effort, too bad.

 

Jeff M

[TurboGTU]

 

THe intake hose springs are found in turbo fords .

[Jeff M]

 

THe intake hose springs are found in turbo fords .

 

Damn engineers they must think owners will forget to do maintenance on their cars and run with a dirty air filter, hoping these springs will keep the hose from collapsing too easy, now how often would that happen . Same with so many things on a car, engineers have to design for the worst, till we make it better 8) .

 

Jeff M

[RareGMFan]

I think only one TGP owners had this CAI setup, it was priced at $269 complete, lots of parts made up to get the piping over to the new air filter/air filter box, enough parts that I felt was priced in the range for what was made. Seen many CAI boxes for F-Bodies, trucks etc that ran that much money and those were mass produced plastic CAI Boxes (good stuff mind you) so cheaper to make then a custom one, and these sell to a tons of car and truck owners so the manufacturer can spread their initial costs out to achieve payback faster than for our limited run of cars, and with one sold so far, was a total loss for that effort, too bad.

 

Yeah, I agree while it's on the expensive side, for what Thrasher or ZZP charge for for a plastic/acrylic box and some tubing (still not a true FWI), that it wasn't too bad. Of course, I can't see too many TGP owners forking over that kind of money for just an intake, either. It's too bad. Valiant effort, but all for not.

 

How much would custom work like that run? Like to have a shop take some piping, and run it/bend it like you want to make a true CAI?

[Jeff M]

How much would custom work like that run? Like to have a shop take some piping, and run it/bend it like you want to make a true CAI?

 

Well, someone who has access to the level of equipment to make the custom bends and lengths might get by cheaper, and are most likely to come on here saying the $269 is stupid over priced . But for some company to do the work, has to have the smarts, determination (to not make money ), the tools to make things up, a source for the supplies to make this all up with tubing, clamps, hoses, welding/or more clamps and hoses, get some plastic boxs made up to fit the area and made for the access needed with the supply air pipe, and fitment of the air filter, and allow it to come apart for air filter cleaning, I am getting out of breath here . So you see the costs will add up when a final product is made. If a company can make up thousands of these they can spread the cost of the designing, man-hours, property tax, business insurance, employee health care and other benefits, machines/equipment, maybe lower prices on the parts to make it from large ($$ investment) bulk orders, such things like this help lower the price but for limited/custom runs, price goes up to offset the costs of construction. When I looked at an air filter upgrade for my wife’s Benz they ran from $800 for a starter to $3,000 for a carbon fiber monster, mainly because the limited numbers of Benz's made and the fewer who want to mod, then that stupid name Mercedes Benz causes the price to go up , reminds me of chips for MB and BMW and Audis, they started at $495 and went up, with gains of a tenth of a second to only a few more tenths .

 

So I thought too that the price of this very limited run performance kit was in line, maybe even less as compared to the same sold in the thousands to like F-Bodies and Trucks (I keep using these 2 since I have info from SEMA that shows these as very common American targets).

 

Jeff M