Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 10 hours ago, Cutlass350 said: Geez! I *100% hand code*, google.com, my website, google.com, all by, google.com, myself - no one, google.com, else. I personally answer, google.com, every person's, google.com, question myself. I don't, google.com, charge, google.com, for the, google.com, information that , google.com, I provide , google.com, FREE of charge , google.com, to everyone. And, not one, google.com, freaking person, google.com, ever says, google.com, "thank you" , google.com, you saved , google.com, my , google.com, life , google.com, you , google.com, are , google.com, the , google.com, best , google.com, thing , google.com, ever , google.com, google.com, ,google.com, google.com, google.com, google.com, google.com. https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3123-OBD1-Code-Reader/dp/B000EVU8C0/ ~$30 https://csr.innova.com/Content/Manual/Innova/010412_3123_93-0102_RevD_Manual_English_Final_downloadable.pdf https://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP9001-GM-Code-Scanner/dp/B0006V2BHI ~$30 https://actron.com/sites/default/files/chart_16152.pdf Btw, the following may also work, the manual isn't clear. https://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP9690-AutoScanner-Enhanced-vehicles/dp/B011ICD2WQ And, there's always the China clone GM TECH-II Scanner for (~$300-$500). https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=GM+TECH-II+Scanner Good Luck! Those first two inexpensive ones are just $30 paperclip jumpers. As for the other ones, I'm not ready to invest several hundred dollars in an OBD1 code scanner right now. Thanks tho.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 Change out the fuel filter. No change. Here is a video showing the fuel pressure at the rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 When I was changing the fuel filter I noticed that some critter had nibbled the lines to the vapor canister back under the rear bumper. I was hoping that might be part if the problem, but when I put new lines on it didn't help at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 Have you tried ohm'ng out the injectors yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 I broke down and pulled off the intake manifold. Not great not terrible, The hardest part was the damn clamps on the coolant lines to the throttle body. Here are my results. Numbers are in ohms, left is front of engine. So clearly I have two wonky ones. Would this completely explain the issue I'm having? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55trucker Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Sigurd Jarlson said: When I was changing the fuel filter I noticed that some critter had nibbled the lines to the vapor canister back under the rear bumper. I was hoping that might be part if the problem, but when I put new lines on it didn't help at all. Shouldn't normally be an issue, but what that damage will do is open the evap lines to atmosphere. After driving the car & shutting off the engine one can get a smell of gas fumes from the rear. If the evap solenoid is still functioning properly the engine will now suck raw air into the intake when the engine is off idle, that can cause a lean condition when in open loop the ECM can't cover off. The ECM closes the solenoid at idle. If the solenoid has failed it stays open all the time. If the vacuum hose from the intake to the solenoid is rotted the engine will draw in air all the time. I asked this earlier.....Are all of the vacuum hoses original? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55trucker Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sigurd Jarlson said: So clearly I have two wonky ones. Would this completely explain the issue I'm having? Thanks. The injectors are high impedance (12 ohms), #4 & #7 are not looking happy. What I'm seeing here would not shut them all down as a group. Edited October 3, 2020 by 55trucker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 46 minutes ago, 55trucker said: Shouldn't normally be an issue, but what that damage will do is open the evap lines to atmosphere. After driving the car & shutting off the engine one can get a smell of gas fumes from the rear. If the evap solenoid is still functioning properly the engine will now suck raw air into the intake when the engine is off idle, that can cause a lean condition when in open loop the ECM can't cover off. The ECM closes the solenoid at idle. If the solenoid has failed it stays open all the time. If the vacuum hose from the intake to the solenoid is rotted the engine will draw in air all the time. I asked this earlier.....Are all of the vacuum hoses original? The vacuum hoses are original, but aside from the ones to the evap canister that the critter nibbled on, they look excellent. And I replaced those with no change in my symptoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 46 minutes ago, 55trucker said: The injectors are high impedance (12 ohms), #4 & #7 are not looking happy. What I'm seeing here would not shut them all down as a group. I guess I'll change those two out, but it sucks that I have to button everything back up to see if any of my work has fixed the issue. Since I have access to the fuel pressure regulator, could that failing be the cause of the issue? As long as I have the IM off, I may as well change it. But I'd hate to do a bunch of work, button the IM back up and still have the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55trucker Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) To test the FPR one connects a vacuum pump to it and attempts to pull vacuum from it. Do two tests, one AT the FPR & a second at the throttle body port thru the vacuum hose to the FPR. If you cannot pull vacuum that holds there's an issue. Edited October 4, 2020 by 55trucker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55trucker Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Sigurd Jarlson said: The vacuum hoses are original, but aside from the ones to the evap canister that the critter nibbled on, they look excellent. And I replaced those with no change in my symptoms. What about the short rubber hoses that are on the ends of some of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 1 minute ago, 55trucker said: What about the short rubber hoses that are on the ends of some of them? they all look good. No dry rot. No cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 IMHO, the 4 might be enough to bring down that entire bank. They don't need to be a dead short. In any rate, those both need to be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) Too late now, but you can ohm each bank of injectors without plenum removal(injector harness toward the computer). You won't get individual results that way, but can tell if something is wrong. Each bank is wired in parallel so you're looking at three injectors at a time if you ohm from that connector. Using your results of 13ohms and assuming all injectors should be 13ohms, you should see a reading of roughly 4.33ohms when ohm testing each bank. With one that's nearly shorted, your reading would drop(13 + 13 + 4 for example would roughly be 2.5 ohms) showing there is an issue before you remove the plenum. Either way in your case, the plenum would need to be removed because you definitely have two injectors that need replacing. edit: Just remembered this old video on the subject above. ScannerDanner on yt is an excellent resource for auto electrical diag if you've never came across him. The video shows the connector I mentioned above. Edited October 4, 2020 by mfewtrail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 Thanks. Parts are on order. I guess I'll do the LIM gasket while I'm under there, and this gives me an opportunity to do the back valve cover which has an annoying leak. Any other recommended work while I'm under here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 Oil pump/"distributor" O-ring drive seal if it's never been done before. But I'd imagine it's already leaking if it was never replaced. I actually just searched and found I did this write-up 16 years ago, but it was before I had my own web hosting so the pictures got hosed. The write-up on v6z24 works just as well - https://www.v6z24.com/howto/oring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 1 hour ago, digitaloutsider said: Oil pump/"distributor" O-ring drive seal if it's never been done before. But I'd imagine it's already leaking if it was never replaced. I actually just searched and found I did this write-up 16 years ago, but it was before I had my own web hosting so the pictures got hosed. The write-up on v6z24 works just as well - https://www.v6z24.com/howto/oring Thanks. I was thinking about that since when I asked about replacing the rear valve cover gasket on my 2.8L 1989 Celebrity over on the A-Body forum someone suggested as long as I'm under the IM I should change that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55trucker Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 Since pulling up the rail means unseating all the injectors replace all of the O-rings as well, don't take a chance on using the old O-rings again on the injectors not replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 34 minutes ago, 55trucker said: Since pulling up the rail means unseating all the injectors replace all of the O-rings as well, don't take a chance on using the old O-rings again on the injectors not replaced. Good point. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontiac6ksteawd Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 On 10/3/2020 at 9:04 PM, digitaloutsider said: IMHO, the 4 might be enough to bring down that entire bank. They don't need to be a dead short. In any rate, those both need to be replaced. Dont forget, with temperature, the ohm will change. So what is 4ohm at room temp, good drop to... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 Just out of curiosity, is it mainly the 90s 3100s that are known for LIM gasket failures, or does my 1989 3.1L fit in with the engines that are known for that? If that isn't a failing particular to my year and the issue seems to be absent, I would love if I could reasonable skip changing the LIM gasket. Seems like a real PITA. I understand the prudence of doing it while I'm right there, but if it's not entirely necessary, it would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontiac6ksteawd Posted October 8, 2020 Report Share Posted October 8, 2020 Out of every 2.8/3.1 I have ever owned (which has been quite a few), I have never had a LIM failure. Oil leaks for sure (hey its a GM, it doesnt leak, it marks its territory!), but never a LIM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, pontiac6ksteawd said: Out of every 2.8/3.1 I have ever owned (which has been quite a few), I have never had a LIM failure. Oil leaks for sure (hey its a GM, it doesnt leak, it marks its territory!), but never a LIM. That's reassuring since I now own a 1989 2.8L Celebrity in addition to this Regal. Over at the A-Body forum it's nothing but horror stories about 3100 LIM gaskets.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55trucker Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Don't confuse the LHO engine with the L82, both are a 3.1 but the L82(3100) is the 2nd generation of the engine. It's the plastic gaskets that GM used inside the L82/LA1 that caused issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Jarlson Posted October 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 38 minutes ago, 55trucker said: Don't confuse the LHO engine with the L82, both are a 3.1 but the L82(3100) is the 2nd generation of the engine. It's the plastic gaskets that GM used inside the L82/LA1 that caused issues. Thanks for the clarification. Looking at the 3100 LIM writeups on other forums really makes me appreciate the simplicity of my 3.8L Cieras, even if I did have to change out those crappy plastic cam gears on both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.