SleeperRed90TGp Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Jeff I JUST COULDN'T HELP MYSELF. You have to admit it was a pretty straight forward thread about cams and then we get this oratory on turbos. Sounded like an advertisment to me. Jud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Ok...I've studied those post more...OK. So with the "better" cam...the back presure would still limit the power right? What if decamed and boost friendly overlap/split pattern?...Would that benifit a "stock" setup. Im going mild. Better flowing heads, bumbed up peak about a few rpm, bigger turbo(exhaust more now). My goal is to evacuate the cylinder of as much used exhaust as posible so the intake stroke could have more useble conbustible power. To try and equalize the exhaust cylinder presure to the preturbo presure..(I know it isn't posible to create vacume at about TDC exhaust during boost...so theres still exhaust presure when the exhaust valve closes and the pistons at top going to intake stroke {My thery is that as stock when the exhaust closes..or before the intake opens...the cylinder still has way more exhaust presure than outside at preturbo}). More fuel/air=more power...right?. Well thats my goal. I just don't like the stock cam for boost...its so pethetic (overlap, splitpattern). But you said even with ported heads on a stock setup...there was 3 times the exhaust presure.........DAMMM!. Curtis has the same issue cuz of the way better cam. So then when upgrading the cam...upgrade the turbine side...if posible..biger manafolds and x-over to match cam? Well I really do think the turbine side is too small (oxygen senser could be at the dp too, its in the way)and the x-over could use bigger pipes...the manafolds look good to me. On the lube part...I will try that mod. Do you restrict the flow of it to keep it from over spraying? Any decrease in oil presure at idle? I also am keeping my stock spring presures. I would like to swap to 3100/3400 behive springs (maybe only exhaust side). They prob have lighter seat presures without a diminish in open presure. That will prob keep the cam alive at high rpms when Im in the mood.... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Jeff I JUST COULDN'T HELP MYSELF. You have to admit it was a pretty straight forward thread about cams and then we get this oratory on turbos. Sounded like an advertisment to me. Jud Well…… In regards to advertising I can tell you I am not real interested in selling a chip for every type of cam people are getting or have :shock: , even if one cam becomes the preferred cam to use as it will take a while before I could do a chip for it, and then since the number of people verses the time to test a proper chip would never be compensated, it may never happen for me, someone else can tackle that one. But when and if I find a turbine housing that will get rid of the exhaust back pressure problem is something I am sure no one will complain if I offer or sell 8) . You are right, the topic was cams, but like you can see now it was just that one thing leads to another even if Curtis had not made the same point on BP, it’s the whole equation of air flowing in and out of an engine (and turbo etc) that you have to look at if you want to be successful, and I would like others to be successful . Sorry if the info I gave sounded like I was changing the subject to offer a turbo part instead, but thanks for asking though . Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddux31 Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 jud, my lifter had a convex shape but my camshaft also had the curve to match it. I'm not real experienced in this cam talk so I'll try to explain. the camshaft lobe has this profile look " ( " as well as the lifter, so I'm assuming that the lifter just stoppped rotating. I may try the oiling add on pictured above and go the longer line with the tee's on it route. I'm glad that I located this post because before I was having no luck talking to people about the cam failure. The fact that this side of the engine and the #10 lobe in particular have failed on this many people tells me that it is definitely the oiling issue. I don't have much in performance upgrades but I was driving my car really hard at a raceway the week before mine failed. Hope to update soon with some pictures of my motor rebuild/install. First I need to get the dig camera and Christmas out of the way and then 3 weeks of vacation/tgp work. Dale M. Omaha, Ne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 TurboGTU, I would say your analogy is pretty much right on. The only problem is how to get there and what do you want to do. There isn’t a lot of info on turbo cams. I have spent months gathering info and mostly from ricer sites and GN sites and anything I could read about cams. I have spent over 2 hour with crane on the phone, 1 hour with comp, and various other cam tech’s. The conclusion that I got is do it yourself. I got so many of this and so many of that that I gave up. The came I got is as close to what I wanted as I could find except for the overlap. I think its too much but believe me I don’t know shit compared to the cam grues. I just wish they would all get together and say the same thing. Quote But you said even with ported heads on a stock setup...there was 3 times the exhaust pressure.........I doub't that. It would take one hell ov a port job to do that. I don't believe thats attainable. I didn’t say that and I don’t have a clue. Don’t have the instrumentation to perform those test and don’t plan to do it. In sizing things I went by what the engine should flow. I would say the xover is the most restrictive part of our exhaust and the intake (upper plenum)is the worst of the intake. On the lube, yes I restricted the flow with a pair of vise grips set so as not to crush the tubing closed. It’s a squirt but a very small one. Oil pressure was un-changed. I am running the melling hv pump with all clearances standard but the side clearance on the rods at .028. I’ts between 40 and 45# at idle. Springs from a 3100. I would check the #’s. Roller lifters usually require more #’s. I don’t really know what they are rated at. Jeff M, No I thought it was a turbo advertisement for a kit you were working on not chips. I think we all know your position on chips. Oh a good turbo without going to France (don’t Buy from them) is the Garrett GT28 twin ball bearing. T28 turbine with a T3 compressor housing and a s60-1 impeller. Good for between 350 and 400 hp. Problem is that there banjo fittings instead of tube fitting an they are flanged inlet and outlet rather than hose fittings so they require an adapter. Find a front end with hose outlets an you have got it made. No ned to get a new casting made cause we couldn't afford it. Big$$$$$. I know. :? maddux31, Yea would like to see a picture. I think you flattened your came. If you had the same problem as I did you visually couldn’t see any difference on the cam. Just a concave area in the middle of the lifter as wide as the cam lobe. If you had to really pry your lifter out or twist it out you flattened the cam. Problem is that once the lifter stops turning I know of no way to get it going again. They can rebore and sleeve chevy lifters but the tooling won’t fit our motors. I am running the same came with a new lifter. Got 1k on it so I just keep an ear to it. I thought the solution was a new cam and lifters but it didn’t work. The last cam that the lifter didn’t rotate on went 3k miles and most likely would have gone further. I just happened to spot it and decided to change them since the came was covered by Crane. TurboGTU, Just came back from your area. Geronimo, near Seguin and I see TurboZ24 is from Tex but don’t know where. Merry Xmas guys, Jud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddux31 Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 jud, I said in my previous post that the cam was shaped to match the lifter so i'm noticing much difference in the #10 lobe and all the other lobes. there was no similarity to the other flat lobes and the #10. the lobe was allmost completely gone, as in round and not oblong for any lift on the lifter/push rod. lifter came out very easy, no gauling or seizing to the hole in the block, not even a sign of heat stress. Something to think about is this: all oil companies will be required to eliminate the little remaining molydelsulfite (spelling?), which is the anti-abrasion compound; and the remaining zinc, helps keep wrist pins from gauling in pistons and helps your valve guides. O.E.S. will be the best thing left (made by GM) to insure a truely friction free break-in from what I understand, this was all told to me today by the gentleman doing my machine work on my block. He also is of the opinion that if the #10 lobe is going bad on all these cams, there could have been a tooling problem on the blocks when they were machined at GM. He's been building motors for 35 years (mostly GM) and seems to be very knowledgable. Most of his work is with sbc's and 3.8L buick turbos. He is going to look into a roller cam/lifter setup and is talking to ? Iskenderine(last name spelling) of the ISKY (spelling?) cam company from long ago about all of this tonight. You know somebody has been around when they can call a man up that is that knowledgable in this kind of stuff. I'm leaving all the work up to and including the cam installation to him then I will take over and hope for the best. Try to get some photos up within a week. Lots of goodies to show from 6 months of buying and buying and buying. P.S. I bought my tgp in the Houston area back in March. Previous owner was Dave Yeung in town that Johnson Space Center is located in. Can't remember name of town right off hand. He worked for NASA and took real good care of the car. 1 owner 62,000 miles when I bought it. I'm rambling. Dale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalor Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Jeff M, No I thought it was a turbo advertisement for a kit you were working on not chips. I think we all know your position on chips. Oh a good turbo without going to France (don’t Buy from them) is the Garrett GT28 twin ball bearing.T28 turbine with a T3 compressor housing and a s60-1 impeller. Good for between 350 and 400 hp. Problem is that there banjo fittings instead of tube fitting an they are flanged inlet and outlet rather than hose fittings so they require an adapter. Find a front end with hose outlets an you have got it made. No ned to get a new casting made cause we couldn't afford it. Big$$$$$. I know. :? ALL HAIL THE DISCO POTATO!!! http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-004&Category_Code=ACS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Jeff M, No I thought it was a turbo advertisement for a kit you were working on not chips. I think we all know your position on chips. Oh a good turbo without going to France (don’t Buy from them) is the Garrett GT28 twin ball bearing. T28 turbine with a T3 compressor housing and a s60-1 impeller. Good for between 350 and 400 hp. Problem is that there banjo fittings instead of tube fitting an they are flanged inlet and outlet rather than hose fittings so they require an adapter. Find a front end with hose outlets an you have got it made. No ned to get a new casting made cause we couldn't afford it. Big$$$$$. I know. :? Jud Nothing wrong with an advertisement (was not one at this time), or the more detailed info regarding BP from more air flow either from bigger turbo or heads or cam, I know the Tato all to well, already tried a T28 wheel, still too much back pressure, really need to work on the turbine housing for a bigger A/R, which the DP has a .84 verses our smaller turbine housing and a .68 A/R. Until I am quoted for the turbine housing re-tooling, the jury will be out, but you have to think about the vastness of the application and benefits to TGP owners (Stock or Chip'd or Engine Mods, etc), either this Tato for truly big $$ and custom connections and pipes, or retrofit the bolt-back–on upgraded TGP turbo with a new turbine housing for…..less, at least that is the plan and will know more facts when the time comes. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalor Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Nothing wrong with an advertisement (was not one at this time), or the more detailed info regarding BP from more air flow either from bigger turbo or heads or cam, I know the Tato all to well, already tried a T28 wheel, still too much back pressure, really need to work on the turbine housing for a bigger A/R, which the DP has a .84 verses our smaller turbine housing and a .68 A/R. Until I am quoted for the turbine housing re-tooling, the jury will be out, but you have to think about the vastness of the application and benefits to TGP owners (Stock or Chip'd or Engine Mods, etc), either this Tato for truly big $$ and custom connections and pipes, or retrofit the bolt-back–on upgraded TGP turbo with a new turbine housing for…..less, at least that is the plan and will know more facts when the time comes. Jeff M The DP is pretty much a straight bolt-in with regards to the intercooler piping & downpipe. The compressor inlet takes a 3" pipe(not a big deal to those with a k&N), and the compressor outlet is 2"(that's the same as ours last time I checked). The only thing I'm not sure about the is oil/water lines that run into it. I think an oil feed restriction is recommended due to the nature that it's a ball-bearing unit, but I am unsure if they use banjo fittings as I"ve never seen one in person. Are you sure you know the turbine wheel that the DP utilizes?? It uses a brand new wheel(NS111), not the wheels that are standard on the market since the 80's. It also has a divider wall in between the wastegate and turbine that is supposed to aid in the reduction of backpressure. One of these days I'm going to find a standard T28 turbine map and compare them. 8) http://fp.enter.net/~nicolette/images/turboGP/gt28Rvst25.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 The DP is pretty much a straight bolt-in with regards to the intercooler piping & downpipe. The compressor inlet takes a 3" pipe(not a big deal to those with a k&N), and the compressor outlet is 2"(that's the same as ours last time I checked). The only thing I'm not sure about the is oil/water lines that run into it. I think an oil feed restriction is recommended due to the nature that it's a ball-bearing unit, but I am unsure if they use banjo fittings as I"ve never seen one in person. Are you sure you know the turbine wheel that the DP utilizes?? It uses a brand new wheel(NS111), not the wheels that are standard on the market since the 80's. It also has a divider wall in between the wastegate and turbine that is supposed to aid in the reduction of backpressure. One of these days I'm going to find a standard T28 turbine map and compare them. 8) Thanks for the info, hope people don’t mind we stole this cam thread for other breathing improvements/turbos, but from the work I did, they are related. The DP has a great turbine wheel, Garrett has been sitting on its ass like many large companies having it too good for too long, but now has done some great research to come up with the Ballistic now GT Series (or other way around?). With the regular T28 wheel I tested I was looking to see better than I did/less back pressure but that did not happen, the GT turbine wheel will be better but tests will show just how much with this engine and/or cam and head upgrades. The efficiency of the new GT Series turbine wheel will allow some big compressor wheels to get moving from small 4 cylinders, some V6s blowing exhaust on the driver/turbine wheel side. And hopes are since the turbine wheel is more efficient at using the exhaust energy, that there is less back pressure which is also very good! 8) You are right from what I hear too, the ball bearings want a little less oil pressure/flow, and the bango fittings, though turbo sellers like these more than our brake line/flange types, which I have never had a problem working with and using over the years, never had any leaks and goes together just fine, maybe tight fitment access is better with a banjo compared to the TGP and I agree with that!! I also love the divider wall separating the wastegate exhaust from blowing against the turbine exhaust flow, seen more like this, smart idea and simple when casting to just add that piece! The DP is stated as “Good for about 350 hp†and from the turbo tuners I know, past 350 hp will require some expert tuning i.e. running lean enough to make max power but right on the ragged edge of too lean/detonation, but a solid 300+ is excellent for this size turbo. If I remember, someone had pics showing to fit the DP (or some other T28) in required elongating one down pipe hole, not too much effort there, but from my supplier he says the downpipe bolt configuration is a bit off but I need him to confirm before we drop that as an option! Enough blowing in the wind, have a Merry Christmas guys, Santa here has a lot of presents to deliver so I am getting busy Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Please don't shoot me :shock: I know this post is older than hell but SleeperRed90TGp's pic caught my eye. On the TSTE cam I just toasted, same thing as most have been saying... lost lobe 10 entirely. As of right now I'm installing a stock replacement (and new lifters) but want to throw in a Crane 260 in a few months. I'll also be adding 1.6 roller rockers when I install the OEM spec cam. I have a severe interest in what Sleeper did with the aux oil piping into the cam gallery. I want to try this myself but want to hit as many lifters/lobes as I can with it so I don't have to wait for oil to go all the way up the heads and down the pushrods before they even get wet. I dunno, just wondering if anyone had any tips on how I should go about it really.. any extra oiling assurance is a good one. also.. (been looking for this one for hours but can't find an answer..) I have 1.6 stamped non-roller-tipped rockers, and 1.6 full roller rockers. Can we not use the full rollers on these heads? no chance? Should I just throw on my 1.6 stamped ones and call it a day? I really want to get those full rollers in there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Tony As far as using the roller rockers (I assume there aftermarket) it's been done, don't remember who did it but there was guide plate problems as i remember. I think it was resolved by just opening up the slot in the guide plate. I would definatly check for LIM clerance with like a solid lifter (take the a couple of lifters apart and washer/ shim it until it won't collapse), (I cut off a couple of bolts)check each cylinder, same thing if you put a cam in to check piston clerance. As far as the cam oiling you could use tees and oil all of them you want although I haven't heard of many or any other than 9 & 10 going out. If you had a switch so the moter wouldn't start until you had oil pressure for a few seconds you would accomplish near the same thing. Not quite as good but close. Most wear is immediatly after starting when there is no oil pressure. The oiler i did simply got the oil to that lobe before the oil reached it through the galeries. Deffinatly did work. And I would recomend it for sure. Yea Dave it sure is old but apperantly it could be usefull as another cam bit the dust. Getting cold up there? Suposed to drop to low 30's her in the next couple days. Burrr. I bet your going burrrrrrrrr. Car put away for the winter? Got another new toy an have been kinda pre occupied. I'll post it in a couple days when I figure out how to post a couple movies. It's bigger than the last toy. Happy holidays everybody. I guess Merry Christmas will be aginst the law shortly. Jud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Got another new toy an have been kinda pre occupied. I'll post it in a couple days when I figure out how to post a couple movies. It's bigger than the last toy. Happy holidays everybody. I guess Merry Christmas will be aginst the law shortly. Jud :shock: Does that mean the T3076 is up for sale? :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 No No Kenny, I guess I better get with the post. The GT 3076 is to small for this. Jud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 No No Kenny, I guess I better get with the post. The GT 3076 is to small for this. Jud Oh MY! :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Lobe #10 will be intake or exhaust on Cylinder 6 correct? Assuming that #1 cylinder is the left front piston in the engine, thus #6 is the back right cylinder. Just want to know a little something if my cam ever goes on the TSTE, you know, what to look for. (I gotta look at post dates too! I didn't even realize I was reeding a 2 yr old post until I saw that Davis said "Happy Holidays" back in 2003. :shock: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 Lobe #10 will be intake or exhaust on Cylinder 6 correct? correct, exhaust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperRed90TGp Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Damn Dave -12 how do you survive? I am :oops: that I even mentioned 30. If it was that cold here I would hibernate. Well I almost do like today it didn't get over 40. Yea retirement has been good for me. I manage to keep pretty busy, well busy is not the word I never seem to be able to get all my projects done. I think Jeff has still got ya. I'll try and get the post up tonight. Did it once and lost it in cyber space. :bawl: Keep warm Jud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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