91GranSport Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 I thought a lightened flywheel would only allow the engine to spin faster. I didn't think it would add horsepower. VVT + lightened flywheel probably accounted for the 80HP difference.... through the magic of duct tape and alligator clips, and maybe a little spam, I'll put VVT on my Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolt_Crank Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 I thought a lightened flywheel would only allow the engine to spin faster. I didn't think it would add horsepower. VVT + lightened flywheel probably accounted for the 80HP difference.... through the magic of duct tape and alligator clips, and maybe a little spam, I'll put VVT on my Z lighter flywheel means less weight for the engine to turn same thing as a UD pulley, basically, just on a larger scale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 If GM is exploiting the L36 engine on all platforms then obviously it's a damn good motor. not really, that just means its dependable, not that fast. GM like sit cuz the people like it. a lot of torque is what the average person wants. he wants to get on the highway with his auto shifting before 3000, cuz otherwise he feels he is trashing it and running it too hard. thast exactly what the 3800 does. however the 3.4 is much more powerful, it just takes it to the hgiher rpm's to get somewhere. like on the highway at a normal pace, your auto will shift around 4000-5000 rpm's. thats loud and it makes the average person scared. GM's move was very inteligent, just not from a racer's standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 I thought a lightened flywheel would only allow the engine to spin faster. I didn't think it would add horsepower. VVT + lightened flywheel probably accounted for the 80HP difference.... through the magic of duct tape and alligator clips, and maybe a little spam, I'll put VVT on my Z lighter flywheel means less weight for the engine to turn same thing as a UD pulley, basically, just on a larger scale Along the same lines, the heavier the flywheel, the more torque you get, theres a happy medium in there for HP/torque values Robby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolt_Crank Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 true... you'd have to get it done by professionals, but I'm pretty sure the stock flywheel isn't at the perfect balance.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 not really, that just means its dependable, not that fast. GM like sit cuz the people like it. a lot of torque is what the average person wants. he wants to get on the highway with his auto shifting before 3000, cuz otherwise he feels he is trashing it and running it too hard. thast exactly what the 3800 does. however the 3.4 is much more powerful, it just takes it to the hgiher rpm's to get somewhere. like on the highway at a normal pace, your auto will shift around 4000-5000 rpm's. thats loud and it makes the average person scared. GM's move was very inteligent, just not from a racer's standpoint. Don't forget the 3800 is a lot easier to work on and is physically much smaller and cheaper to repair as well. You're right, every time I wind my 3.4 DOHC to 5000-6000rpm, I feel like something bad might happen like spinning a bearing. :read: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Well, I was commenting on multiple years. I like the olds rocket engines, as well as the chevy engines because of their insane support. I like the quad 4 and aurora engine as well. I very much prefer the DOHC to the 3800 as well. Are there any buick OHC engines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Well, I was commenting on multiple years. I like the olds rocket engines, as well as the chevy engines because of their insane support. I like the quad 4 and aurora engine as well. I very much prefer the DOHC to the 3800 as well. Are there any buick OHC engines? The last engine Buick had besides 90 degree V6 was...oh man. 3.0 3.3 3.8 are all bout the same, I think we'll have to dig into the early '70s. At least olds had the balls to make the Quad 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 I don't want to start the "motor wars" debate here, but I think the 3.4L Twin Cam has nowhere near the capability of the 3800 Series II. I've never seen a 3.4L Twin Cam put out more than 230HP naturally aspirated, while you can easily find mods for the L36 that'll boost it's power up to 250HP and more. As far as racing is concerned, there are lots of W-Body cars with L36 motors running the mid 14s in the quarter mile, something I've never seen a W-Body equipped with the 3.4L Twin Cam accomplish. Transmissions aside, I think the 3800 Series II is a motor the 3.4L Twin Cam can only dream of being. High reliability, capabilities for higher performance, low maintenance and decent fuel economy. If GM is exploiting the L36 engine on all platforms then obviously it's a damn good motor. not really, that just means its dependable, not that fast. GM like sit cuz the people like it. a lot of torque is what the average person wants. he wants to get on the highway with his auto shifting before 3000, cuz otherwise he feels he is trashing it and running it too hard. thast exactly what the 3800 does. however the 3.4 is much more powerful, it just takes it to the hgiher rpm's to get somewhere. like on the highway at a normal pace, your auto will shift around 4000-5000 rpm's. thats loud and it makes the average person scared. GM's move was very inteligent, just not from a racer's standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Not for cars there aren't. I think the only Buick that'll have a DOHC multi-valve engine will be the Buick Rainier with the Vortec engine. Buick will probably never have a DOHC multi-valve engine that's actually built specifically for Buick. You're more likely to see a new engine plopped into a Chevy or Pontiac then eventually move into the Buick. Sort of what happened to the L36. You first seen it in Buicks then eventually it was dropped into the Chevies and Pontiacs. I agree with you though, I do really like DOHC multi-valve engines and I think it's time for GM to move away from OHV engines. Well, I was commenting on multiple years. I like the olds rocket engines, as well as the chevy engines because of their insane support. I like the quad 4 and aurora engine as well. I very much prefer the DOHC to the 3800 as well. Are there any buick OHC engines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 As far as racing is concerned, there are lots of W-Body cars with L36 motors running the mid 14s in the quarter mile, something I've never seen a W-Body equipped with the 3.4L Twin Cam accomplish. Geez, where have you been? Aaron's been bragging about his 14.7s 1/4-mile since the end of June. :read: His 3.4 eventually spun a bearing or two, so it makes me wonder if the 3.4's pushrod-derived bottom end isn't designed to handle the constant high-revving that the DOHC top end thrives on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z34_nut Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 isn't a stock 3800 series II supercharged engine rated at 240 hp. well adding 10 HP ain't that hard. 250 hp... yeah thats showing the DOHC up. besides that, i think there more DOHC's out there then you think with just as much hp as the series II. think about it, were not going with power at the wheels obviously. so take in the fact that most people add a high flow cone filter, ud pully, and a chip, and i'm sure the're cressing the 240+ mark at that time. that not including the people that go all out, ported upper and lower intakes, 52mm valve body, thermostat, ported plentum, high flow exhaust, and the list goes on. i wouldn't be surprised if i saw a DOHC with all these performance additions go into the lower 14's. ~kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 isn't a stock 3800 series II supercharged engine rated at 240 hp. well adding 10 HP ain't that hard. 250 hp... yeah thats showing the DOHC up. ~kyle 91Gransport said the L36, the n/a 3.8 series II which puts out like 200HP, so adding 50HP aint bad at all Robby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjs316 Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 The GetRag 284 could have handled the beast... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 I don't want to start the "motor wars" debate here, but I think the 3.4L Twin Cam has nowhere near the capability of the 3800 Series II. I've never seen a 3.4L Twin Cam put out more than 230HP naturally aspirated, while you can easily find mods for the L36 that'll boost it's power up to 250HP and more. As far as racing is concerned, there are lots of W-Body cars with L36 motors running the mid 14s in the quarter mile, something I've never seen a W-Body equipped with the 3.4L Twin Cam accomplish. Transmissions aside, I think the 3800 Series II is a motor the 3.4L Twin Cam can only dream of being. High reliability, capabilities for higher performance, low maintenance and decent fuel economy. You need to get out more then. Find me a 3800 that can spin to 7200 and outflow the DOHC and then lets talk. I seem to remember a 14.3 quartermile DOHC with only bolt ons. There is also a NA DOHC in a fiero that puts 280 to the wheels with just intake and exhaust. Streetable no, but it was done. I also know of a couple DOHC's that dyno'd around 200/210 at the wheels with stock exhaust manifolds and just a cone filter on the intake, stock engine internals. And as for boosted, I know of more then 2 fiero's with turbo'd 3.4 DOHC's with stock internals running 12psi of boost for more then 2 years without an engine failure. I don't remember exactly but they dyno'd around 300hp/380tq at the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 and i can and have walked away from 240hp GTPs. i adjusted my altitude to sea level from 1200ft, and it turns out the run was a 14.59 @ 93.87mph, which in my books does qualify for mid 14s. and the 3.4 has way more potential than the 3.8. look, the 3.8 has a larger displacement and a blower and with slight mods i still walk them. its just we dont have the aftermarket like they do. and john did run a 14.3, which is a low 14 quarter mile by the way. michael put down 201hp to the wheels, and i can walk him without a problem ,about the same as i do the GTPs. so figure, i probly have about 210 to the wheels, which is about 250? to the crank. aint bad. and what if i blew mine? lets say a vortech centrifugal with 8psi and water to air intercooled. i guarantee i pick up AT LEAST 60 hp form that, which will put me in the low 300s, which by the way is somewhere comfortably into the mid 13s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 michael put down 201hp to the wheels, and i can walk him without a problem ,about the same as i do the GTPs. so figure, i probly have about 210 to the wheels, which is about 250? to the crank. Done bragging yet? Oh, and prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 michael put down 201hp to the wheels, and i can walk him without a problem ,about the same as i do the GTPs. so figure, i probly have about 210 to the wheels, which is about 250? to the crank. Done bragging yet? Oh, and prove it. prove waht? that michael did it? im sure he has the charts. and many others were there ya know. as for me walking him, his best is a 15.2. Luke ran a 15.2. i slammed Luke. michael wont race me. ive asked him before, even before my chip, and he wouldnt. lemme quote him. "your car pulls harder than it should up high. a fuck of a lot harder." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandPrix34 Posted August 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 look...Aaron has a fast car. THE fastest early W-Body. Let's all just face it. I am not sucking up to him, im just saying the truth. I too have though about a hundred things to try and put him down but never have posted them becuase plain and simple, he has a fast car.... The way he handles himself is something else. To be honest wit you peeps, if my 4der pulled as hard as his does, i would be bragging my ass too. Let's just all get along, embrace that one of our fellow W-Bodiers has a car into the mid 14's and that the SC 3800 blows..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandPrix34 Posted August 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 the SC 3800 blows..... well, it does have a blower after all so, yeah.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Shawn, I've been here since I bought my W-Body! That'd be around December '99. Hell I remember back when we were on that "EZBoard" system. I apologize, I totally forgot about Aaron. But that's just one guy. As I mentioned earlier, I don't want to start the "motor wars" or anything, but I think it would be hard to get a 3.4L Twin Cam to produce 240HP+ when you can easily do that to a 3800 Series II and keep it naturally aspirated. Overall I would love to see GM build a DOHC multi-valve V-6 for our the W-Body platform but it seems like it'll never happen. The 3.5L "Shortstar" is going to be discontinued, at least that's what I've heard. Too bad, it seemed like a decent motor although it lacked low end torque. Wouldn't be easier to simply adapt valve valve timing to it? I think that's what Cadillac did with their 4.6L Northstar on the Cadillac XLR. As far as racing is concerned, there are lots of W-Body cars with L36 motors running the mid 14s in the quarter mile, something I've never seen a W-Body equipped with the 3.4L Twin Cam accomplish. Geez, where have you been? Aaron's been bragging about his 14.7s 1/4-mile since the end of June. :read: His 3.4 eventually spun a bearing or two, so it makes me wonder if the 3.4's pushrod-derived bottom end isn't designed to handle the constant high-revving that the DOHC top end thrives on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 No, no, I'm not talking about the L67, I'm talking about the L36. There are enough mods out there to bring the 205HP 3800 Series II up to 250HP while keeping it naturally aspirated, reliable and street legal. It would be unfair to bring the L67 into this discussion as it isn't naturally aspirated. I have never seen a 3.4L Twin Cam out there put out more than 250HP. There have been several people who claimed to have around 240HP or so due to various modifications including cylinder head work and such, but those people are very rare. I know there are a lot of 3.4L Twin Cam owners out there, but it seems they either fall into two categories. One category being the enthusiast who loves his engine and the other category being someone who hates his engine due to a bad experience with engine failure. I would pay all due respect to anyone with a 3.4L Twin Cam engine that puts out tremendous power and at the same time keep their vehicle completely drivable and reliable. I think the major downside to the 3.4L Twin Cam is it's reliability and high maintenance. If GM can build a DOHC multi-valve engine that's as reliable as the L36 and at the same time as powerful as the 3.4L Shortstar then perhaps they can ditch the Buick 3800 Series II. Until then it seems like they'll keep on using it and exploiting it. isn't a stock 3800 series II supercharged engine rated at 240 hp. well adding 10 HP ain't that hard. 250 hp... yeah thats showing the DOHC up. besides that, i think there more DOHC's out there then you think with just as much hp as the series II. think about it, were not going with power at the wheels obviously. so take in the fact that most people add a high flow cone filter, ud pully, and a chip, and i'm sure the're cressing the 240+ mark at that time. that not including the people that go all out, ported upper and lower intakes, 52mm valve body, thermostat, ported plentum, high flow exhaust, and the list goes on. i wouldn't be surprised if i saw a DOHC with all these performance additions go into the lower 14's. ~kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 I'm not talking flow, I'm not talking how fast it'll spin up to. I'm talking about the comparison between the two motors when it includes power, reliability, aftermarket parts availability, and maintenance. Read my messages up above and you'll see. Not once did I mention flow characteristics or anything like that. So, read my messages above and we can discuss it further. BTW: Please, let's not get Fieros into this picture. You can literally drop an LT-1 engine into those things and race Ferraris with them. Oh yeah, I've seen a Fiero that someone posted on here about a year ago with an L67 that was putting out well over 300HP. I'm sure if we look for the post we'll find it. You need to get out more then. Find me a 3800 that can spin to 7200 and outflow the DOHC and then lets talk. I seem to remember a 14.3 quartermile DOHC with only bolt ons. There is also a NA DOHC in a fiero that puts 280 to the wheels with just intake and exhaust. Streetable no, but it was done. I also know of a couple DOHC's that dyno'd around 200/210 at the wheels with stock exhaust manifolds and just a cone filter on the intake, stock engine internals. And as for boosted, I know of more then 2 fiero's with turbo'd 3.4 DOHC's with stock internals running 12psi of boost for more then 2 years without an engine failure. I don't remember exactly but they dyno'd around 300hp/380tq at the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91GranSport Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 You're one of the very few people with the 3.4L Twin Cam that can smoke the L67-equipped Gen2 W-Body, so I'll respect that. As I mentioned, I don't want to start a "motor wars" debate as this is already reaching "off-topic", but I will agree with you that the 3.4L Twin Cam probably has more potential than the L36. I can't totally agree with you simply because there is so much aftermarket for the L36 that the 3.4L Twin Cam gets left behind. Pretty much everything you want to do to a 3.4L Twin Cam has to be custom. So it'd be unfair, really. Performance aside, I know that when it comes to reliability, maintenance and aftermarket parts availability the L36 wins hands down. It really is a shame, because I always wanted my W-Body (despite being a Buick owner) to have a DOHC multi-valve engine. Obviously I'll take my 3800 TPI V-6 over the 3.4L Twin Cam simply due to maintenance costs and reliability. And since the L36 is even more reliable and at the same time more powerful than my current 3800 TPI V-6, it's an easy choice to see which engine I'll drop into my car next. BTW: How many miles/km do you have on your engine? Also, if you're able to beat the Gen2 W-Body with your 3.4L Twin Cam then you must be putting out well over 250HP, perhaps 260-270HP. As for torque, I have no clue. Considering most of your power comes at higher RPMs, I'm sure you must have a beast on your hands. and i can and have walked away from 240hp GTPs. i adjusted my altitude to sea level from 1200ft, and it turns out the run was a 14.59 @ 93.87mph, which in my books does qualify for mid 14s. and the 3.4 has way more potential than the 3.8. look, the 3.8 has a larger displacement and a blower and with slight mods i still walk them. its just we dont have the aftermarket like they do. and john did run a 14.3, which is a low 14 quarter mile by the way. michael put down 201hp to the wheels, and i can walk him without a problem ,about the same as i do the GTPs. so figure, i probly have about 210 to the wheels, which is about 250? to the crank. aint bad. and what if i blew mine? lets say a vortech centrifugal with 8psi and water to air intercooled. i guarantee i pick up AT LEAST 60 hp form that, which will put me in the low 300s, which by the way is somewhere comfortably into the mid 13s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 i am sitting at JUST over 127,000 right now, and that number aint gonna be getting mugh higher for quite some time. the 3.4 has way more potential, just no aftermarket to bring that out. and as for the dependability, it is no where close to a old GM pushrod motor, any size. my dads 4.3 S10 has 188,000 miles, and it has a small vacuum leak, needed a new heater core at 130k. thats all. well beside the new motor and tranny at 180k, but he didnt ned that, just needed new seals. i assume the 3.8 is just as reliable. and the reason the DOHC 6s are no longer made is simple, its not what the average person wants. people want tq, so they dont have to run real high to get anywhere. look...Aaron has a fast car. THE fastest early W-Body. Let's all just face it. I am not sucking up to him, im just saying the truth. I too have though about a hundred things to try and put him down but never have posted them becuase plain and simple, he has a fast car.... The way he handles himself is something else. To be honest wit you peeps, if my 4der pulled as hard as his does, i would be bragging my ass too. Let's just all get along, embrace that one of our fellow W-Bodiers has a car into the mid 14's and that the SC 3800 blows..... that post just put my ego throuhg the roof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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