Jeff M's Engine info- Jeff M, Please post specs here :)

[Garrett Powered]

I used to run like 1 gal. of 130 octane/tank. I think it had lead in it.

 

a gallon of Turbo 108 is like 35 bucks or something but it does a lot of tanks.

 

the best thing to do is probably buy a 55 gallon drum of the 120 octane/no lead and dump a gallon in every couple days. :?

[Jeff M]

To answer the question, there is no way that I know to test the octane, bummer , there may be a way but not heard it yet (anyone???). Mixing higher octane works to help, but only if you are having knock problems, if not then it’s a waste of money as it don’t make more power , it only allows you to make more power via raising the boost and timing higher than you could get away with on 92 octane. 100 octane no lead around here has run $2.50, to $3.50 a gallon now, and doing quick math gets you an idea of what you are running, 5 gallons of 91 octane and 5 gallons of 100 octane yields 95.5 octane (91+100/2=95.5). I have seen 104 no lead as well. Or mixing Toluene or Xylene which has something like 114-116 octane really kicks things up with only a few gallons added to a tank, and can be had at your local Home Depot by the gallon.

 

Jeff M

[Prospeeder]

go to walmart, and buy a thing of 104 octane booster

[sl3196]

go to walmart, and buy a thing of 104 octane booster

Yeah that will help.

[Prospeeder]

no no i just ment if they didnt know if they had the right octane in the gas to add that, mabye i read the convo wrong, lol, it seemed like they didint know what they had, or the gas stations were ripping them off??

[sl3196]

no no i just ment if they didnt know if they had the right octane in the gas to add that, mabye i read the convo wrong, lol, it seemed like they didint know what they had, or the gas stations were ripping them off??

 

Still its more of an injector cleaner then octane booster. Xylene or Toluene would be what you should add.

[Prospeeder]

no no i just ment if they didnt know if they had the right octane in the gas to add that, mabye i read the convo wrong, lol, it seemed like they didint know what they had, or the gas stations were ripping them off??

 

Still its more of an injector cleaner then octane booster. Xylene or Toluene would be what you should add.

ah ic, thats retarded then

[Jeff M]

If anyone has the TGP magazine article from Car and Driver or Road and Track where the best time’s for our TGP were done (0-60 in 7 flat ) there is also a good test article in that mag on octane boost! They showed that back when 104 (produced by Golden Eagle) did have the additive MMT, they were the only ones to do any real increases to octane, no one else really did . They also eluded to the fact that a steady diet of MMT would cause excessive combustion chamber build up, that would decrease the area of our combustion chamber (increase our compression ratio) and therefore increasing our need for higher octane, kind of like Heroin, you need more to get the same benefits . They also stated that running one of the other octane boosters that was based on alcohol would help clean out those deposits. But since that article, and over the years, others have found the problem with MMT and combustion chamber build-up and the problem it causes, so recently 104 dropped the MMT and instead went on to being an injector cleaner and combustion chamber cleaner. Cleaning the combustion chamber will help keep pinging away in normally aspirated engines, and small amounts of knock in turbo engines, but does not actually increase octane. Once 104 dropped MMT (might have had a patent on its use) others were quick to pick this up and started adding it to their octane boost, so there are others out there now just know the consequences when using it. NOS has at least 2 formulas that have MMT, their Race Version has MMT and increases octane by a full 6 numbers (60 points) so 91 octane would now be 97 octane, but they also have a small amount of Nitro-Methane in there to help too, so yeehaaaa 8) .

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

time for more mods. T3/T04E + FMIC here i come.

 

Since you are looking to go a bigger turbo/more hp (and others are too so this post will apply to them as well :!: , maybe more so to others ), and I assume getting more higher rpm hp for our engine, I just want to mention as I did above, that at lower rpms where we hit our peak VE/Torque and exceed the knock threshold of 92 octane with too much boost from even our turbo, that a bigger turbo will also quickly push more air at lower rpms than we have octane for, so you will need to ramp up the boost slowly so that at lower rpms it does not get too much, then at higher rpms takes over where the stock turbo left off at feeding the need at speed .

 

To even better address the limiting factor of our engine (well most any engine actually ) you can lower the compression to allow more boost/more air/more power to be made, this is nothing new and I will give some examples below here on it still being the case today:

 

2006 Evo IX MR

2L Motor

8.8:1 Compression Ratio

286 hp

 

2006 Suby WRX STI

2.4L Motor

8.2:1 Compression Ratio

300 hp

 

And its great fun to look at this one:

 

2006 Ford GT

5.4L Motor

8.4:1 Compression Ratio

550 hp

 

While others are going this route without forced induction but have less power per Liter (NOTE their Compression Ratios in comparison to those above!!!):

 

2006 Dodge Viper

8.3L Motor

9.6:1 Compression Ratio

510 hp

 

2006 Corvette Z06

7 Liter Motor

11:.0:1 Compression Ratio

505 hp

 

2006 Dodge Charger SRT8

6 Liter Motor

10.3:1 Compression Ratio

425 hp

 

2005 Pontiac (Holden) GTO

6 Liter Motor

10.9:1 Compression Ratio

400 hp

 

So, without a turbo and having manufacturers that can design their “parts†to run up compression ratios in the high 10s to low 11s, allows some big hp, but most are still doing it with much larger displacements (6, 7 and 8 Liters). While others that still have good “parts†(combustion chamber and piston top design) are lowering the compression ratio and using forced induction to make big hp for their smaller size engine. And its great to see the Ford GT with only a 5.4L motor making more power (550 hp) then the normally aspirated larger size engines (7 Liter-505hp and 8.3 Liter-505hp) , so its still a huge factor to go forced induction, with the required lower compression to have the best power combo 8) , at least in our application too since we are not going to make an 8-9 thousand rpm Asian engines .

 

If anyone wants to get more into this, get off this board and go to the Syclone Typhoon board where there are many super fast engines and many very avid engine builders/tuners that can (and maybe already have) expand much more on turbo engine application and how to do it right. These guys have the smarts, have the money and the commitment and are a great resource to learn from. Same holds true for the guys that have been around even longer 8) , the Buick Regal T-Type/GN Forums though not sure just how much good info is left as its all been talked about on their forums years ago and good info has probably rolled off their forums like old info does on ours .

 

Last would be to get some good books, the most common heard of is Corky Bell and Maximum Boost, this is one smart man who is extremely personable (talked to him once for longer than I thought he should spend time on a first-time phone call :shock: ). His only miss-quote in Maximum Boost is to state that lowering the compression is not the best approach for forced induction, but he TOTALLY missed pointing out it’s the manufacturer’s fault for not spending more R&D money (LOTS more$$) to design heads and piston tops to allow higher compression and forced induction. But us as users cannot go out and get such heads and pistons, they do not exist and we don’t have the smarts or the money to tell someone what we want custom made up, but really if it was that easy then the manufacturers WOULD already have such parts on their cars :!: . Beside, the few I quoted above (Evo, Suby, Ford GT), and others like the 600+hp production engine from Mercedes Benz in their C65 cars and the SLR that all run 4 turbos still have a lower compression engines to run their forced induction, so that is the way it stands today from some of the biggest and best car companies :!:

 

Other books are as follows:

 

Forced Induction Tuning (very good book/very diverse!!) by A Graham Bell

 

Engine Testing Theory and Practice by Michael Plint & Anthony Martyr

 

Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals (not easy shit but one of the best/my favorite books) by John B Heywood

 

Advanced Engine Technology by Heinz Heisler

 

Anything from David Vizard and there are too many to list the ones I have or all that he has to offer in books, taped seminars and published papers :shock: . He is a god on such topics :!:

 

Also any book from Ray T. Bohacz (too many to list and a lot of his best work is in magazine articles such as the old Turbo and High Tech Performance (not the new ones that have just pretty pictures and advertisements ) GM High Tech Performance and many others

 

Automotive Supercharging and Turbocharging Systems by John D. Humphries

 

Turbochargers (just an ok book, but some good stuff) by Hugh Maclnnes

 

Mixture Formation in Spark-Ignition Engines by H.P Lenz

 

Here is a small free-bee: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/6992/vizard.html

 

There are many books at the SAE Book Store as well. And also at this site: http://dansayre.com/ti/

 

So, for anyone interested, its one thing to just slap parts on and hope it all works, even cobble up some parts to try and attempt to make it work, but its yet another to know what to do so money is not wasted or the engine is not damaged, or find after all the hard work doing a custom install only netted a small gain when if it was done right, would have netted a sizeable gain as it should and can do if people are informed, this holds true with anything people are looking to get or get into, being informed first is a prerequisite .

 

Jeff M

[TGPilot]

A couple of "octane boost" pages to check out.

 

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene/tol2.html

 

http://www.dsm.org/archives/1996/04/19960425.txt/8.html

[Garrett Powered]

anyone ever mixed up a batch of tolulene/xylene/tranny fluid and dump it in your tank?

 

I am about to make a run to the hardware store. I know exactly where the gallons of that crap are. seen them before and thought it might work.

 

So just take a beer can or something and dump like a swig of Mystery oil in with it along with the toluene? Then use a funnel to get it in the car?

[Jeff M]

anyone ever mixed up a batch of tolulene/xylene/tranny fluid and dump it in your tank?

 

I am about to make a run to the hardware store. I know exactly where the gallons of that crap are. seen them before and thought it might work.

 

So just take a beer can or something and dump like a swig of Mystery oil in with it along with the toluene? Then use a funnel to get it in the car?

 

I have ran Xylene many times, for 2 months straight when I was hooked on it but I was running much more boost and timing so it was needed and at that time, helped, but as I said, no reason to add it to your car as it will not make more hp by itself. As for blending, the only other thing guys that run this a lot/heavy mix is the suggestion of using some kind of lube for the fuel pump and injectors to keep them happy since these heavy aromatic hydrocarbons are still a thinner/paint thinner .

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

A couple of "octane boost" pages to check out.

 

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene/tol2.html

 

http://www.dsm.org/archives/1996/04/19960425.txt/8.html

 

Nice links Kenny 8) The second one looks just like the original one from the Buick T-Type/GN guys years ago, looks like it gets around .

 

What would we do if we did not have the Internet

 

Jeff M

[Prospeeder]

i bet if there was no internet, that 90% of all TGPs would be junked, because of the xover issue alone and no way of correcting it, and then GM discontinueing it, unless u wanna take it to an exhaust shop, wich still isnt a good fix i hear

[twalt13]

anyone ever mixed up a batch of tolulene/xylene/tranny fluid and dump it in your tank?

 

I used to do this, used the MMO insted of Tranny fluid. It would take 1/2 hr to 1 hr for the motor to notice the mix. Really noticed a differance in my 1997 GTP, but also ran this in my (former) 1990 TSTE.

 

Now days it is cheaper to used "Tarco" or just buy a 5 Gal can of 104 IMO.

[Jcrow]

whats tarco?

[TGPilot]

but also ran this in my (former) 1990 TSTE.

 

 

YOU DID WHAT? :shock: I am going home to wax her and talk nice to her about how you abused her and how it will never happen again!!

[sl3196]

whats tarco?

 

I think its called Torco, but anyways its a race gas mix that comes in a can.

[skalor]

I still don't see any proof of 450 HP. :?

[TGPilot]

I still don't see any proof of 450 HP. :?

 

 

[Intlcutlass]

:withstupid:

[Aaron]

To even better address the limiting factor of our engine (well most any engine actually ) you can lower the compression to allow more boost/more air/more power to be made, this is nothing new and I will give some examples below here on it still being the case today:

 

2006 Evo IX MR

2L Motor

8.8:1 Compression Ratio

286 hp

 

2006 Suby WRX STI

2.4L Motor

8.2:1 Compression Ratio

300 hp

 

And its great fun to look at this one:

 

2006 Ford GT

5.4L Motor

8.4:1 Compression Ratio

550 hp

 

While others are going this route without forced induction but have less power per Liter (NOTE their Compression Ratios in comparison to those above!!!):

 

2006 Dodge Viper

8.3L Motor

9.6:1 Compression Ratio

510 hp

 

2006 Corvette Z06

7 Liter Motor

11:.0:1 Compression Ratio

505 hp

 

2006 Dodge Charger SRT8

6 Liter Motor

10.3:1 Compression Ratio

425 hp

 

2005 Pontiac (Holden) GTO

6 Liter Motor

10.9:1 Compression Ratio

400 hp

 

So, without a turbo and having manufacturers that can design their “parts†to run up compression ratios in the high 10s to low 11s, allows some big hp, but most are still doing it with much larger displacements (6, 7 and 8 Liters). While others that still have good “parts†(combustion chamber and piston top design) are lowering the compression ratio and using forced induction to make big hp for their smaller size engine. And its great to see the Ford GT with only a 5.4L motor making more power (550 hp) then the normally aspirated larger size engines (7 Liter-505hp and 8.3 Liter-505hp) , so its still a huge factor to go forced induction, with the required lower compression to have the best power combo 8) , at least in our application too since we are not going to make an 8-9 thousand rpm Asian engines .

 

Remember also you just compared 3 forced induction motors that all have Double Overhead cams, 4 vavles per cylinder, to 4 OHV 2 valve per cylinder. And not only does the worst DOHC head in that group still outflow SIGNIFICANTLY the best pushrod head, but its combustion characteristics are also much better. Thus a manufacturer can run a higher dynamic compression ratio in the DOHC motor, as it burns more efficiently. So lets try and equalize the playing field a bit:

 

BMW M3

3.2l I6

11.5:1 compression

333hp

 

Porsche Carrera GT

5.7l V10

12.0:1 compression

605hp

 

Honda S2000

2.0l I4

11.0:1 compression

240hp

 

So these 3 engines all have very close horsepower/L numbers, with natural aspiration. And while it took high compression to get them there, their dynamic compression is almost certainly lower. Thus the actual compression with respect to the volume of air/fuel charge is less. And the engine therefore is less prone to detonation and will probably last longer.

 

Lastly you most certainly can have high compresion and boost (High in context). Notice of your 3 boosted examples, the highest level of factory tuning (Highest HP/L) is the engine with the highest compression ratio of the boosted 3 at 8.8:1.

 

Another example is the Mercedes Benz SL65 AMG

6.0l V12 SOHC 3v per cylinder BiTurbo

604hp, 738tq

9.0:1 compression

 

So the SL makes slightly less HP/L, but does so at significantly less RPM, and with a more innefficient cylinder head and combustion chamber. But look at its torque. 738lb ft. That without a doubt tromps every other car here. And having driven one, let's just say it didn't feel turbocharged. It was like the TGP in that there was zero turbo lag. Punch it at 1500rpm, and assuming it gets traction, the turboes spool instantly and its gone. Yet it holds to 6000rpm without the dropoff after 5 like the TGP.

 

Just because you lower compression ratio and increase boost doesn't mean you'll gain power. If you do gain power, you are either cooling the charge more, or raising dynamic compression. And since we aren't doing anything to cool the charge more (In fact we are raising the charge temps), the power increase comes from a higher dynamic compression ratio. Higher dynamic compression plus hotter charge may equal power, but it may also equal destruction. We are not working with a state of the art fuel injection system or combustion chamber. We are working with an old MPFI system. With this comes another concern. Each individual cylinder is getting different fuel mixtures since it is batch firing. Now lets take the worst cylinder, I don't know which it is, but one has to be the worst. So you lower compression, and raise boost. This cylinder could very quickly run VERY dangerously. So minor boost jumps and compression drops are ok, but don't think to drop c/r to 8 and boost up to 20psi and expect your engine to last, especially with the (No offense) crappy turbo, combustion chamber, and intercooler.

 

In my opinion, the limiting factors on the turbo 3.1 are just about everything. The block has been proven to 360+ whp, so that isn't so much a limiting factor. The cylinder heads barely flow half that of the 3.4 DOHC. ANd not to go on a whole DOHC vs OHV here, but these heads need help. Their port shape is absolutely terrible, and it is small. The flow characteristics prove this. Plus, the head 'offers' very poor ignition characteristics. This is a result of the OHV side plug design. So if you really plan to boost this motor up, I'd suggest a different ignition for sure. GM fixed this on their LS1 enignes with coil on plug. Obviously the intake manifolds are nothing to gawk at, and IMHO they cannot flow enough air for 450hp, even boosted. So this points an odd finger at JeffM right off. What have you done to yoru intake manifolds? Lastly, the entire turbocharging system is a limiting factor to 400hp IMHO. The exahust manifolds are too small are poorly designed, the turbo is, uhhhh, well, bad, the intercooler is nothing special, and the fuel injection system is about proportional, meaning it also is no good for 400+ hp imo. The dynamic compression numbers needed for 400hp on a 3.1 V6 are going to be high, DAMN high. And I don't think the factory OBDI setup can safely control a 3.1T at 400+ hp.

 

On the side, 7 pages of his 450hp turbo 3.1 discussion and he hasn't posted a single pic or video? I havn't seen proof yet either, anyone can post a big sheet with a lot of components. Not doubting it, it is surely possible, but is a dyno that hard?

[TGPilot]

My god Aaron left his user name and password signed on somewhere and someone with a brain started typing!!! :shock: :shock:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aaron]

Kenny, I forgot to call you over Thxgiving!

 

I will over X-mas though! Trust me, you'll want a ride in my Fiero of 135hp...

[Jcrow]

I like the link about aaron in monte carlo chicks link