Jeff M Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 oh' date=' good idea....jeff u can start a school....all of us minnesotans can stop by ur shop once a week and u can give TGP tuning lessons!!! seriously though i really appreciate your time and effort, thanks for being patient with me...i don't know if u can tell but im just excited for spring to be comin round in a month or 2....want to start getting the info together. [/quote'] I hear that, I am rushing to complete work for winter tuning, right now in the garage wiring up 2 dual gauges one for air temps into and out of the intercooler, boost pressure before and after the intercooler, manifold boost pressure, fuel pressure and exhaust back pressure prior to the turbo and 0-60 psi gauge for that . Then wire in the radar detector, knock alert and Wide Band o2, got to have gauges to see the before and after/results, and to keep an eye on the vitals. Then a few stereo upgrades to install and wire in, your basic night that keeps you from the house monitors (PC and TV ). I have thought about giving classes, there is enough demand for it here with all the modding guys I know, but there are too many in-demand things already for my life right now Thanks a lot for understanding 8). This will be the first time in a long time I am tuning and driving my own TGPs for a change Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 You know..you can just dig up Jeffs old post and make a book out of it . I know thats what I do when I find someone useful. Take Scot Sealander...I've searched all his post just to get some insite to his work..as I did Jeff, Curtis, TGPilot, Mick and many more. I then apply what they know and apply it to what I leared on books, websites and personal experiance..and compare myth, facts, trial and error and look for improvements. Take for example: Jeff M. the stock heads will flow up to a point for sure, but once you go into Mach speed (literally, somewhere around 300 fps, to busy to go dig up the info) you will not flow any more air no matter how hard you blow/boost, "Engines tend to peak when the maximum velocity through the valve at the maximum point in the intake cycle is about 550 to 600 feet per second. At greater velocities, the power drops. The engine will keep getting more and more power until it reaches the point where the "Mach" is 0.55, and then the power drops. You have to increase the airflow, and reduce the Mach number, in order to get power at a higher speed. Mach is ratio of air speed to the speed of sound, about 1080 feet per second at sea level." (SuperFlow Company) http://www.superflow.com This is true to CFM. BUT CFM (raw)doen't change regarless of boost well at least not entirely. The density does improve the VE. CFM is CFM after all. Desnsity ratio is the amount of air molicules per given Cubic foot. Higher desnsity ratios=more air molicules into the same Cubic feet. So the Mach levels will most likely stay the same at that CFM or what not. So no more CFM will make itself into the cylinder and power will drop off. But it don't mean it won't make more power if you blow on it harder . Our peak at 4800 is 205 and just drops off after that. Well this is at a pethetic 1.4 DR at best. At a DR of 2.2 it might peak at 350 and drop off after that. But even the drop off is higher than the previus. OK..DR of 3..500hp and then power drops off..but is still higher than previus drop offs..and is way beyond what the N/A heads can even flow if you try to convert the HP to cfm and compare what the heads can flow. "Multiply the maximum flow times the power coefficient for that test pressure. For example, if intake system flow is 100 CFM, look in the manual and you’ll find the equation for 25" of water. The power coefficient is 0.27. At 100 cfm the engine could produce 27 horsepower from that cylinder. That is not the power you are guaranteed to get, but everyone will be quite surprised if you get more than that." -Superflow Again..this is N/A..not boosted. This might hold true to the exhaust too. The hot side does have similar flow cariteristics. DR, Cfm..ect. The hotter it gets ..the lower the DR..and the worse it flows. Am I getting this right? If not..correct me cuz I don't want to head to the wrong direction. :oops: Theres one thing about our intake that the flow bench don't pic up on is that the bends will affect the flow as the "Mach" levels rise. Part of the intake runners for the 1,3, and 5 cylinders are on the front top manafolds and is then bent and the rest is on the rear lower manafold. This affects airflow a tad N/A. 2,4 and 6..the runners are mostly all on the lower manafold. I think if anything..you'd be running lean on 2,4,6 n/a and boosted or rich on 1,3 and 5. More of a direct path of flow for 2,4,6. But it can be improved and is why I made the holes biger on the front. ANyone have two WB02s . Another remedi is the gap of the plugs. Gap the front plugs wider or the rear shorter Well just a thought. Great info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 On the comment of power also, I don't think a lot of people realize how much of a Pain in the Ass a high HP FWD car can be. I don't know if Jeff agrees about his cars, but my car is too the point where I don't really enjoy driving it on the street anymore. It starts too become a real chore too control a car like that constantly. Does "normal" driving pose any issues with your car? I wouldn't imagine that you would have a problem unless you're trying to romp on it on the street. RWD cars can be a handful as well at higher power levels as I'm sure you know, my brother has a 1992 Mustang w/ ~400whp( NA 302 bored/stroked to 347ci) and traction is non-existant for it until around 80mph on the street if you're getting on it hard. Normal driving, it's just like any other car though, save for having to keep the revs up slightly so it doesn't want to buck/stall on you(due to the cam) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboZ24 Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Well, we would have too define "normal" driving pretty much as anything less than say 1/8th throttle. If I drive like a granny and intentionally keep the car out of boost, it's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Take for example: Jeff M. the stock heads will flow up to a point for sure, but once you go into Mach speed (literally, somewhere around 300 fps, to busy to go dig up the info) you will not flow any more air no matter how hard you blow/boost, "Engines tend to peak when the maximum velocity through the valve at the maximum point in the intake cycle is about 550 to 600 feet per second. At greater velocities, the power drops. The engine will keep getting more and more power until it reaches the point where the "Mach" is 0.55, and then the power drops. You have to increase the airflow, and reduce the Mach number, in order to get power at a higher speed. Mach is ratio of air speed to the speed of sound, about 1080 feet per second at sea level." (SuperFlow Company) http://www.superflow.com Great info. Sure they can flow close to supersonic speeds all you have to do drop the densiity. Many engines like the Concord, even radial piston engine for airplanes are able to breathe close to supersonic flow well above 0.55, they are not good at it but they do it. Back to the ground the problem with our engines is not as simple as flow dynamics in the intake, it's the old problem of efficiency. It does take about 90% of engine power to run it'self we use 10% and dyno our buts off about it. Simple as that. Regards Adam S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futuretgper Posted February 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 jeff, with all the gauges and wiring and shit ur workin on ur hp gains will be negated by all the extra weight of the gauges and wiring u installed get those hp gains!! hahhaa!! where are u goin to mount all of ur guages then?? oh and u never answered this...if u don't intend to ill understand...sorta.. so right now what are the optimum/ideal' date=' heads (ported and polished) and intake combo??jeff did your p&p gen III heads with the worked 3.1intake run higher numbers than just p&p genIII heads with a regular 3100 intake?[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I have a question, if it's been brought up before I apologize. What about using the MAF system off of an 88' Grand prix 2.8? Happened to see one in the junk yard the other day and thought, HMMMM, I wonder if that would be easier to work with than the MAP sensor for increasing boost. Just a random thought. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Joberlee..I had also thought about that...but those old Maf sensors are unreliable. Scot Sea has a similar setup.. Its just as involved as doing a 3 bar map. Now a 3400 Mass or LS6 Mass sensor would be worth the effort. My ideal setup is the 3bar or Mass sensor, a 1bar open to the atmostphere (just like the fords), two IAT(one before the turbo inlet, one on the stock location). To think of it..I think ford had done its home work..cuz I see they even put a pressure sensor on the exhaust . Talk about optimum tunning :shock: . But for now..max out the 2bar and see what she'll do. I can see how an engine can flow beyond Mach .55 Adam..but those engines use a fuel, engine desing optimised for those speeds. As the Mach levels rises on ours...the "Pour" or "Flush" from air going into the cylinder detiriorate, creates high turbulance, and less air makes itself in there, the air heats itself up and won't create a complete burn or preignite. Yes..the old age fact of our engine..10% power. But 10% can be 140hp or 4000hp. But I'll keep looking..it's all endless. One fact conflicts another..then another..its all endless right down to the patch of rubber on the ground. futuretgp'er..if you search ..you'll find some of your answeres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 and the fact that the inlet points directly at #6 runner doesn’t help matters. You couldn't convince me in a million years that this intake setup is meant for boost.Jud Still hoping your wife is doing better now!!! Remembering more later about your one point here correctly stating the eyeball line of site looking into the inlet of the upper intake plenum where you see the inlet to number 6 intake runner as being overly hit/favored by the incoming air, might want to stick the TB we have back on and look again the TB Throttle Plate is setup to stop air from entering straight into the upper intake plenum so this is not so bad as it looks 8). Also the upper intake is more a plenum such as an air collection station with the lower intake and heads acting more to the flow concepts you are applying, though the other part of the upper intake does have runners for numbers 1,3,5, there is still that "plenum cavity" that serves its purpose. Are my "Million years" up yet just kidding. All I have time for :oops: Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
god910 Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I could live with massive torque steer if I had 300+ hp in my TGP. 8) Might be that bad either : Could easily be the patch of a RWD Car 8) but it is a burn out I did near my home, poor neighbors Jeff M A side note of torque steer. The worst I ever felt in a TGP was the "fatal run" of Sunshine's transmission. (2K clutch release on 245/45/17 Nitto Drag Radials on a good burnout) HOWEVER!!!!! I nearly killed myself while quickshifting my Daytona into 2nd at 6K. (I *might* have been talking on my cellphone, having only one available hand to shift :oops: ) Ie, no hand on the wheel. Luckily, the car TURNED into a parking lot, the guy I was racing must have REALLY wandered what was going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 HOWEVER!!!!! I nearly killed myself while quickshifting my Daytona into 2nd at 6K. (I *might* have been talking on my cellphone, having only one available hand to shift :oops: ) Ie, no hand on the wheel. Luckily, the car TURNED into a parking lot, the guy I was racing must have REALLY wandered what was going on. My cousin had a Shelby Daytona, Scared the hell out of me the first time I rode in it. With 20psi and 8 injectors, the car had major torque steer. Under full acceleration it would change lanes when you shifted. After several years of racing the body was so twisted you had to pull up on one door and push down on the other to open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 After several years of racing the body was so twisted you had to pull up on one door and push down on the other to open I have never heard of a Front Wheel Drive car being twisted...Rear Wheel yes...front wheel no. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 He was pulling low 13s in the 1/4 mile. The car was written up in a couple of magazines. Took second place one year in the front drive shoot out at the Mopar Nationals. By the following race season he was a good .5 second faster than the car that deat him for 1st place. But he toasted the engine and now it sits in storage . One of the front wheels would come off the ground on a hard launch, no LSD. That's why the body got so tweaked. Oh and the car was still street legal, used to surprize a lot of people..... 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 One of the front wheels would come off the ground on a hard launch, no LSD. That's why the body got so tweaked. FWD and pulling a front tire off the ground? A FWD car pulling the front tires off the ground at launch is absolutely without a doubt impossible. If the tires get so light that they are coming off the ground it would just loose traction and go up in smoke before the tire came off the ground. A 13 sec car would not launch hard enough to lift the front wheels on a RWD car unless the motor and every ounce of weight was in the trunk! I am sorry but I have to call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futuretgper Posted February 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 he said 1, one, tire came off the ground...which i could belive becuse of the tourqe of teh engine...(i dont know about this particular car??) but u would loose tons of traction on the lauch especially without a LSD! the tire in the air would have like 80 of the power sent to it... it would be dog off the line no chance for 13s.....it probably possible but highly unlikely...at least ive never heard of or seen this before. the only thing i bet he meant was the front right or front left tire appeared to pick up right off the line when the light flipped...and came back down instantly... people do set up there differentials for this type of lean though dont they?? so the tire that gets more weight gets more tourque and power sent to it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Well this topic has gotten completely off topic and risks being locked because of that! It is not fair for people who wish to learn about the possibilities of the 3 Bar Map setup to lose it because of this! Jeff, Brian P, TurboSedan, LukeZ34...PLEASE DELETE my posts (preferably all posts) related to this vehicle doing one wheel wheel stands on a FWD car!! If anyone wishes to discuss the impossibilites of a 13 sec car pulling the front tire(s) off the ground...start a new thread although it is TRULY POINTLESS!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futuretgper Posted February 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 A 13 sec car would not launch hard enough to lift the front wheels on a RWD car unless the motor and every ounce of weight was in the trunk! oh i missed that.....yeah they will!! with a good drag setup, slicks and a differft stall and the front sway bar removed, ive seen mustangs and f-bodys doing it at the track...they are running low thirteens usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futuretgper Posted February 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 oh shut up....this thread has been all over the place.....the last couple posts have gone this way becuase, if u would have read the previous pages, the topic has come and gone...no new information directly relating to the 3-bar is coming anytime soon or it would have presented itself.....TGpilot...dont be lame!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I could live with massive torque steer if I had 300+ hp in my TGP. 8) Might be that bad either : Could easily be the patch of a RWD Car 8) but it is a burn out I did near my home, poor neighbors Jeff M That looks similar to the patch I left in my STE the day my tranny started to go. I've never had a problem burning off both tires in that car...and torque steer is definately there. You got WOT from a 20mph roll, and as soon as the tires are finished burning off, you better have both hands on the wheel, or you will quickly end up in a ditch or on the other side of road or something to that extent. I wouldn't say you can have too much power in a FWD car, my dads GTP makes ~400hp/450ft.lbs and yeah it doesn't have traction under about 45mph or so (basically any speed in first gear), but as long as you grab ahold of the steering wheel nice and firm, it isn't too difficult to fight the torque steer to keep it on the road, you just have to know that its coming. And about this fwd car lifting the front tires, it can't happen. My dads GTP runs 12.0's and its never lifted a front tire. It can't, it would lose traction way before beginning to lift a tire. There are GTP's running in the 10's, which also don't come close to lifting the front tires. It just can't be done. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 the tire didn't stay off the ground... it only lifted for a split second. He was running slicks on the front and broke into the 12's a couple of times before the engine went. Saw photos of this with an air gap between the tire and the pavement. BTW: it didn't start doing that until the body was already pretty twisted. Probably had more to do with the body being tweaked all to hell than the torque of the engine. Sorry for sending this thing in another direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Probably had more to do with the body being tweaked all to hell than the torque of the engine. Sorry for sending this thing in another direction. Ok fine...I won't be lame and I will explain to you in easy English how it is literally impossible for a FWD car to "TWIST" it's frame! A Front wheel drive car can not twist a frame because a FWD car's motor is mounted across the front of the car. Called a Transverse mounted engine. Any and all torque of the car rotates from the front to back or visa versa. Twisting the frame has to be done by a motor that is mounted INLINE with the frame-rails of the car. Even then you need a leverage point far enough away from the motor itself...like a rear axle :? ...to actually twist the frame-rails. Now we get into another issue. Uni-Body or Full Frame? What the hell kind of car are we bench race arguing about anyway??? No Pictures = Show me a picture of any FWD car (not AWD or RWD) pulling the front end off the ground (not wheel hopping!)...one wheel or both...and I will humbley bow down and admit defeat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus18 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 hmm lsd and bad struts=wheel hopp :?: no twisting could ever happen because of the transverse mounting of the engine. me 2 cents marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 It's a flimsy Uni-body car, and because the half shafts on chryslers are very different lengths it puts very strange torque loads onto the chassis. "High performance" Honda Civics, also a flimsy uni-body car, twist the opposite direction because the engine and transmission goes in opposite from most american cars (engine sits on the drivers side) and they have the same unequal length halfshaft problem And I repeat, It only did that after racing the car for several years. IE: didn't do it before the frame was twisted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 What the hell kind of car are we bench race arguing about anyway??? 89' Dodge Daytona Shelby Turbo 5 speed, running 20+psi and 8 injectors (mentioned above) Ran high 12s a few times before it was "retired" but usually ran low 13s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 and because the half shafts on chryslers are very different lengths it puts very strange torque loads onto the chassis. WRONG. ALL Turbo Dodges got equal length driveshafts with an intermediate shaft between the diff and the passenger side axle. non turbo cars got the unequal length setup (which i temporarily have in my GTS right now lol, and yes torque steer is just nuts!) btw, 8 injectors?!?! why not just bigger injectors and an AFPR? btw my GTS has the exact same engine & transmission as an '89 Daytona Shelby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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