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3bar map sensor


futuretgper
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horsepower goals...how many ponies do u desire?  

  1. 1. horsepower goals...how many ponies do u desire?

    • stock (205hp)
      0
    • 206-300hp
    • 300-400hp
    • 400hp+


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shift point/5' date='200 rpms, and THAT IS THE RPMS we run between once past 1st gear

[/quote']

 

 

wow i guess with my tach reading the wrong numbers i didnt know we were governed at such a low rpm...so are there any gains (more power to be had) @ higher rpm...with stock stroke and internals??

 

How fast do want a push-rod motor to spin and still be half-way reliable without major valve-spring upgrades? :shock:

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stock f-bodys are rated right at 6000 rpm they are push rod are they not....5200 is week...besides im just wondering...5200 rpm what the hell...we aren't driving gottdang desiels here!!! i was only talking raising it like to 5900 or somehting if you would see any gains...the family minivan doesnt hit revlimeter till 6k and its a 3.xL pushrod

 

How fast do want a push-rod motor to spin and still be half-way reliable without major valve-spring upgrades?

 

i wouldn't think you would need MAJOR upgrades to run around 6000rpm (if its worth it)...would you!!

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oh and with the 3bar issue...i haven't really done any work to my car so i haven't started tuning or anything' date=' but for those of you who do...how usefull/important is the 3bar MAP?? [/quote']

 

It's been done before.

 

Go to the TGP board and then the member list, find "ScotSea" on there, click on his username, and then click on "find all posts."

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futuretgp'er, some guy named "Jeff M" said this:

 

too high of rpms will do much more damage than what I was running with :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: , Jeff M

 

Looks like he was trying to make a point, maybe even for someone like you :) , might be something to it :lol: When I owned my second vehicle and was like 20 years old I would rev that thing till the valve springs floated, funny thing was it was not making any more power long before the valves floated, actually less but I did not know better back then i.e. rpm does not equal power :read: 8) And if an engine does not rev to 6 grand or more it does not mean its weak, the engine in the Syclone and Typhoons stock shift at 3,800 to 4,200 rpms at WOT (can't remember for sure, been years since mine was stock), and I think that was a pretty fast truck :lol: Wherever your power band lies in the rpms is what you should run it in, actually the long intake runners of a 3.1L make a lot of low rpm torque for this little displacement, just need to work on the higher rpm flow to make it a better balance of both.

 

So, don’t worry about rpms anymore 8)

 

Jeff M

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I'd worry about maxing out the 2bar MAP before I started thinking about going to a 3bar. Putting the programming/recalibrating issues aside, lets think about why everyone needs a 3bar sensor. Can our turbo efficiently run over 14.7 psi?? Well, I would run around 14 psi on some unleaded race gas, but I don't think I would push it any further than that. Well, then surely the next step is a turbo upgrade right. Well, first off I don't count just getting bigger wheels as a turbo upgrade because your not really helping the problem. The problem with our turbo is the turbine housing. I've only 'seen' a handful of guys that have done a turbo upgrade and I'm thinking 5 people. I was planning on a turbo upgrade(GT2871R), but I just got laid off so I don't think that it's going to happen. So until I can actually max out my 2bar sensor with regular 93 octance gas, I'm not even going to think about going to a 3bar setup. :P

 

Don't get me wrong as I like a good conversation that actually ends up accomplishing something, but I'm just trying to make you guys realize that we should focus on things that are much easier to obtain. Most people on the this board run a mid to high 14 in the 1/4 mile. I've only seen one TGP that has run a 13 and actually produced a timeslip. I'd just like to see almost all TGPs on the boards in the 13s before I saw 1 person in the 12s. I'm not trying to be negative, but I don't think it's worthwhile to put money into a 3bar setup when they could be getting a bigger turbo or putting on a 3X00 topend or a new cam. Aside from a bigger turbo, I think the next best thing to do is better heads/intake. :D

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i know there are better things to invest money into before worring about the 3bar...the other things you mentioned to name a few....but i know i, for one, would be much more confident in buying a bigger turbo if i new that i could use it to its full potential and run it over the stock fuel cut....so what im saying is that i see all these things as the next step in performance and i see them as coming hand-in-hand to get the most bang out of what we're doing...not just settling for what we can already have!

 

ok, jeff i see what your saying i was just making a point that just becuase its a "pushrod motor" doesn't mean that it can't run higher rpms safely. so if you had a balanced rotating assembly and the proper springs and rockers, capable of running a higher rpm, would you see gains?

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Couldn't we still use a 2bar sensor with a T28? Since the T28 is a T25/T3 hybrid, wouldn't 14.7psi still give a nice power boost?

 

I ran a T3 Super 60 and if it were not for the backpressure I found, would have worked fine under 15 psi, and of course been much faster and easily in the 300 to 350 hp range that I assumed most wanted, and with this poll seems to hold true 8) Have spent a great deal of time with the best guys in the turbo business, had to get a translator to talk to the Garrett Factory/Foundries in Mexico, Japan and France looking for turbine housing and tooling, been into a lot and not done yet, have some other leads and ideas need to get to so there is hope from what I am looking to offer. Yea some people are going to have to wait, but I beleive that gives time to save up some money so when I do offer this stuff up there is not like 2 or 3 sales :x :lol:

 

And as to the higher rpms, Ryan Falconer ran 8,500 rpms with a stock iron 60 degree block, but for his need to finish/win the race classes he was in, was not going to take a chance with stock rotating parts so billet crank, Carrillo rods and Cosworth pistons, though Curtis has run 7,500 rpms and is doing just fine with stock TGP bottom end 8) . Stock block will handle 350 hp and a few rpms so a good foundation to start from.

 

Jeff M

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Damn Jeff I wish you would start using paragraphs when you change a subject. :wink:

 

Jeff wrote

sorry Jud…..the runner lengths are the same, don’t forget the length of the upper AND lower, and once you do you will find the lengths are the same front to back.

 

Hey Jeff. You missed my point. :roll: Think of the air moving as a river. When a river hits a bend it slows down, when it straightens out it starts moving faster and faster as the length of the straight part increases. That’s the same problem our intakes have. The straight shot to the valves is to different regardless of what’s in the upper plenum and the fact that the inlet points directly at #6 runner doesn’t help matters. You couldn't convince me in a million years that this intake setup is meant for boost.

 

With the top end swap tuning is a breeze. There must be some reason that the design was changed. Lets face it the genII is a poor design. GenIII is equal length everything. :D

 

Jeff wrote

As for lean in any cylinders, somewhere I posted the flow of the intakes and it was not that far off, what you probably had was running a little too lean for a turbo setup on the front bank, maybe the grounds or something related to that side only.

 

I must be in limp mode cause I didn’t get that. Do you mean electrical grounds? :?: :?

 

 

Jeff wrote

Before I forget, back to the topic and using different size injectors and just to clear that one up FYI, if you do have a big (small not as important) mismatch of air flow and use different size injectors to achieve proper A/F then you are going to break, if one cylinder is making say 50 hp and another is only making 40 to 45 hp and since both are spinning the same crank, one is going to fight the other resulting in the crank being twisted not in a good way, and each defeating the power since they are not agreeing with each other (for a lack of better words). I have seen Sequential Systems added to give individual cylinder fuel control and the resulting gains were small, only were worth it for really big hp engine and pro racers needing any extra tenth or hundredth of a second.

 

No Jeff. Using the different size injectors kept me from breaking. I never so much as melted a plug after I got it dialed in. I’ll take the extra HP in one or two cyl’s rather than damage the motor. Here again is the problem with the intakes. Next time its apart I’ll check the deck height to see if I twisted the crank. :)

 

Enough for now. My wife and I just spent 6 hours at the hospital getting checked. Shit what a PIA. I think we waited 4.5 of that 6 hours and all we had done was a chest x-ray and a EKG. Oh yea we did spend about 10 minutes with the doctor. :bs:

 

Later I am worn out.

 

Jud

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Jud I am curious because I do not know...how can the flow to different cylinders be different (leaner or richer) when the entire manifold is under boost the same amount of boost?

 

Using your same analogy of a flowing river...put a dam in that river. Have 4 pipes of equal diameter coming out from the bottom of the dam. Each one of different length and bends...each one will have the same amount of flow and pressure because the force of the water trying to get out is constant from the force of the dam.

 

I am not doubting you that the plenum intake on the 3.1 Turbo cars is not the best in the world...just curious the theory behind unequal air/fuel mixtures with a pressurized intake... :wink: 8)

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Well Kenny I don't know that your dam theroy is true. :roll:

 

I don't know scientifically why the intakes are inefficent. They look inefficent and they act inefficent. I can just speculate that ist's the bends leading to the LM runners the runner length and the proximity of the ports to the TB.

 

I do know that they didn't work for me where as the 3xxx did. With the stock turbo it's not an issue. Push it with a bigger turbo and it is.

 

Jud

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Well, since all runners are the same length, and each has the same numbers of bends even if in different locations, and even if air flow in an intake is a pretty complicated subject, things are a bit more equal than you are feeling :) . When I went to Detroit and had my Gen III Heads worked on and the TGP Lower Intake/Ports welded up to fit them, I had the shop flow my the intake (and the stock TB, and a larger TB, Gen II heads stock, ported Gen II heads, Gen III heads stock and with their port work), and the flow results of both Upper and Lower Intakes combined was within 3 cfm of their average :!: I trust the shop since they did many flow projects for GM (and Pro Racers like John Force) including designing and many tests to these heads and intakes (they have the clay molds on the shelves and I saw them!) and I have copies of all this data with them changing port shapes and volume, using tulip verses nail head valves, back cutting stems, etc etc, a lot of great work that is not commonly done since not many individuals have such deep pockets to pay for it all as GM does :shock: . These guys also did designing of and testing and modifying of air inlet systems (air filter box, pipeing etc) as well as TB, Upper and Lower Intake (or a Single Intake) Heads and Exhaust Manifolds for many GM Production (as well as Proto-Type and Show Cars) engines such as the Iron Duke, 2.8, 3.1, 3100, 3.4 and 3400, the list goes on and I have a copy of all their work and saw these components and clay molds and heard the guys talk, they would learn pretty much anyone a thing or two.

 

Some, and it’s too damn involved to get much into it, besides :) :

 

You couldn't convince me in a million years that this intake setup is meant for boost.

Jud

 

but the characteristics of air flowing in an intake is not easily explained nor give well to a comparison of a river flowing since one thing a river does not flow then stop then reverse then flow then stop independently in all its branches as air flowing in an intake does. Think about this, air enters into the upper and lower intakes and does some backing up/waiting until a valve opens, when the valve starts to open air can then start flowing down an intake runner, but once the valve closes the air flow in that intake runner stops, and from the momentum of that air flow, which has energy from this moving/velocity, it must do something with that energy so it will bounce off/reverse itself back up the intake runner, similar to a wave on water that moves until it hits a barrier then bounces off and continues until the energy is used up. This wave of air coming back runs into the air in the upper plenum open area causing other factors that I won’t get into. With the size and length of the runners you can time the wave/energy you have in any intake to your advantage meaning when the wave bouncing off the valve comes back up and hits the pressure in the upper intake and this energy bounces off and joins up with new air/more energy and heads back down the intake runners, you can time the opening of the intake valve (CAM TIMING) to make use of this ramming effect (big factor in the air flow design of any engine!!!), again similar to water being held in a bucket as you slosh it once, twice and three times with the same force and find the water has gained momentum/enough energy to slosh right out of the sides of the bucket. Pretty short analogy but should get you thinking there is a lot more going on in an intake :o :) , but I am also trying to alleviate possible concerns from other owners reading this that their intakes suck (or blow :lol: ) in a bad way which they don’t. Last and this part is for everyone looking at a 3100 swap idea for whatever reason, when you change the length and size of the intake runners and the open plenum area you drastically change the breathing characteristics or Volumetric Efficiency ranges of the engine in all rpms and loads, and if your cam (CAM TIMING) it not designed to work with that different intake (as well as its ramming effect timing) then you are making things worse, not to mention the VE/Fueling Tables and Timing Tables in the stock TGP chip not being setup for the different intakes and/or cam! Changing heads is not as much work to tune for in a chip as the effects of different intakes and cams, the work to retune the entire Fueling Tables and Timing Tables will take a lot of time and the proper tools, not as easy as when we just had larger carbs we could slap on :D , though changing jets was still necessary to tune the fuel properly, but working with the timing changes needed for our engine mods from a Dizzy (distributor) is grossly outmatched by the Timing Tables in an Electronic Engine Management System.

 

Ok, enough, I can’t be starting these kinds of talks all over again, this can suck up a ton of time that I don’t have, hope this helps 8) .

 

I do want to say I hope you and the wifey got some sleep and she is doing better now :!: :!: .

 

Jeff M

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Curtis has run 7,500 rpms and is doing just fine with stock TGP bottom end .

 

Actually, the only thing stock in my bottom end is the crank and the block, but yes, the bottom end has no issues running 7500-8000 rpm.

 

I would agree that the stock Gen II intake manifold isn't the best in the world, afterall it was specifically designed too get heavy ass cars moving, so, it's got long/narrow runners.

 

But...

 

I don't feel that the intake manifold is the first restriction issue on the stock 3.1. I'd say it's the cam/head before I'd say it's the intake. For example, the turbo 3.1 Wagon I built is running 229.1 wheel HP (at 5300-5400 rpm) and 261.7 wheel ft lbs on 6 psi. Now, it does have a better intercooler than the stock TGP, and does run a T3/T4 turbo at the moment, but the only other additions was a cam, head work, and port matched exhaust manifolds. The intake manifolds are unchanged.

 

In fact, we were thinking of building this setup, then eventually going with 3100 heads with shorty headers like mine, but I didn't expect this motor too perform as well as it is. With the dyno results at 6 psi, it should reach around 270 wheel HP and 320 wheel ft lbs at the max 11-12 psi (once we dump the stock W Body ECM). More than enough for a Cavalier wagon (definately as much as I would try too push through the head gaskets, hyperutectic pistons, etc).

 

As for running a 3 bar Map, personally I would probably never attempt too run the 3.1 without internal mods past 12 psi anyways, considering the issues I had with head gaskets, etc on mine. I just wouldn't trust it too hold. Now, when I popped my head gaskets (when they were still stock paper/graphite) I was at sustained full throttle and 16 psi from 80 mph too 160 mph several times, but..... Not too mention 16 psi back then was nothing compared too what the car does at just 10 psi now, though.

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Yep, bottom end for me as related to handling power is the block and crank 8) , rods can take a lot long as not over revved, and your rpms are the most you can run safely long as no knocking. You can spin any piston much as your engine will let you, other things take them out.

 

I think the best way to really just summarize engine limits/problems/needs for everyone else here, and in looking back at many topics like this on message boards, PM and emails, ANY ENGINE can be improved upon, that is why there is an aftermarket with great parts adding tons of hp to NA engines (thank god for that!!), but because of that fact it does not mean what we or any engine owner has is bad or lame or weak or a junk engine, and one man’s misfortunes does not indicated everyone will have this problem (like broke trannies as was once talked here and elsewhere, long time since then and no breaks :roll: ), as I said before, I have purposely beat 2 engines to death and never blew a head gasket, know of 3 others who did the same and head gaskets held while pistons blew apart, rod bearings were spun and spark plugs lost their guts. I also ran 17 to 18 psi and 100 octane for 3 months (COLD WEATHER MONTHS!!!) and did oil analysis and found no abnormal wear, and during that engine’s next build-up found nothing wrong from running this, along with the head gasket still happy with me. NOT that I don’t agree there is always better as said above and I suggest ARP studs and FelPro Head gaskets with any head swap but your problem is not so much a common issue with the 3.1L motor and I don’t want to (again 8) ) do damage clean up trying to comfort the rest of the owners not to fear, or be pissed/let down about the possibilities of there being serious limits to their engines, I am not yelling at you just grumbling a little :lol: , and I did notice you qualified your (yehaa) conditions when the head gasket let go running 80 to 160mph at 16 psi, and the fact that is way more than a stock TGP turbo running 20+ psi if it could, and that once you open up the flow of the engine boost pressure will drop at the same cfm, I just don’t think everyone here will catch those details as being that key and understand all those differences :!: Some may understand and might reply here to say so, but there are more that are still learning this stuff as we all once did.

 

Also there are so many other variables to consider, and must be considered before any blanket statement can be made, case in point and I hate to knock another part of an engine that is not perfect/can benefit from the aftermarket so to say but the stock intercooler has some pretty good limits when pushed hard and if you swapped in a bigger turbo, there are some good gains to be attributed to that intercooler more than thought. Curtis, a lot of these words are to the open forum here and to ease and/or expand an understanding of things to them, not to argue or say you are wrong, I have supported and cheered a lot of your ideas and successes on the boards here and when we yacked on the cel where we both enjoyed it and learned from each other, I just know from too long being on the boards too much info can be bad in the wrong hands and not everyone (including me still learning!!) will be able to put all these things together without a ton more info, and I ain’t got time for that so quit posting this stuff so I can get some work done here :lol: Just kidding 8) .

 

Jeff M

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Guest TurboSedan
I also ran 17 to 18 psi and 100 octane for 3 months (COLD WEATHER MONTHS!!!)

Jeff M

 

how did you do this without hitting boost/fuel cut? can you eliminate the overboost protection in the chip or did you use a ziener?

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Well, that's why I threw that in there, since I can only speak from my specific experiences, like when the gaskets went, at what point the flat tappet cam couldn't take it, at what point the differential shatted, etc. Each engine setup is going too have different characteristics. So, technically I would say "I don't trust the stock headgaskets with ARP studs too tollerate a sustained 12+ psi run in higher gear/higher speed". I would admit that most people will not see that kind of situation. The closest most people would get too that kind of sustained abuse would be the track after repeated runs.

 

On the comment of power also, I don't think a lot of people realize how much of a Pain in the Ass a high HP FWD car can be. I don't know if Jeff agrees about his cars, but my car is too the point where I don't really enjoy driving it on the street anymore. It starts too become a real chore too control a car like that constantly.

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Curtis, we are doing good, ahhhh!! And YES I totally agree on there being too much hp for a FWD car (and the others things you said 8) )!!!! Seen only a few articles in magazine (who’s bills are paid by advertisers, offering too much power for a FWD) that actually admitted test driving something like a 300 wheel hp Honda and being beat by everything lame on the road since the skilled driver still just could not control the power, you are absolutely correct Curtis!! AND that is why I prefer the TGP with room already there for 245mm wide tires :-), and to address that even further I am running Nitto Drag Radials which I heard owners getting up to 20k miles of mixed fun/racing so that is livable!! If someone finds a better offset/spacer even larger width tires can be run, seen some 265/45/16 from one tire company that would keep the height of the tires so no chip changes though those are not hard, obviously true drag tires best at the track but not much for the street. There are some other areas to address FWD power and the weight shift off those front tires when you launch, but still limits which I intend to find out!!

 

Mr. turbosedan :lol: some chip changes allowed boost past where it can read, it does not stop working just it does not see anything, other than the last value, but I have never been one to tell people this very often as it is just too tempting to think it can be done and the results are major bad if one of many factors is not carefully looked at and watched and tested, scary so I don’t want to have people thinking they can just do this!!!! I am not bragging either, there was a good risk when I did it even watching everything!

 

Well back to hammering and chipping off the 6 to 8 inch thick ice damns off my roofs :evil: !!!

 

Jeff M

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I could live with massive torque steer if I had 300+ hp in my TGP. 8)

 

Might be that bad either :P : small_patch.jpg

 

Could easily be the patch of a RWD Car 8) but it is a burn out I did near my home, poor neighbors :twisted:

 

Jeff M

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I want an LSD :cry:

 

Me too.....what????...you think that patch was from an LSD equipped tranny :shock: fooled-ya :lol: Long as your car has not had too many one-wheel burn outs it will lay a patch like that too 8) If it does not then whenever/if ever you rebuild your tranny just make sure to have the steel (not soft bronze 8) ) spacers in the differential gears replaced with steel again and avoid the one-wheel burn outs :wink: I love bragging about these cars and how they dispel the myths of other lesser FWD cars :cheers:

 

Jeff M

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so right now what are the optimum/ideal, heads (ported and polished) and intake combo??

jeff did your p&p gen III heads with the worked 3.1intake run higher numbers than just p&p genIII heads with a regular 3100 intake?

 

and jeff instead of holding information back that might "hurt us" (and i am greatful for you responding in such lenth to previous comments) let some of it go and allow others to experiment and run with ur ideas. u seem to think your a one man army in this war...and while i recognize that your are the most devoted, experienced and knowledgable you have to come out with ur secrets sometime and trust that we are going to do be able to utilize your knowledge, no need for babysiting

I just know from too long being on the boards too much info can be bad in the wrong hands
....pass down the knowledge and take some of the pressure off your-self. i site the old: if you give a man a fish he eats for a day, but if you teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime....

hahah u know what i mean

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instead of holding information back that might "hurt us" (and i am greatful for you responding in such lenth to previous comments) let some of it go and allow others to experiment and run with ur ideas. u seem to think your a one man army in this war...and while i recognize that your are the most devoted' date=' experienced and knowledgable you have to come out with ur secrets sometime and trust that we are going to do be able to utilize your knowledge, no need for babysiting
I just know from too long being on the boards too much info can be bad in the wrong hands
....pass down the knowledge and take some of the pressure off your-self. i site the old: if you give a man a fish he eats for a day, but if you teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime....

hahah u know what i mean

 

Ummm, maybe you were not reading back when I used to post all that info :lol: . If only those were the reasons I don’t post so much info these days :lol: . Truth is, and this is based on my past posting of too much info (Mini Novels as some called them) from 1996 through 2003 (that’s 8 years, shit :shock: !!!) one thing always lead to another and with all the great minds working on the info I give out and was being talked about by others, there is inevitably many more lengthy talks AND REPLIES necessary by me, ya know??!! :), this passing of the knowlage as you say is not going to take the pressure off of me 8) . I have seen this happen in the past a lot to those I learned from too, but those super smart guys no longer post much since they are burned out and can’t keep starting up yet another round of talks from basics to advance (turbo's 101 through 505) and all the great ideas in between in all the areas of engine, turbos, tuning etc etc. Many said they would just save themselves this lifelong challenge and put the wealth of their knowledge on a web site, but too often there was no motivation left in those individuals. Its great to help out and I enjoy it, but before I get burned out (maybe too late in some senses) I need to take all this knowledge (while still honing it and adding more) and put it to use doing the final tests and making up the final kits. Like the efforts I put forth, money I spent and luck I had in working on heads and intakes and all those great contacts and super shops, I had to go through this same long and involved and costly process with the tranny, spending several years and numerous builds and tear-downs and new mods and test and tear-down again to finalize what I have that I feel comfortable enough to ask anyone’s money for, I am damn particular about selling anything that is not completely comprehensive, well tested, safe and delivers as promised! Same with turbo and intercoolers, nice to see some guys talk maps like its old school to them, takes a while to get to that level, but even intercoolers have a level of understanding to gain beyond the bar and plate verses tube and fin and what that means. Then there is chip tuning and all the tools to just get you able to make changes and watch your results, and nothing above or anything else you can do to your car/mod’ing will prepare you for the level of what it takes to understand about tuning an engine effectively, properly and safely. Sure you can make changes to the many fueling tables and timing tables, but do you add timing, or add fuel, what tells you that you are moving in the right directions?? (yea dyno for $$$ but that is not real world especially those with little carpet fans blowing on the engine bay/intercooler etc)...if you make the heads flow more/higher VE and add an amount (?) more fuel for the extra air, do you add more timing (which will also lean back out the A/F reading) to allow this larger A/F Mix to burn in the proper time in relationship to the piston’s locations and in making maximum power, or reduce the timing since more air will raise the dynamic compression, and more air in a canted valve/twisted wedge head will swirl faster which requires less timing, how will people know the route to take in just this area? Some of the best chip tuners I know are now all underground, only existing in a circle or nerds that can scare any beginner right out of ever touching a chip. Too often the hardest work for me posting is when someone makes a statement that they heard someone say, or read something and even though it does not really apply fully or they did not understand the meaning or whatever, are the hardest to bring back around to understanding what they really wanted and needed to know. There in lies my reason for posting such long (more so in the past) info as I am just one person making a statement that others could quote, so to address this I give people all the reasons for my statements so they can put them into their own mind as a working model, which better allows them to see and understand all the workings, and makes them better able to apply this info to their situation, or better ideas or whatever, that way no one is just quoting me, they can quote the understanding that they now have of the subject, but such dumps of info are not only long, takes days to come to a close (?), and involved but are draining for the author., I need to apply my brain power and time to getting things together that people want, need and are bugging me for while waiting forever, at least most know me enough now to believe what I will offer is what is best for their needs thoroughly tested, easiest to install and affordable best I can make it! Sure others can go their own route, all I can say is best of luck, be careful and take each step slowly, record all the data you can and as much as you can and read all that data, assume nothing, and in the end you can be successful. What is best is to go to other message boards and see their Stickies, read them but always keep an open mind, find any areas of tech info, or links to owners web sites particularly the guys that talk the best on the message forum and have most everyone’s respect as an elder statesman, and best of all links from those guys web sites!!!. Get some books, I have a mini library that covers my walls, and there are still some yet to be read/tapes to view from David Vizard, Ken Speary, but there are some other great ones that are a must read from Mr Hartman, Dr. Jacobs, Corky Bell, Bosch many many others, but even with their statements I have heard people get lost quoting like Corky’s statement about lowering compression as a patch for running more boost, true somewhat but not many people or even aftermarket companies have the resources or knowledge to redesign the combustion chamber and piston tops to achieve high engine compression with forced induction. And there are many 2000-2005 turbocharged production vehicles that still lower their compression when running forced induction, such as the more common power plants from Subie and Evo, to high-end 604 hp street car production turbo motors from Mercedes Benz. So again, never take something as absolute gospel, be humble with your knowledge and keep an open mind and you will learn more and make less mistakes.

 

One last things is if you consider the extensive levels of info about all these topics (tuning, turbos sizing/selection, heads and cams and etc, and matching those to each other!!!) to learn like going to collage, there is the 100 classes, then if you pass the 200 classes and so forth, how do you assemble such an undertaking for an open forum, or for any displaying, it would be a massive undertaking, even your collage professors only specialize in one or two areas let alone all that it takes to make more engine power that we so enjoy :lol: !!

 

Jeff M

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oh, good idea....jeff u can start a school....all of us minnesotans can stop by ur shop once a week and u can give TGP tuning lessons!!!

 

seriously though i really appreciate your time and effort, thanks for being patient with me...i don't know if u can tell but im just excited for spring to be comin round in a month or 2....want to start getting the info together. :P

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