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ASG V8 Stage II


GrandPrix34
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Wouldnt be a boring world if all our cars had the same engine ? The same color ? monochrome no less ? The same wheels/tires ? YUK !

 

Now to get you all worked up :) . Buick 90 degree V6's rule. :lol:

 

I say , drive what you like and stay out of other peoples pride, you dont belong there in the first place.

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Anyone that would buy the 4.9 caddy engine over modding/fixing a DOHC engine is a retard IMO. If you swap out a 3.1 for it...you are an idiot as well. Turbo 3.1 will kill it. Turbo 3.4 DOHC will kick its ass severely. You also have the problem of FWD and lots of low end torque. Are you going to drive around with slicks? Hell no you aren't cause you aren't an idiot. 15.1 on street tires...sign me up for that! hahahaha

 

Taylor....we know you hate the motor so STFU already. You bash a motor because your friend couldn't fix a car? Oh well, thats your loss.

 

Id take a grand national over a lot of V8s. Id take my DOHC over a lot of other engines as well. Who cares? You can keep bashing the DOHC and then try to cover your ass by saying its your opinion. Guess what, my opinion is different and you are entitled to do whatever the fuck you want. I am entitled to call you a little bitch too so where does that leave us? No where...but im going to point this out every time you bash the DOHC and immediatly say "its my opinion and I can say what I want but im not listening to anyone else".

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:cheers: :worship: :cheers:

 

as this priest once said regarding Wbodies...

"...lead us not into temptation, 2.8's or 3.1's, but deliver us a Turbo DOHC"

 

"no offense in anway regarding religion"

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by the way vegeta, i strongly support your 3.4 project and since i also want 2 really release the full potential of my "boat" i am willing to invest in your project, watever it may be regarding the 3.4. Let me know wat you need regarding R&D, equipment, funds, you name and ill see how i can hook you up!

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The Cadillac 4.9L V8 is one of the worst engine designs, ever.

That engine is plagued with cooling system/compression problems due to the floating cylinder sleeve system. The engine was originally known as the "HT4100" in the early 80's when it had a 4.1L displacement. Ask anyone who has owned that engine what "HT" stood for, they will tell you it meant "Hopeless Trash". Although the 4.9L version is improved from the 4.1L version, it still has some of the same problems that plagued the original.

 

Ben, I have no idea what Taylor was saying as he's gone back and edited it. My guess is he doesn't like the 3.4 DOHC. Big deal. You (and many others) like it. Wonderful. However, that "little bitch" comment was out of line. I'm quite disappointed to see the maturity level here has degraded to this. It's one thing to express an opinion about an engine. It's another thing entirely to personally insult someone. That was totally uncalled for. It seems to me, that it's ridiculous to make enemies over something so silly as an engine.

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sweet, its open. Ok, im sorry I used that phrase but it was making an observation on his post. Since he has deleted his posts I will take that as his way of saying he shouldn't have posted what he did.

 

So anyway....

 

grandprix34: If you can find me a 96 DOHC head, that is about all I need at the moment. I have a set I will be using but none to chop up and anaylize.

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Ben, I have no idea what Taylor was saying as he's gone back and edited it. My guess is he doesn't like the 3.4 DOHC. Big deal. You (and many others) like it. Wonderful. However, that "little bitch" comment was out of line. I'm quite disappointed to see the maturity level here has degraded to this. It's one thing to express an opinion about an engine. It's another thing entirely to personally insult someone. That was totally uncalled for. It seems to me, that it's ridiculous to make enemies over something so silly as an engine.

 

Sometimes it gets very, very stupid around here. Too bad people act like idiots sometimes. It's kind of funny because whenever I go to other forums like Jonko or AudiWorld I never come across such stupidity. This reminds me of the Taurus Performance back when owned a Ford.

 

As for motors, I think we can all agree that the ASG 5.0L V-8 is an exotic engine. GM will probably never put a 300HP V-8 into a W-Body. It would be a lot of fun to drive around in a W-Body equipped with that engine, although must of us can't afford it and wouldn't go that route. Personally I like the Supercharged 3800 Series II engine. It's powerful, reliable and you can find tons of mods for it. It's also inexpensive as well. I don't think we should be arguing about which motor is the best. Just be happy with what you have and be glad you're not driving a piece of crap Ford or Chrysler. I like all of the W-Body engines. Obviously some are more powerful than others, and some are more reliable than others, but which one is "better" depends on what you think is an engine's main function is.

 

Let's try to act like adults and remember what this topic is about.

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I remember the guy from ASG defending the 15.1 quarter time...

 

He basically said people who buy these conversions do it for the V-8 "feel" in a midsize FWD car. These are usually people who spend a lot of time in the car, like traveling salesmen.

 

Sure, I think it'd be cool...but who I shell out the cash? NO. I'd put it in to a Turbo 3.1 or something similar thats turbo...like a turbo dodge minivan! :) Can you tell I like forced induction? I must say after owning two turbo cars, I'd never go back to N/A. Turbo cars are just too much fun.

 

Jason

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Wait a minute, a turbo Cutlass Supreme? I thought the only turbo W-Body was the Grand Prix. You owned twin turbo cars? Such as the Supra or Stealth? That would've been cool. I've always wanted to drive one of those Japanese rockets. Don't waste your money on something like that guy with a Dodge Caravan running 10 second 1/4 miles. It's still a Dodge Caravan and although the performance numbers get respect, the vehicle itself is a piece of garbage. If I'm going to spend $10,000 on my vehicle, I'd try to spread it around evenly. Such as $5,000 for the Supercharged 3800 Series II and 4T65-E/HD, a $3,000 tri-coat paintjob, $2000 suspension/wheel/tire package. That is money well spent.

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I remember the guy from ASG defending the 15.1 quarter time...

 

He basically said people who buy these conversions do it for the V-8 "feel" in a midsize FWD car. These are usually people who spend a lot of time in the car, like traveling salesmen.

 

Yeah, that Caddy motor is JUNK. I know someone that bought a Lumina from ASG, and the way he made it sound is the motor was trouble from day one. At any rate, the V8 "feel" and sound are the ONLY reasons I'd even bother. It took a ridiculous amount of money to make the ASG Series II even a low 15-second car.

 

However, I saw a pimped out mid-80's Eldorado. It came with the 4.5L version of the same engine. They had some kind of custom dual exhaust on it, and it sounded MEAN. It actually sounded like a real hotrod. That little FWD car really, truly sounded as good as a built-up 72 Chevelle SS. It didn't seem to be particularily fast, but it sure sounded good. I guess if you're willing to put up with the mechanical headaches and you just REALLY want that V8 feel and sound but don't care about winning races, swapping in a Caddy pushrod V8 might be the only way to get it. It was definitely a very nice contrast to the buzzy farty sounding imports that I usually hear. It actually sounded good enough that I had briefly let myself think that engine might be a good swap candidate for the Cutlass!

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Wait a minute, a turbo Cutlass Supreme? I thought the only turbo W-Body was the Grand Prix. You owned twin turbo cars? Such as the Supra or Stealth? That would've been cool. I've always wanted to drive one of those Japanese rockets. Don't waste your money on something like that guy with a Dodge Caravan running 10 second 1/4 miles. It's still a Dodge Caravan and although the performance numbers get respect, the vehicle itself is a piece of garbage. If I'm going to spend $10,000 on my vehicle, I'd try to spread it around evenly. Such as $5,000 for the Supercharged 3800 Series II and 4T65-E/HD, a $3,000 tri-coat paintjob, $2000 suspension/wheel/tire package. That is money well spent.

 

No, I put a turbo 3.1 in my cutlass with a 5-speed. That combo makes it a pretty fun car. And no, I'd never own a foreign car, even if it was twin turbo.

 

And those minivans are cool. You can buy one for like $500, and do lots of cheap simple mods, and they turn out to be pretty fast (for a minivan). I'd never dump more than $1000 into one if I did buy one. You're right thogh after it's all said and done, it's still a minivan. Which is why I don't own one.

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for the money they want, I would convert my car to RWD. Actually i wouldnt but it would be better spent over the caddy motor.

 

I hear ya there...my friend keeps telling me to convert my Cutlass to RWD and put a Turbo 3.8 GN drivetrain in it. My reply...sure why not? Hell, let's just go AWD and use a Syclone drivetrain? He he :)

 

Jason

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It was definitely a very nice contrast to the buzzy farty sounding imports that I usually hear. It actually sounded good enough that I had briefly let myself think that engine might be a good swap candidate for the Cutlass!

 

There should be a law against ricer fartcans. It would be massivley funny if the cops cracked down on the noise the fartcans make (only for the ricers). And they should be doing this right as I drive past with my dual 3 inch exhaust, with no cat.

 

:wink:

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There should be a law against ricer fartcans. It would be massivley funny if the cops cracked down on the noise the fartcans make (only for the ricers). And they should be doing this right as I drive past with my dual 3 inch exhaust, with no cat.

 

Yeah, no kidding! That's a trend I'll never get.

WHY would you want your car to sound like it's got continuous flatulance? They DO NOT sound fast at all. I've heard mopeds that sound like they have more balls.

 

I would think the ricers would work harder at trying to perfect some kind of crazy muffler that emulates the sound of a built up V8, like something that takes the sound of the 4-cylinders and manages to multiply it to sound like 8-cylinders.

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Well, they got the "Turbo blow off valve soundmaker". Thats the ultimate ricer mod right there.

 

So when they are next to me and turn that thing on, they think "man, he is scared". And then I do it for REAL. Man, I wish that would happen. I would die of laughter...

 

The best part of their mufflers, er fartcans, is that when they're making all that noise, sounding like a chainsaw and all they're not going anywhere fast. It must just make them feel fast. Fast and Furious!

 

You know what, they need to make a movie that makes fun of fast and furious. Like a bunch of guys putting fartcans and air filters on (and stickers) and going around town getting their asses kicked by 99% of the cars they race. That 1% is the Mustang 4 cylinder they beat. Obviously the guy is only going part throttle and isn't even aware of the race. Their big street race scene is actually a couple of guys racing on a dead end road, less than a block long. Then when they lose (and they will) they sit and talk about how they missed a shift (with their autmatic trannys they are manually shifting because it's cool). Or they lost because their NOZ didn't turn on. And then the camera shows the NOZ sticker. But look under the hood, theres no NOZ...I should be a movie writer.

 

And I mean no disrespect to ricers that are actually fast. I can appreciate a car, any car, thats quick. My problem is with the ones that act all fast, and in reality, can't break 16 seconds in the quarter.

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the V8 feel?? okay Sure lets spend 8K just to cop a feel Guys.

 

The biggest Problem I see is they are using the 4.9L which is Junk even in Caddys. why not just use the doch 4.6L 300HP and get more then Just a Feel. it fits in the engine bay Just fine. Sure you have to use the caddy Tranny but Hell it makes the DTS STS and the ETC go 150MPH

then why not get that aftermarked S/C for 3500 and get 90HP more at the Ground too??

 

could never figure why they would use the Crappy 4.9L??

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The biggest Problem I see is they are using the 4.9L which is Junk even in Caddys. why not just use the doch 4.6L 300HP and get more then Just a Feel. it fits in the engine bay Just fine. Sure you have to use the caddy Tranny but Hell it makes the DTS STS and the ETC go 150MPH

 

Actually, the Northstar won't fit in the first-gen W-bodies.

I think it MAY be too long and won't fit between the strut towers, but the main problem is the heads are too wide and it won't fit without moving the firewall in. That's even assuming you use a 4T65-E or HM-282 5-speed behind it, because the 4T80-E would require extensive subframe modification as well as relocating the rack. BUT if you're going to do all the work, welding, and fabrication to move the firewall in to accommodate the Northstar V8, might as well just do an RWD conversion and use an LS1 instead!

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There was a Norstar with the 80E in a 90 something Toronado for sale. Why then wouldnt it fit in a w-body ? There you go I think that car could be had for 5000. I just saw a link to peolpe doing Norstar engines. You think the ASG is expensive! In 98 when I was looking for another car I test drove a 90 Seville with the 4100 I think. It was powerfull and was some fine car but I passed , I knew I did not want to buy over priced Caddy parts and the exhaust smelled oil. Just over 100,000 miles.

 

In defence of the ASG - if its putting 400 HP and cant do 13's theres more to the story. Also by the modifications done to the engine it sounds like they are trying to eliminate weaknesses. Why the 4.9 goodwrench engines ? They probably bought a large supply of them for a good price because the demand for that engine is now dwindling. After reviewing what actually comes with the package , they are earning their money. Thats installed ,with built tranny and presumably all computor modifications and other electrical concerns. However you now dont have the front springs to hold this thing up so now spend more.If demand is low for this conversion then the price may have to go down.

 

Like I said before I'm glad to see someone offering alternatives for various FWD GM's but I do question the pricing. I'm not sure where the extra 2000.00 cost of the HD tranny over a local rebuild. I dont know what makes Konis worth 1000.00+ . I dont understand why custom coils are 160+ apiece when HD pairs for a old heavy RWD's can be had for 140 a pair. I suppose we are paying for R&D. I dont get their coilover prices either.

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There was a Norstar with the 80E in a 90 something Toronado for sale. Why then wouldnt it fit in a w-body ? There you go I think that car could be had for 5000. I just saw a link to peolpe doing Norstar engines. You think the ASG is expensive! In 98 when I was looking for another car I test drove a 90 Seville with the 4100 I think. It was powerfull and was some fine car but I passed , I knew I did not want to buy over priced Caddy parts and the exhaust smelled oil. Just over 100,000 miles.

 

Toronado has more underhood room than a W-body. I believe it is an E-body, same platform as the Seville. If there were enough room for a Northstar, there wouldn't have been a need to make the 2.8/3.1 tilt forward for access to the rear plugs.

Now the Northstar and 4T80-E WILL fit a gen 2 W-body.

The 90 Seville has the 4.5L version which is just a tad less troublesome than the 4100. The 4100 would not have made it to 100,000 miles with oil in the exhaust as its only problem.

 

In defence of the ASG - if its putting 400 HP and cant do 13's theres more to the story. Also by the modifications done to the engine it sounds like they are trying to eliminate weaknesses. Why the 4.9 goodwrench engines ? They probably bought a large supply of them for a good price because the demand for that engine is now dwindling. After reviewing what actually comes with the package , they are earning their money.

 

Actually the "why" is because the 4.9L is the only V8 that will fit a gen 1 W-body without extensive modification and fabrication to the car itself.

It's unfortunate that this freakish aluminum block V8 with iron heads to keep the cylinders from moving around is the only V8 that will easily fit. I really wish GM had mass-produced the FWD version of the LS1 because I'm certain it would have fit a gen 1 W-body. There are significant differences between a transverse and longitudinal engine so that a RWD V8 won't go in easily at all.

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Your right about the Riv/Toro/Eldorado/Seville but they are a smaller engine compartment than the Hbody. I actually have a 86 Riv and have not yet parked it beside the Regal. They are very similar at least from memory and a distance. Alot less room in both than my 86 Lesabre.

 

So this 4.9 was a steel liner, wet sleeve engine, set into a aluminum block ? This was the downfall of the engine ?Iron heads ? Isnt that bass ackwards. Leave it to a Domestic to try a aluminum block and avoid aluminum heads. For crying out loud my 1964 Sunbeam Alpine had a aluminum head pushrod engine that could handle 12.5/1 compression and run all day long at 6000+with stock valve springs. They were a tiny, poor little English factory and they put aluminum heads and higher compression pistons in their sports cars.Not bragin or meaning to degrade the once "big three" but it really is hard to believe companys so powerful in such a resourcefull country still didnt get it. It took until the 90's and a serious market threat from imports to begin to produce OHC engines and they were (I guess) still troublesome. Ferrari had aluminum OHC engine back in the 50's. I know - expensive but WE had the resources. Datsun went to aluminum OHC in 72/73. The L series engines like the L24 or L26 used in the Datsun Z cars was bulllit proof.I know Olds did OHC and aluminum 455's but they were experimental and never production. Way off topic I know , I get frustrated sometimes with GM.

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So this 4.9 was a steel liner, wet sleeve engine, set into a aluminum block ? This was the downfall of the engine ?Iron heads ? Isnt that bass ackwards. Leave it to a Domestic to try a aluminum block and avoid aluminum heads.

 

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

The primary failure mode of the engine is coolant getting into the oil, trashing the engine virtually instantaneously.

I believe one point of failure are the seals at the bottom of the cylinder allowed coolant into the crankcase.

Another cause of failure is the iron heads. The different rates of expansion of the heads caused many cylinder head bolt failures, block failure, and also contributed to coolant entering the crankcase. I've read on the web that if one of these engine so much as overheats, it's junk in less than 60-seconds.

Why the iron heads? I can only assume it's to assure the wet cylinder sleeves stay clamped down. I believe GM had lots of problems with the wet sleeve design which is why all their current aluminum block engines have cast-in-place steel sleeves.

 

This kind of bass ackward design is not really reflective of GM as a whole. No other engine in GM's lineup has such a funky design. The 3.4 DOHC is a bit odd for a DOHC, but at least it has an excuse - it was derived from a pushrod block. The HT4100, 4.5, and 4.9 has no excuse. It was an all-new ground-up design when it came out in '82.

 

Anyway, I would not touch the HT4100 and its derivatives with a 10ft pole. They were junk from the start, why the General kept building and ATTEMPTING to bugfix that design for 12 more years is a mystery to me!

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