Steve LS Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Wow , so even the earlier 90's Seville STS's was junk ? I always wanted one of them. When did the Norstar come out ? We'll stick with the LSS I gueSS . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Yep, 92 Seville had the 4.9L pushrod engine exclusively. 93-on were available with the Northstar, and that's what I'd get. I was thinking 94 was the last year of the 4.9L, but now I'm thinking it may have been 96. At any rate, you're safe with the Northstar, although it too has some interesting problems due to its "high tech" construction. The engine block is actually 2-halves and it tends to leak oil at the gasket between the 2-halves. As far as I know, that's the most expensive common problem the Northstar has, but it obviously requires tearing the engine down completely so it's quite expensive to fix! Other than that, the Northstar is reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 I didnt mean GM did everything backwards but I did mean leave it to them to try something dumb as that. I was really talking about taking 30-40 years to produce a aluminum head engine or a OHC or DOHC engine. Look at the reputation the quad 4 got. It was possibly most likely the begining of the end for Olds. Theres nothing wrong with a DOHC aluminum head engine the japs have been making them for years hell decades. Their high milage engines too! Thats the kind of stuff that has always pissed me of about the BIG THREE all these decades and now we are starting to see the end results of this lack of concern for quality & performance engine devolopment. I'm not saying all are low quality but lets face it the US manufacturers have always kept up with the rest by making larger engines not high output per cubic inch engines. When they do try high output and get away from pushrods and cast iron stuff goes wrong. Look at these European 3.0 and less producing figures compatable with the 3.8 supercharged. The Corvette is really competitive at the track but its got over a litre and more on the other cars its competeing against. Now most car buyers dont even care they are going to buy import and thats that. I'm troubled.I was born in this country and I love it but we make less and less product every year. Its not the country I grew up in at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Well, now you're getting into other issues that I must disagree with... I don't believe in technology for the sake of technology, and I don't believe HP/Liter means anything. It may be more efficient, sure, but that efficiency figure has no overall benefit to the consumer, it is only bragging rights for the engineer. Here's something I wrote awhile back on the merits of "old technology" vs "new technology": The 3.5L DOHC "shortstar" V6 was a good engine, but it is being left to die since the 3800 Series II is more reliable, cheaper to build, physically smaller, equally as powerful, and has better fuel economy. The Northstar engine is also a good engine, but the LS1 similarly surpasses it. Also consider this: Firebird 5.7L LS1 V8 310HP, 18/26mpg (automatic) BMW 5-series 3L I6 225HP, 18/26mpg (automatic) The Firebird is 9lbs HEAVIER. German engineering comes up with an engine that consumes the same amount of fuel but has a deficit of no less than 85HP! I own a car with a DOHC engine, but personally, I prefer pushrod engines for their simplicity, FUEL efficiency, and DIY-friendliness. As a consumer who has to work for a living, I couldn't care less about engine efficiency, I pay for fuel, so I care only about fuel efficiency and getting as much power as possible out of the same amount of fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Late into the thread, lots of good and bad points. First things first, I can't stand the sound of a Honda with a 5" tip either, but then again, I can't stand the sound of a 60 degree V6 pretending to be a V8 either. Face the fact, there is nothing that can be done to a V6 to make it sound like a built V8. The 3.4 issue, here's the thing. When you have a "performance" engine, it's already hopped up more than a regular engine, so there isn't as far to go to get it to the unreliable point. I've had a 3.4, I know it's unreliable in comparison to the rest of the W-body engine lineup. So to say you'd rather have a 3.4 over a V8 isn't very smart. You can't really go much farther with the 3.4. I'd choose a 3.8 over a 3.4 any day of the week, the engine is built like a tank. Old technology, so what? The best V8 engine to date, in my opinion, is the sbc, an engine that debuted it 1955. The best V6 engine, the 3.8. Both are tried and true pushrod designs. No timing belt to snap, smaller package, reliable. The only reason to have OHC is variable valve timing. And no W-body has it, so why have OHC? 4 valves per cyl? It can be done cam in block. It has been done cam in block. I know there were other things I wanted to touch on, but I need to get back to working on fords...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 "You can't really go much farther with the 3.4." Oh so very wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Good points on the expence issue. Economics of reliability of what works compared to what is unknown. However calling OHC high tec. or new tecnoligy is a improper label. There is nothing new about OHC. I do agree on whether DOHC or DOHC 4 valves is necessary for average drivers. But I'll never consider SOHC and aluminun heads hi tec or unreliable. Only if some penny pincher tries to skimp on alloy. Is the 3.4 less reliable because of design or penny pinching ? What are its faults BTW ? However with todays low comp. engines the only benefit of aluminum is weight and OVC means a taller engine. So maybe not worth the extra expence. I dont know much about your milage figures but my impulse is to doubt them. Them not you. One would think that if he kept his foot out of a big block he would get the milage same as a 350 one kept his foot out of but it just doesnt work that way because of the volumn used to fill the extra displacement. So I dont understand why a more efficient smaller voulmn engine would burn as much ? Older Datsun L series engines were chain driven camshaft. I also realize OHC on a V6 is more complicated than a four and all the extra work involved with say a blown head gasket. Or water pump. But its not really that much its just the initial syc of having to remove a few extra items. I dont know the tecnical stuff and GM has come a long ways with stock power on pushrod engines thats for sure but the Japs are still killing us in sales , performance and road tests. Dont get me wrong I love my Buick V6's all of them. I saw a 85 Buick Wildcat concept car. It was a two seater with a mid-mounted straight not transverse aluminum head SOHC injected 3.8 V6. 250 HP I was drooling.Bet thats fun to drive. What do you call a SOHC V6 ? A dual SOHC ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 The 3.4 problems include the oil pump drive o ring tat is an issue on all the non distributor 60V6s out so far. The Intake gaskets have caused problems for quite a few people because the thickness of the gasket means it is prone to stretching and contracting under heat and cool off. The alternator is an issue on all the 60V6s as well but the location on teh 3.4 DOHC pisses most people off. The belt is something pushrod guys like to talk about but its a DOHC so its either belt or chain anyway. The internals aren't an issue with the motor. For the timing belt and alternator, there are pictures and directions on the 60degreev6 site showing how to make your own tools and do the procedures. For performance, I prefer the DOHC. Everyone talks about the strength of the 3800 yet no one has broken a DOHC from too much power that I am aware of. You cant have a reputation if no one is doing anything with you. NA vs NA there is no comparison, so it comes down to the breaking point on the DOHC as to whether or not it has more overall potential or not. In a FWD application, I dont see much of a point in worrying about which can pull off 600hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBuick Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 I own both motors, and my 3.4 is hooked to a 5-speed (I can't imagine it as an auto, it just doesn't seem made for that). They are both, and they have their strong points and weaknesses. I will say, however, when I first got the DOHC, it was "decent", but after adding a few simple hop-ups from Ben, such as his chip, dogbones, and underdrive pulleys, the car has responded fantastically and the powerband has stretched from 4200-5800 to 3500-6800 (rpms). It has more potential that most believe, but yes the maintenance costs are higher. the reason being is less poor design (though the o-ring is a very bad design, but shared by all the 60deg V6s) but rather the size of the motor makes things harder to get to aka the alternator. The 3800 has tons and tons of low end grunt, but it runs out of breath very early. Unfortunately my "soft" Buick auto tranny with a very high gear ratio for highway cruising stifles the engine alot. I will mod this motor alot more after I get it hooked to a 5-speed. I realize that the problems I have with the 3800 are also easily fixed, but i want to get my 5-speed in there first. Stock for stock, both cars ran about equal, with the 3.8 jumping ahead right away and the 3.4 blowing by after about 45mph. for around town and the average driver, the instant thrust of the 3.8 is king, but for a "sporty" car, the 3.4 is fantastic. there is no need to fight over these motors, whichever one you have you will most likely like better, but understanding the pluses, minuses, and differences of the different designs is most important. I have heard awful things about Quad 4s, but I lately have an increased interest in them, particularly since seeing that Quad 4 stick shift Olds on ebay. I'd love to drive that car and try it out, regardless of what reputation the motor has. Just be happy you're not driving a FORD!!!!! -tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Lets just say that everybody has their own favority. Isn't that why we all own GM instead of another make???? And I will argue to the death with anyone who says the DOHC is unreliable. More expensive, harder to get to things, maybe. Unreliable, no. I have owned both a 3.1 and DOHC, both have their own quirks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Is the DOHC V6 in the GP and Z34 and recent Intrigue the same engine ? Good observation on the 3800 something happens around 80-90 MPH thats not so noticeable in lower gears. Its like some barrier. Its said to be a softly camed engine which must also have alot to do with its reliability. I also noticed my Regal could actually benefit by shifting a few hundred RPM's sooner at WOT than it does. However the L67 revs to 6000 no problem and pulls like crazy from 65-110. Its a trip really. If you put it down to pass you are on the guy your passing faster than expected I mean on him. Normally you stay back (I dont tailgate) , kick it down, gain speed and make your pass. With the L67 when you stay back and kick it down you must go for lane at the same time because you have about 2 seconds and your going to hit him. If you hold it down all the way until the pass is made and head back over when you look down your doing 90 and about to slam into the next poor soul . I cant imagine what the Grand National must be like. I'd like a TGP drive too. Especially on some of my back roads. They must handle great with those tires and suspension. No I dont drive like that all the time. The LSS is the wifes car anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 TGP Rides----> $50 a piece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian89gp Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Is the DOHC V6 in the GP and Z34 and recent Intrigue the same engine ? Nope. The DOHC is a 60* engine and the Intrigue is a 90*. The Intrigue is based off the Northstar and mini-Northstar (Aurora) while the DOHC is based off the 2.8/3.1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBuick Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 ood observation on the 3800 something happens around 80-90 MPH thats not so noticeable in lower gears. Its like some barrier. Its said to be a softly camed engine which must also have alot to do with its reliability. I also noticed my Regal could actually benefit by shifting a few hundred RPM's sooner at WOT than it does. I notice those exact same things, maybe it is specific to Buick? Lorenzo and I talked about camming up the motor, I'd love to do that and see how it responds. -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 Well I dont know if its Buick specific. The L67 in 97Olds LSS does not die out but you can really feel the computor backing off and that 60E or 65E has the slush shift. I really dont know what tranny I have? I can see a Thrasher shift kit in its future. Its great for normal driving and is silky smooth which is what they design for for luxury cars. The 91 Regal Limited shifts firm but as I said it could shift sooner at WOT. Its fine for normal driving. The 86 Riv. w/3.8 I have only drivin illegally up the hill and back twice about 5 miles total so I cant say much there. It now has fuel pump problems again and I have too much else going on. It was a 200.00 or to junk yard 92,000 mile original owner car,clean except paint, with engine electrical problems so I couldnt pass it up , even though I did not have time yet. I had it running great and was starting body and paint work when new NAPA fuel pump stopped again. It did go like hell ! and felt more like the Regal does than our soft riding 86 LeSabre Limited The 86 LeSabre w 3.0 we drove for 80,000 miles and I never really did much WOT with that except passing. Its in mostly restored retirement so I have not driven that in a while either. But that did shift soft and definenatly was out of power before it shifted. Case you dont know , the 3.0 was HO not that it had much - 125 HP but it had 9/1 comp. and got peak HP at a little higher RPM's than 3.8 but I have no confirmation on whether it was a different camshaft. They look the same from the outside. It felt like more than 125 but that was most likely torque. A snappy little engine. Unless GM used different shift valving which I know they did for the TGP but on the 3.8 or 3800 cars I dont think they did that I've heard of. So I dont think its a Buick thing. The trannys may be set up one way and its a compromise between the 60V's & 90V's . How about higher ratio rockers like mentioned in current post for 60V's. The book lists cam lobe lift - 88 3800 at .245" each & the 89-93 at .250 I & .255 E that aint much.I know its compounded at rockers but alittle more might help make it a longer winded engine. I still dont think it would last long at 6000 -6500 but it be nice to have more at 48-5500 with 6000 available. We should move this topic somewheres else were way off ASG implants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy_ty Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 I've been looking at that site and I think those guys are really screwing anybody that coughs the money up. Multiply that by 4 and youve got a Corvette. Is that worth 1/4 of a Vette ? Did you guys check there prices for suspension stuff ? Never mind that the prices keep going up every 2 weeks ! 1800 will get you a L67 maybe even with a tranny. Hell , I bought our 97 LSS L67 60,000 miles for less than that engine. Does that engine come with leather seats , CD, sunroof & 4 tyres Sorry guys being primarly a H body owner I was glad to see Domestic performance come around. I said about time ! Then I see the extreme capitalizm. Must be money is alot easier to come by over there on the West Coast. The prices are set buy the builders and yes there has been some changes. Believe me I am still paying into the company it makes no money. I will eventually sell the boring usual stuff but only once all the fun stuff is found or produced. For example there is a 4t80-e with a limited slip that will take 600hp but it will cost you over 4000.00us not my price choice but it is available and eventually ill put it on the site. Just for the record the coil over for the caddy is a steal because the struts for that car cost over 600.00 each and with an install at the dealer they cost over 700.00. Once again not my price. The w body coil over is going to go up in price but not by much and there is no other company making the option at this price. I will continue to provide more options as they become available or make them available but I do not always set the price so specialty items will usually not be cheap. The drop coils for the h body that are a one off product will cost you 800.00 from the factory I pass on my price at 650.00 and don’t charge anymore than shipping. So please don’t place me as a gouger behind my back when I go out of my way to provide the options and knowledge to put our cars on the aftermarket map. I will keep trying to bring down prices but I am not rich so I can’t give it away for free. Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy_ty Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 To defend ASG they had the guts to make an option with what they had. The next option that has no limitations and can be made to put out 1200hp is the 4.6l The fwd format can take 600hp without any major problems. The v8 can smog at 400-470hp. You cannot smog a 3.8l at 370 let alone 470hp. The cost to swap an engine either in the cost of your time or the cost to have it done should be included in any real price breakdown. A good l67 with the computer and all the needed parts will cost around 1800-2000.00 Same for a Northstar 4.6l So the idea was made real by ASG and soon the final step will be the 4.6l It will cost around $5700.00 to $8700.00 to have a 4.6l swapped into your car and yes Domestic Performance makes a grand total of $00000.00 dollars out of each deal. Once each type of car is done we will sell kits. Still the cost will not be cheap, but the 450hp Bonneville or GP is well over 18.000.00 and the 4.6l can be had for less. Oh and reaches 600hp with a much cheaper bill. There is the option of a rwd LS1 kit and that also will be coming, but we are still looking for a beta tester who is willing to spend the money to get it done. Soon as we get a beta tester we will build it. There are no limitations just haters. If you are interested in price breakdowns on the coil over kits I can supply other companies making similar product charging over 2000.00 for each kit. Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Ty you must not have read this one. second and third paragraph apply to the ASG & DomPer. There was a Norstar with the 80E in a 90 something Toronado for sale. Why then wouldnt it fit in a w-body ? There you go I think that car could be had for 5000. I just saw a link to peolpe doing Norstar engines. You think the ASG is expensive! In 98 when I was looking for another car I test drove a 90 Seville with the 4100 I think. It was powerfull and was some fine car but I passed , I knew I did not want to buy over priced Caddy parts and the exhaust smelled oil. Just over 100,000 miles. In defence of the ASG - if its putting 400 HP and cant do 13's theres more to the story. Also by the modifications done to the engine it sounds like they are trying to eliminate weaknesses. Why the 4.9 goodwrench engines ? They probably bought a large supply of them for a good price because the demand for that engine is now dwindling. After reviewing what actually comes with the package , they are earning their money. Thats installed ,with built tranny and presumably all computor modifications and other electrical concerns. However you now dont have the front springs to hold this thing up so now spend more.If demand is low for this conversion then the price may have to go down. Like I said before I'm glad to see someone offering alternatives for various FWD GM's but I do question the pricing. I'm not sure where the extra 2000.00 cost of the HD tranny over a local rebuild. I dont know what makes Konis worth 1000.00+ . I dont understand why custom coils are 160+ apiece when HD pairs for a old heavy RWD's can be had for 140 a pair. I suppose we are paying for R&D. I dont get their coilover prices either. You said "There are no limitations just haters." No hatred but you gotta hate the prices. Its a matter of economics. I could get a 97 Riviera or Aurora for the price of thats engine or less. Thats the option I would choose. Like I said I got the LSS for that, so its only got 240/300 , when she gets done putting 15,000 miles a year on that car does she need 400 ? It still kicks butt on everything its come up against yet. I just saw a set of ebiachs (sp) for some car . I forget the price but you are way off. If I had a GP with the L67 I would spend some money at thrasher not put a Cadallic engine in it. If I bought a 89/90 Eldorado for 1500, I be calling you on the phone but other wise I'll play with my factory delivered engines and be happy with small gains. Trying to sell someone on the V8 "atmosphere" or "feel" or "sound" or "prestige" just isnt going to cover the check. You could but a couple of drivable 60/70's GM cars for 10,000 . I just dont get the economics of it. People want upgrades they dont want to get a loan to get them. I love challenges and projects just like you and I really am glad to see ya trying but I believe you need to talk to your suppliers because I just dont get some of those prices. I dont really care what Caddy charges for a strut or to install one.I dont need Caddys latest gold plated, overly complicated, wait until this system starts acting up suspension. I can get KYBs fronts for 70.00 rears for less why are ones just alittle shorter 250.00 each + my old ones ? Stuff like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy_ty Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 I agree the price is crazy on the engine kit but it does include the whole instillation. I figure you ask any professional to install your engine swap including the wire splicing and the cost posted will gain a little more respect. Still I understand the issue of the 400hp limitation on the 4.9l engine. Knowing this is your limitation bothers some people. So how many W bodies have 400 or more hp? I would say not many. I would hazard the guess it cost them over time more than or close to 10000.00. I love what Scott from intense racing has done for the w body but it is also expensive. Very expensive, but you are not hacking on him? Why not? His max is around 500 hp and that will grind the current 4t65-e. I am sure as we post Scott is fixing that 4t65-e problem and it will not be cheap. Great options very expensive. Same with the zz performance supported isp centrifugal sc. all great options but "expensive" not free. So why attach what my store brings to the table? Just because you and I cannot afford it does not mean it is not worth it for the people who can. I can get you a 4.6l in a newer style w body reaching the fwd limit of 600hp. rwd it will go as high as 1200hp. The best part is in California a 400-470hp caddy swap is smog legal. The "other" v6 big hp options available are not. Sorry if you put more than the 300-370hp into a w body with a 3.8l it is not smogable. So until that changes the entire populations of all the smog states will be stranded other than swapping in a v8. The 4.6l will eventually come in a kit form but it will once again not be free. Currently we are working with beta testers to make arrangements to make this kit. Once again to be involved is not cheap but you are obviously not charged for R&D. The sad thing is a v8 ford focus will blow you all away and they are willing to push the companies to provide for them and to support them. So until you can beat that rwd ford focus go home. The w body is behind times because of your kind of attitude. You are dead wrong in regards to the coil over kit. You find a proper replacement coil over for the 1996 Seville or Elderado and you will find either my coil over or the new kit we will soon be offering. Both will work the new kit coming will be cheaper but not adjustable. The fact is I use engineers and professionals at the top of there game to make the parts we sell. This way when you crash your parents can’t sue me for killing you. lol liability is the smart mans game and when some buddy of yours hacks your car apart for ya and you crash, what’s he gonna do? Pull out his piggy bank? I believe in doing the job once and properly. Thrasher heads for example will cost you a mint but they are worth it because they have done their research and perfected the product. So has Intense Racing. Both head jobs are far from worth the amount paid in labor but good luck finding a equal. Once again their product is the best! You can cut your springs if you want to save money, go ahead and look on the GP forums site and see what people say about cutting springs. You can also buy W Body coil overs and do them yourself cheaper. Still neither are free. http://domesticperformance.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/27_58_221_227/products_id/132 The fact is no one can lower your w body with coil overs properly other than the pro's and I have the ability to provide the kit. I also have a racing based kit coming for older W body with the rear leaf style suspension. Not cheap but has been tested and is the cheapest way to set your suspension up with an adjustable race quality suspension. RSM makes a great kit but it is not adjustable. This doesn’t make it bad but it is not adjustable so the price is lower. The fact is the cost of the coil and the sleeve can be had for cheaper 300.00 but to buy a professionally built coil over kit is not cheap. You can make your own and if you are capable go for it, but most are not able to do this or don’t want to spend the time. So you are "forced" to pay a professional to build it for you, this costs money sorry can't avoid it. I understand the need for reasonably priced options but the fact is it cost alot of money to do the R&D and if there are not millions of Hondas buying your R Sticker it will cost more. There are no store bought struts that are adjustable that will work with the W Body (front and rear) that will let the car drop 3" or more and come back up without causing bottoming out or other problems. They can be made and there are companies available but the cost is not cheap. Nothing personal Steve Ls but being singled out does not help with my response to your comment. I am also not wealthy and cannot afford a 10.000.00 swap without getting a second, but I don’t think using your kind of attitude will help. I am still interested why you singled me out? I will be reducing costs where I can but the fact is a Tercel is cheap in all ways and a Ferrari is expensive in all ways. Some people want a Ferrari for the price of a Tercel. Sorry it’s still a fantasy Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LS Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Ty I didnt single you out. It just appeared that way because this topic was on the ASG engine and I tied it into Domestic Performance.. That may have been incorrect. Did you read this word for word ? " In defence of the ASG - if its putting 400 HP and cant do 13's theres more to the story. Also by the modifications done to the engine it sounds like they are trying to eliminate weaknesses. Why the 4.9 goodwrench engines ? They probably bought a large supply of them for a good price because the demand for that engine is now dwindling. After reviewing what actually comes with the package , they are earning their money. Thats installed ,with built tranny and presumably all computor modifications and other electrical concerns. However you now dont have the front springs to hold this thing up so now spend more.If demand is low for this conversion then the price may have to go down. Like I said before I'm glad to see someone offering alternatives for various FWD GM's but I do question the pricing. I'm not sure where the extra 2000.00 cost of the HD tranny over a local rebuild. I dont know what makes Konis worth 1000.00+ . I dont understand why custom coils are 160+ apiece when HD pairs for a old heavy RWD's can be had for 140 a pair. I suppose we are paying for R&D. I dont get their coilover prices either." I dont think that was harsh. I think the last paragraphs are fair questions. I'm not to impressed with Thrashers price on their intercooler either. Most of these places that sells parts for Domestic cars . Everythings got a huge price tag on it. Not somewhat more expensive but alot more expensive. Its like a big standoff. No one wants to build the parts unless people are lined up to buy them and no one wants to buy them because they are ALOT more expensive. Combine that with the fact that in the eyes of most guys that want to toy with their car see very little is available for the GM's but you can do lots with the imports. Its changing fast and with that prices may as well. My attitude is not that bad. I have spent my whole live repairing machinery and fabricating upgrades. Maybe that makes me very cost effective minded. So I see I bought my Regal for less than 4 Konis, it makes me ask questions. I'm also not one that would spend 1000 on after market wheels either or highspeed rated tires for my car that rarely sees 85 but many people do spend on such stuff. So I should have left the topic alone. I am sorry I singled you out as it worked out to be and also that I look at economics as I do, but please remember that I said this "Like I said before I'm glad to see someone offering alternatives for various FWD GM's" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy_ty Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Sorry I went off I was dealing with an ex this week makes me ugly. Basically there is no lower strut made for the GP no one makes one. The only option is to get a good rebuilder to rebuild appropriate struts to work at the cut level. For adjustable coil over struts it comes to 450.00 a strut. With a koni insert it will be another 50.00 per strut. You are right it is a pain to have our cars cost so much to mod compared to other makes. I am working on a few deals with my builders and any chance I get to reduce the cost while maintaining the quality I will take. Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyZ71 Posted March 23, 2023 Report Share Posted March 23, 2023 I drove the ASG 5.0 and Grand Pri 3.8 GTP supercharged back in the day and can confirm the GTP would destroy the ASG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94 olds vert Posted March 23, 2023 Report Share Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) I don't think anyone has dug up a thread that hasn't been posted in for over 2 decades. That might be a new record here. Edited March 23, 2023 by 94 olds vert Raffaelli and pwmin 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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