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1995 gtp 4t60-e to 4t65-e swap

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#1 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:20 AM

Okay so I found one thread about this died in 03 and pretty said can not be done without a motor swap and computer change so on. but from what I have gathered it's essentially the same tranny controlled the same way. They even have the same gear ratio 1st to reverse. However certain models have diffrent ratios. But if I have looked enough the m15 from a 97 grandprix with the L36 motor should be the same ratios and controls. But then wouldn't I need some stuff from a 97 grand prix not a 96 to make it work? Also the m15 has the same size torque converter 245mm. I understand I need to swap to obd2 first but want to get this planned out better in the mean time.

#2 Imp558

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:26 AM

Totally different critters from a control point of view.


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#3 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:39 AM

What I mean is both are completely electronically controlled. Both have automatic transaxles and electronically controlled torque converter clutch.

#4 digitaloutsider

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:57 AM

A 1997 L36 is still a 4T60-E. The L36 didn't get the 4T65E until 1998.

 

As for the 60-E vs. 65E, They're not even remotely electronically similar. The 4T60-E is relatively basic, still vacuum modulated, etc. The 4T65E is completely electronically controlled. PWM pressure control, PWM TCC circuit. It's not even close.

 

You will need a PCM that supports running the 4T65E, in which case the only LQ1 year was 1997. I just have no idea what tuning options would be available for the 97 LQ1. Maybe Saar can chime in.


Shaun 

   

2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90º V6 | 4T65E-HD  

Gen V M90, 2.9", 1.9 RRs, 60lb injectors, E85, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" stainless exhaust, Intake, 104s, 180° t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body brakes, F&R GMPP sways, Tuned. 

 

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited 5.9L 360ci Magnum Pushrod 90º V8 | 46RE | NV249  

Flowmaster 50 SUV muffler, 180° t-stat, CAI, 8.5mm wires, does sick burnouts.

 

"Ed, you don't have time to turn the J-car into a Cadillac.." - Peter Estes


#5 Imp558

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:02 AM

Totally different critters from a control point of view.


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"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough"  - Mario Andretti

 

1996 Regal L67/4T65E-HD swapped

1980 Dodge Sno-Commander

1984 Dodge Prospector

1968 Empi Imp on '67 Pan


#6 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:53 AM

Totally correct on year. I was actually referring to the m15 model from a 97 lumina or monte.

#7 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:57 AM

I meant you are totally correct on the year. But the m15 4t65e from a 97 lumina or monte wpuld or should rather be same gear ratio and same torque converter size but would it bolt up to my lq1 in my 95? And what would I need from one of those lq1 cars to make it work?

#8 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:58 AM

I was told on here a obd2 conversion opens the door for me to use the 4t65e transmission

#9 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:22 AM

But also if I had a 97 lumina or monte with the lq1 and the 4t65e tranny wouldn't it be simpler to just swap entire motor and tranny? And use the other cars electronics? Or adapt what I have to adapt? Or would I need to change my entire wiring harness?

#10 Imp558

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:30 AM

http://gmtuners.com/transmission/


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"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough"  - Mario Andretti

 

1996 Regal L67/4T65E-HD swapped

1980 Dodge Sno-Commander

1984 Dodge Prospector

1968 Empi Imp on '67 Pan


#11 digitaloutsider

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:37 AM

I have no idea what an "M15" transmission is, I'm sorry. Any GM Metric bellhousing transmission is going to physically "bolt up". "Bolting up" is not the problem, the issue is electronics.

 

If you want to stick with the LQ1, your best bet is to find a 97 Lumina LTZ/Monte Z34 parts car, which is going to give you the right transmission, the right wiring harness, the right PCM, and all of the 96+ intake parts. That is your simplest path forward. But again, I really need Saar to chime in here as to what the available tuning solutions are for the 97 LQ1 PCM. 

 

You CAN stick with your current PCM and current transmission, but OBD-I style tuning sucks. Being able to flash in-car is a huge advantage.

 

(I still support an L67/4T65E swap over dicking with this LQ1 stuff. You're going to be going into a lot of this completely blind with no support as I don't know anyone who actually has done this swap and tuned it.)


Shaun 

   

2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90º V6 | 4T65E-HD  

Gen V M90, 2.9", 1.9 RRs, 60lb injectors, E85, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" stainless exhaust, Intake, 104s, 180° t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body brakes, F&R GMPP sways, Tuned. 

 

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited 5.9L 360ci Magnum Pushrod 90º V8 | 46RE | NV249  

Flowmaster 50 SUV muffler, 180° t-stat, CAI, 8.5mm wires, does sick burnouts.

 

"Ed, you don't have time to turn the J-car into a Cadillac.." - Peter Estes


#12 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:40 AM

M15 is a model of the 4t65e tranny if u go on google and type in 4t60-e transmission it will bring u to a Wikipedia page telling you all about the 4t60-e and 4t65e transmission,applications,gear ratios and so on there is diffrent models of the 4t65e for different gm cars

#13 digitaloutsider

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:44 AM

For clarity's sake, I'd suggest going by the actual transmission codes that Imp558 provided in the link above.


Shaun 

   

2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90º V6 | 4T65E-HD  

Gen V M90, 2.9", 1.9 RRs, 60lb injectors, E85, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" stainless exhaust, Intake, 104s, 180° t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body brakes, F&R GMPP sways, Tuned. 

 

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited 5.9L 360ci Magnum Pushrod 90º V8 | 46RE | NV249  

Flowmaster 50 SUV muffler, 180° t-stat, CAI, 8.5mm wires, does sick burnouts.

 

"Ed, you don't have time to turn the J-car into a Cadillac.." - Peter Estes


#14 TpottsThe1

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:02 AM

There is 5 diffrent models of the 4t65e the one in the 97 lumina and monte is the m15 model code being 7ysb. I want Saab to get in here too I do agree the easiest route woukd be with a lumina or monte parts car. Leaning more towards the lumina but that still doesn't tell me what all I'm going to have to do. But it will be easier with a parts car in front of me forsure then I will visually be able to see the differences and work to swap/splice them in. I am in favor of that swap to just not in my 95 gtp lol now I get another grandprix se with the 3.1 I'm going to definitely do that. I wanna do this first I understand anything to do with a lq1 is custom. And I'm not scared to do the work. I just wanna make sure I'm doing it right. And that it is possible.

#15 55trucker

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:28 PM

The *M*15 is the early 4T65e trans that made use of the same smaller dia torque converter as used in the earlier 4T60E trans,

 

In my opinion (and take it for what you feel it's worth) if you intend on bolting a lung unto an LQ1 engine, you need to replace the trans, Get the 4T65HD, all of the N/A engines used the 4T65E, all of the blown engines received the HD trans.

The later versions of this trans were more reliable than the earlier versions due to updated improvements.


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#16 Nas Escobar

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:05 PM

Okay so I found one thread about this died in 03 and pretty said can not be done without a motor swap and computer change so on. but from what I have gathered it's essentially the same tranny controlled the same way. They even have the same gear ratio 1st to reverse. However certain models have diffrent ratios. But if I have looked enough the m15 from a 97 grandprix with the L36 motor should be the same ratios and controls. But then wouldn't I need some stuff from a 97 grand prix not a 96 to make it work? Also the m15 has the same size torque converter 245mm. I understand I need to swap to obd2 first but want to get this planned out better in the mean time.

 

The  97 GP with the L36 had a 4T60E, not a 4T65E. Interesting enough, it was the 97 LQ1 Lumina (extremely rare) and Z34 Monte Carlo that had a 4T65E. It's going to be a hard find as most 2nd gen Chevy W bodies (they're really considered 1.5 since they only updated the rear suspension) were sold with the 3.1 pushrod. 

 

If I recall correctly from my old transmission woes, the 3.4 DOHC got the highest final drive ratio at 3.42, the 3.1 MPFI/SFI got 3.32 and the 3800 (Buick only) got 3.28 as its final drive ratio. 

 

Honestly, the 4T65E was made up until 2011, and the HD version of it was last found 

 

This M15 nonsense (is that an RPO? I'm not sure where you got that from), according to Wikipedia (insert a shitload of grains of salt here) had a 3.29 FDR. As I stated earlier, the LQ1 received a 3.42 FDR. At that point personally, I'd rethink that and come up with a newer, 4T65E-HD, as that would perform better. The newer the trans, the better off your reliability is.

 

It may be best to look into a L67 GTP trans from the 3rd generation W and see if you could run that with a 97 PCM. From what I've read, a 96 PCM is the hardest one to tune.  The Lacrosse one would work too.

 

Totally correct on year. I was actually referring to the m15 model from a 97 lumina or monte.

 

I quoted this because in your original post, you mentioned a 97 GP. If you're simply upgrading your 95 GP to a 97 MC that's fine but you're still going to have a transmission with weaker internals compared to HD and if you really plan on turboing the car, you want to get rid of the car's weakest point, which is the Transmission.

 

But also if I had a 97 lumina or monte with the lq1 and the 4t65e tranny wouldn't it be simpler to just swap entire motor and tranny? And use the other cars electronics? Or adapt what I have to adapt? Or would I need to change my entire wiring harness?

 

It may be, but remember that if you swap over to 96/97, you're making the LQ1 interference and it will be easier to grenade once you have a Turbo on. Simplest way is adapting the 96/97 harness to your C100 connector (located on the firewall). Most folks that swap W's do it this way rather than rebuilding the car to accept the new wiring harness. You would still have to tune and delete certain aspects of the 96/97 style engine in the PCM as there's certain things 94/95 engines didn't have.

 

There is 5 diffrent models of the 4t65e the one in the 97 lumina and monte is the m15 model code being 7ysb. I want Saab to get in here too I do agree the easiest route woukd be with a lumina or monte parts car. Leaning more towards the lumina but that still doesn't tell me what all I'm going to have to do. But it will be easier with a parts car in front of me forsure then I will visually be able to see the differences and work to swap/splice them in. I am in favor of that swap to just not in my 95 gtp lol now I get another grandprix se with the 3.1 I'm going to definitely do that. I wanna do this first I understand anything to do with a lq1 is custom. And I'm not scared to do the work. I just wanna make sure I'm doing it right. And that it is possible.

 

SaaR not Saab. 

 

Lumina and Monte Carlo are the same exact car, but the Lumina is a 4 door and the Monte Carlo is the coupe version of the Lumina. There would literally be no difference in powertrain getting a Lumina over a Monte Carlo HOWEVER the 3.4 DOHC 95-97 Luminas are very rare compared to Z34 Monte Carlos of the same vintage. 

 

It may help you to find a JY in your area that has 2 cars with the LQ1 and go from there, that way you can compare 94/95 to 96/97. For the record, there's 3 versions of the LQ1... First one that was built between 91 and 93, 94 and 95 which are considered OBD1.5 and the final one for OBD2 built in 96 and 97. All of them have distinct features that are different but for the most part 91-95 interchange mechanically whereas 96 and 97 are different.

 

For harvesting aspects, you really need to find a 94 or 95 Grand Prix, Cutlass Supreme, 95 Monte Carlo Z34 or 94 Lumina Z34 (coupe version of the 1st gen Lumina sedan) at the yard and compare them to a 96-97 Z34 Monte Carlo in the same yard. Difficult feat, but at least you could run back and forth.

 

If you don't know these resources yet, check out ROW52.COM and LKQPICKYOURPART.COM they will come in handy


2003 Pontiac Grand Am (01/12 - 08/13)

1994 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme

2002 Chevrolet Camaro (09/13 - 07/16)

1996 Infiniti G20

1993 Chevrolet Lumina Z34

1989 Buick Regal Limited (06/16 - 01/17)

1994 Chevrolet Cavalier RS

2009 Pontiac G6


#17 Imp558

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:43 PM

Ok, none of this is relevant. If you go to a 4T65 the PCM will change. It'll be far more important to get a tranny that matches the PCM so the shifts are right or you'll need programming. If you're planning on recalibrating the PCM anyway then you can look through that link and pick out a tranny that has gears you like.
  • White93z34 and Nas Escobar like this

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"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough"  - Mario Andretti

 

1996 Regal L67/4T65E-HD swapped

1980 Dodge Sno-Commander

1984 Dodge Prospector

1968 Empi Imp on '67 Pan


#18 TpottsThe1

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:11 AM

So I did discover last lastnight that lumina z34 are rare with lq1 and if I was reading correctly they didn't make one in 97 anymore except 4dr. They are just monte carlos. As for the 4t65e-HD I really only want to swap because of after market support shift kits hardened parts coolers and so on. Would that support still be there for the 97 65e?. So basically I want swap my 95 gtp to a 97 monte z34 obd2 system and pcm and tranny? That being said would it be even harder to get a 65e-hd to function behind a lq1?

#19 TpottsThe1

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:11 AM

The  97 GP with the L36 had a 4T60E, not a 4T65E. Interesting enough, it was the 97 LQ1 Lumina (extremely rare) and Z34 Monte Carlo that had a 4T65E. It's going to be a hard find as most 2nd gen Chevy W bodies (they're really considered 1.5 since they only updated the rear suspension) were sold with the 3.1 pushrod.    If I recall correctly from my old transmission woes, the 3.4 DOHC got the highest final drive ratio at 3.42, the 3.1 MPFI/SFI got 3.32 and the 3800 (Buick only) got 3.28 as its final drive ratio.    Honestly, the 4T65E was made up until 2011, and the HD version of it was last found    This M15 nonsense (is that an RPO? I'm not sure where you got that from), according to Wikipedia (insert a shitload of grains of salt here) had a 3.29 FDR. As I stated earlier, the LQ1 received a 3.42 FDR. At that point personally, I'd rethink that and come up with a newer, 4T65E-HD, as that would perform better. The newer the trans, the better off your reliability is.   It may be best to look into a L67 GTP trans from the 3rd generation W and see if you could run that with a 97 PCM. From what I've read, a 96 PCM is the hardest one to tune.  The Lacrosse one would work too.     I quoted this because in your original post, you mentioned a 97 GP. If you're simply upgrading your 95 GP to a 97 MC that's fine but you're still going to have a transmission with weaker internals compared to HD and if you really plan on turboing the car, you want to get rid of the car's weakest point, which is the Transmission.     It may be, but remember that if you swap over to 96/97, you're making the LQ1 interference and it will be easier to grenade once you have a Turbo on. Simplest way is adapting the 96/97 harness to your C100 connector (located on the firewall). Most folks that swap W's do it this way rather than rebuilding the car to accept the new wiring harness. You would still have to tune and delete certain aspects of the 96/97 style engine in the PCM as there's certain things 94/95 engines didn't have.     SaaR not Saab.    Lumina and Monte Carlo are the same exact car, but the Lumina is a 4 door and the Monte Carlo is the coupe version of the Lumina. There would literally be no difference in powertrain getting a Lumina over a Monte Carlo HOWEVER the 3.4 DOHC 95-97 Luminas are very rare compared to Z34 Monte Carlos of the same vintage.    It may help you to find a JY in your area that has 2 cars with the LQ1 and go from there, that way you can compare 94/95 to 96/97. For the record, there's 3 versions of the LQ1... First one that was built between 91 and 93, 94 and 95 which are considered OBD1.5 and the final one for OBD2 built in 96 and 97. All of them have distinct features that are different but for the most part 91-95 interchange mechanically whereas 96 and 97 are different.   For harvesting aspects, you really need to find a 94 or 95 Grand Prix, Cutlass Supreme, 95 Monte Carlo Z34 or 94 Lumina Z34 (coupe version of the 1st gen Lumina sedan) at the yard and compare them to a 96-97 Z34 Monte Carlo in the same yard. Difficult feat, but at least you could run back and forth.   If you don't know these resources yet, check out ROW52.COM and LKQPICKYOURPART.COM they will come in handy



#20 TpottsThe1

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:12 AM

Dang it I didn't do that quote thing right




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