Why was Buick only ones to use 3.8 in first generation car?

[movielover40]

Just curious why Buick were the only ones using 3800 v6 in their cars in the first generation w body cars.

 

I know their GS Regals had them in there.

 

 

 

 

[jake91]

3.8 was a buick motor before w-bodys came about so im assuming thats why they kept it as such.

[Nas Escobar]

The Regal actually started life out with a 2.8. It didn't get the 3800 until 1990.

 

The idea of this was that the 3.4 was acutally going to replace the 3800. See GM wanted to get rid of the 3800 for a while but never managed to since it was a robust engine. The idea of replacing the 3800 with the LQ1 was tossed around when they were introduced in 1991. Sadly the LQ1 didn't catch on (despite being very similar in power to the 3800) and the LQ1 died. Then there was the 3.5 "Shortstar". Same concept, didn't catch on and the 3800 lived on. The 3800 was actually supposed to stop production in 1999 but that didn't happen either. Not for another 9 years. Even then, GM didn't have something suitable to replace the 3800

[55trucker]

The 3800cc or 231C.I. v6 was a Buick exclusive engine since 1963, it was originally made use of in the Buick Skylark/Special, (cousin to the Olds F85), the Regal began life in 1973, it was built on the same platform as the Century but was the premium carline. Buick began using the retooled 231 again in 1975 as a fuel affordable alternative to the v8's due to the fuel crisis that we were experiencing back then and it remained a staple engine platform.  

[pitzel]

The "3800" is considerably more powerful/higher torque than the 3.1 LH0 and the 2.8 offered.

 

One can also assume that GM wanted to preserve the market for the H-body cars (various Buicks and Oldsmobiles) which were almost entirely 3800-powered. 

 

For instance, the (4-door) Cutlass Supreme, and the Oldsmobile (Delta) 88 were on the same car lots.  Roughly the same size.  The 3800 and  a slightly better interior, made up most of the differentiating feature set between the two lines. 

[Imp558]

Originally the 231 was a V8, they whacked 2 cylinders off and bored it out. There's a really good wiki

[RobertISaar]

 Sadly the LQ1 didn't catch on (despite being very similar in power to the 3800) and the LQ1 died.

hell, the LQ1 was making more power than the SC3800s when it came out.

 

The 3800 and  a slightly better interior, made up most of the differentiating feature set between the two lines. 

 

eh, better interior is subjective..... more traditional large-car interior, which the 3800 also appealed to.

 

 

 

the 3800 in any variety stuck around for a long time because it was cheaper than dirt to produce..... likely cost less than any 60V6 short of a gen1. and people were willing to pay more for an engine that cost less(they likely didn't know that).... I'm no businessman, but in a situation like this, with what I assume are pretty small margins for the manufacturers themselves, it would be wise to keep upselling that which costs you less.

 

the LQ1 wasn't cheap... in the late 80s and early 90s, it looked like every manufacturer was going the DOHC route, so that is what divisions 1-3 did as well.... division 4 being division 4, went the route of large displacement, cheap, low-maintenance engines because that's exactly what their target customer base wanted. 1-2 saw this and eventually dropped DOHC V6s for the time, while 3 doubled-down with the shortstar...

 

 

 

so essentially, buick wanted to appeal to their traditional consumers while Chevrolet, Pontiac and Oldsmobile gambled towards the future.

[Galaxie500XL]

...for that matter, the LQ1 made better power than several V-8 offerings GM had been selling....

[movielover40]

Thanks for the replies. My father in law had a 3.8 in his LeSabre that lasted forever.

[Imp558]

I'm surprised there isn't still a fireball 6 descendant offered now.

GM sold it to AMC, bought it back, it was changed every which way over the years too. That engine ran the same gauntlet as the chevy small block. Displacement changes,different carbs,different efi systems, turbo, intercooled, blown, drive by wire.Not many engines can boast about having such a full life.

[Schurkey]

I'm surprised there isn't still a fireball 6 descendant offered now.

GM sold it to AMC, bought it back, it was changed every which way over the years too. That engine ran the same gauntlet as the chevy small block. Displacement changes,different carbs,different efi systems, turbo, intercooled, blown, drive by wire.Not many engines can boast about having such a full life.

The downside is that the Buick (and AMC) V-6 was a total turd until it got a critical oiling-system modification.   This happened about the same time as the switch to FI; around '86.  Early engines route the oil to the lifters on one bank through the front cam bearing.  The Buick design places the distributor drive gear ahead of the front cam bearing, and it's un-supported at the front end.  This produces LOTS of stress on that front bearing, so when the bearing melts, the oil supply to one side of the engine fails.

 

Newer engines--around '86 or '87--have an oil passage behind the bearing, machined into the iron of the block, so when the bearing fails the lifters still get oil.  Chevy made this mistake on the small-block, but fixed it within a year or two.  Chevy made that same mistake on the Mk IV big-block, and fixed it after two model years.  Buick had this problem even worse because of the overhung camshaft gear, and didn't fix it for about twenty-three years.  The aluminum housing for the oil pump was another design screw-up common to the Buick V-6 and V-8 engines.

 

Eventually, the oil pump was moved so as to be directly driven by the crank; the engine went distributorless, and the stress that the overhung camshaft placed on that front cam bearing--which shouldn't have been there to begin with--was removed.

[movielover40]

Thanks for the info Schurkey.

 

Great engine.

[Imp558]

I wonder if that was a factor in the 455 having problems with higher revs making them grenade. But I thought it was a balance issue.

More disturbing was the 231/3.8/3800 balance shaft to fix the issue of the missing cylinder on each end, I wish they would have managed to balance the engine internally at some point.

[Schurkey]

I wonder if that was a factor in the 455 having problems with higher revs making them grenade. But I thought it was a balance issue.

More disturbing was the 231/3.8/3800 balance shaft to fix the issue of the missing cylinder on each end, I wish they would have managed to balance the engine internally at some point.

The Buick big-block (400, 430, and 455) have the goofiest connecting-rod balance arrangement I've ever seen.  The balance pads--which should be on the ends of the rods, are at the center instead.  It's therefore very difficult to equalize all the big-end weights, and all the small-end weights.  Adding to this is that the Buick torsional damper is drilled with a series of holes which Buick used for balancing, by shoving steel pins into one or more holes to "final balance" the rotating assembly.  Unless the pins are re-installed in the same hole in a replacement damper, the engine balance is ruined.

 

HOWEVER, the real problem with the Buick big-block is the oiling system; starting with the very long suction passage from oil pickup to the externally-mounted oil pump, the aluminum (instead of iron) housing of the pump, and the front cam bearing/overhung camshaft as described previously.  It's a terrible design that needs heaps of attention.  That said, the rest of the engine is OK when built to modern performance specs using select aftermarket parts.  Buick folks consider a well-built 455 to be the equivalent of a stock street Chrysler Hemi for power--and there's evidence to suggest they're correct.

 

There's not much to be done with 90 degree V-6s to balance them properly without balance-shafts.  The imbalance is inherent in the design.  A 60-degree V-6 doesn't have this problem.  You'll note that the late-70's V-6s that had the new (at that time) split-pin crankshafts were sold as "even-fire", not "even balance" engines.  There's a difference!

[Imp558]

I just don't understand why a 3 cylinder tractors engine can run smoothly yet in all the years they couldn't engineer a balanced rotating assembly for the fireball 6 descendants, realistically a v6 with a firing order that is essentially 123456 doesn't even sound like it has the possibility of being balanced

[55trucker]

^ The firing order of the 231 (90 degree V6) variant wasn't *123456*, it was/is 165432, that's why they sound different than a 60 degree v6.

[Imp558]

Okay, I guess I had it backwards, after 1 fires 1 time it's still as silly 654321. A typical V8 firing order is a bit more spread out 18436572, seems firing a bit more back and forth as such could yield a bit smoother running. 

[pitzel]

I think another factor is the 60degree V6 engines run smoother than the 3800.  Some of GM's 'marketing' was keyed towards a smoother, more refined experience, coming out with such monikers such as  "Euro" and "International Series" on certain 2.8/3.1-powered cars (remember, this was an era when most American cars on the road had much higher displacement engines, and there was considerable customer skepticism around the spectrum of new technologies that came with cars such as the W-Body, such as EFI, modular electronics, etc. -- the implied marketing was that EFI and low displacement engines were in extensive use in Europe for many years prior without reliability problems!) .  Yes, I know, corny at the time (even more so today), especially with that weird "International Series" logo with a pile of flags on it.  But that's what GM was going for in their marketing, and fitting a "new" engine in the 60degreeV6 fit the bill.  The Iron Duke made an appearance as well in the W-body, but reliability problems and that typical 4-cylinder vibration (characteristic of "foreign" cars) didn't go over well with customers.

 

If the 3.1/3100/3400 had been free of the LIM issues, I am personally convinced the 3800 would have disappeared a lot sooner from the GM repertoire. 

[Imp558]

I don't know, the 3800 had, and still has a huge following. It also carried the flag of being a not-chevy engine. The last to carry that designation. I remember my Dad when I was little throwing a fit because he bought an Oldsmobile and he found it had a "Cheap Chevy" engine in it. Dad bought his first Chrysler then, and he still drives Chrysler.

[pitzel]

I don't know, the 3800 had, and still has a huge following. It also carried the flag of being a not-chevy engine. The last to carry that designation. I remember my Dad when I was little throwing a fit because he bought an Oldsmobile and he found it had a "Cheap Chevy" engine in it. Dad bought his first Chrysler then, and he still drives Chrysler.

 

Yeah its amazing looking back, that people actually 'bought engines', not cars back then. 

 

While these days, most could care less what engine it had in it, unless they had a horrifically bad experience in the past.  But in all seriousness, engines are usually the least of the problems with cars these days -- its all the other stuff around them that tends to fail.

[Imp558]

yeah if all goes well dad will have his first w body soon. I found a regal with a bad fuel pump the other day and I might be able to get him out of his 92 Chrysler finally

[l67ss]

I think another factor is the 60degree V6 engines run smoother than the 3800.  Some of GM's 'marketing' was keyed towards a smoother, more refined experience, coming out with such monikers such as  "Euro" and "International Series" on certain 2.8/3.1-powered cars (remember, this was an era when most American cars on the road had much higher displacement engines, and there was considerable customer skepticism around the spectrum of new technologies that came with cars such as the W-Body, such as EFI, modular electronics, etc. -- the implied marketing was that EFI and low displacement engines were in extensive use in Europe for many years prior without reliability problems!) .  Yes, I know, corny at the time (even more so today), especially with that weird "International Series" logo with a pile of flags on it.  But that's what GM was going for in their marketing, and fitting a "new" engine in the 60degreeV6 fit the bill.  The Iron Duke made an appearance as well in the W-body, but reliability problems and that typical 4-cylinder vibration (characteristic of "foreign" cars) didn't go over well with customers.

 

If the 3.1/3100/3400 had been free of the LIM issues, I am personally convinced the 3800 would have disappeared a lot sooner from the GM repertoire.

 

other than the fact that lims were far from the only issue with 60°s .....like a lack of balls for one....

[RobertISaar]

LIM gasket issues are not 60V6 specific..... not even close. I can certainly say I've never seen a 60V6 intake melt or explode... both of which I've seen on countless S2 3800s in the yards.

 

people flock to the factory boosted engines.... TGPs made impressive numbers for the time, even though there are better 60V6 options now, they still get a huge amount of work done on them considering how many were ever made, let alone still on the road. there was a significantly longer run of SC3800s, so a lot of attention exists there.

[l67ss]

I mean everything maintnance or repairwise(aside from ps pump or wp) is more of a pita on a 60°....lims, t stat, exhaust, coils etc. And when i tried driving my 3100 car anywhere near as rough as my 3800 car stuff started failling and making noise. Only vehicle i ever liked a 60° in was mated to a 5-speed in a 2wd swb s-10

[Imp558]

I found some neat stuff on the Buick V6 Wiki today (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine), I saw it before but today I was reminded of this thread.

"The 3800 Series II was on the Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 1995 through 1997"

 

First is a 3300, not sure what displacement the other two are but I wish the 24V DOHC would have made it into production! Now I wonder what 60 Degree concept engines are out there in mothballs: