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60 degree V6s and 90 degree V6s


GM-midsize-guy
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One post on a thread of mine mentioned how sturdy 60 degree V6s can be. I've read that, too.

 

That would mean Chevy produced V6s in W-bodies such as the 3100, 3400, 3500, and 3900, among others.

 

That would really leave only the 3800 as the only 90 degree V6 in W-body cars. I'm thinking the Buick 3300 usually made it into older Centuries/Cieras and Skylarks of the early 90s, which were not W-bodies. (BTW, the little 3300 was a sweet little engine, which ran a little quieter than the 3800, got good gas mileage, and also lasted a long time).

 

In all the Chevy V6 powered cars I've rented, I can honestly say that they sound "different" from a 90 degree Buick V6 and they also have a little more horsepower (211 for 3500 and 242 for 3900, versus 200 for 3800).

 

So, what is it that makes the 60 degree Chevy V6s quieter and more dynamically balanced?

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oh, boy, this type of thread......

 

anyways, the shortstar found in the intrigue is the only other 90V6 that made it into a W-body.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance#V6_engines

 

that will answer the question of balance. sound levels? i don't know, i tend to hear more exhaust noise than engine noises on my vehicles.

 

output is because the 3800s were not designed to be high output engines at all..... in comparison to a gen3 OHV(3100/3400) 60V6, the 3800 S2 use really restrictive head castings in relation to displacement. great for lower RPM operation, but if you take a look at torque curves from stock engines, they're wheezing by 4500/5000. GM's all too famous solution to this was to cram more air through the engine via boost, with the 3.8s having the option of a turbo in the 80s and the 3800s having the option of a supercharger in the 90s.

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It should also be noted that the "shortstar" 3.5 90deg V6 is not based on the Buick 3800 but rather the Cadillac Northstar engine. AS such they're prone to the headgasket failure, but they're not as bad as the N*.

 

The 3300 saw service in A bodies and N bodies until 93. After that, they were 2200's and 60deg V6's.

 

So to answer your question, I really want to say that it's because the 3800 has its roots as a V8 engine, so the fact that GM simply removed 2 cylinders made it to be a rough idling engine ever since. IDK how much that would affect the engine considering that the engine got updated so much that different RPO codes were assigned to it throughout its lifetime but there has to be something about it. I know that the Buick Riviera in particular was designed with the 3800 idle flaw in mind.

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oh, boy, this type of thread......

 

anyways, the shortstar found in the intrigue is the only other 90V6 that made it into a W-body.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance#V6_engines

 

Why the oh boy? Ok, well, there's some good info here, especially on the engine balance wiki article. Thanks.

 

Correct. I completely forgot the 90 degree Shortstar 3.5 V6 in the Intrigue. I didn't mind renting them, but I wouldn't have wanted to own one. While some 3800s that made it into Intrigues were plagued with head gasket problems, the 3.5s in Intrigues have been real big hits and misses with their owners. It was definitely a chopped off version of the all-aluminum (Cadillac?) V8s, just as the 4.3 Chevy V6, cast iron block and heads, (at 262 cu. in.) is exactly 75% of the displacement of their Chevy 350 V8 engine, and thus another lop off. Gosh, I loved those when they came out and had only simple TBI. The engine compartment appeared to be so tidy.

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The 3300 saw service in A bodies and N bodies until 93. After that, they were 2200's and 60deg V6's.

 

IDK how much that would affect the engine considering that the engine got updated so much that different RPO codes were assigned to it throughout its lifetime but there has to be something about it. I know that the Buick Riviera in particular was designed with the 3800 idle flaw in mind.

 

Thank you. I had forgotten Centuries and Cieras were A-bodies. I had a Century with a 3300 in Denver and the nearby Rockies for an extended weekend. I loved it. The exhaust note from the 3300 was so quiet and it was strong yet economical. I just thought the styling on the Centuries was too geriatric. Of the A-body stable, the only one I liked was the Pontiac 6000.

 

I have NEVER seen a 2200 under their hood IRL, and I suspect few were ordered. That would have been a fascinating sight. I have seen that listed in old brochures. I wonder how those held up compared to the old school 2.5 L4. In Consumer Reports, it appears that old Centuries are reviewed with V6s for the most part.

 

Interesting to know about the Buick Riviera. So, it sounds like some kind of accommodation to baffle sound or vibration was employed. Do you know which vintage Riviera this was? I find the 91, 92 Rivieras and Toronados to be very attractive vehicles. I have never ridden in one, but I'm sure they did everything to keep them hushed. As for 3800 V6s, my 2008, sitting at a light, seems like the engine is off. There is no vibration or exhaust sound whatsoever. I just wish it was easier on oil. It's not really THAT bad, but it should be tighter than how it was built. It has been babied, too.

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Thank you. I had forgotten Centuries and Cieras were A-bodies. I had a Century with a 3300 in Denver and the nearby Rockies for an extended weekend. I loved it. The exhaust note from the 3300 was so quiet and it was strong yet economical. I just thought the styling on the Centuries was too geriatric. Of the A-body stable, the only one I liked was the Pontiac 6000.

 

I have NEVER seen a 2200 under their hood IRL, and I suspect few were ordered. That would have been a fascinating sight. I have seen that listed in old brochures. I wonder how those held up compared to the old school 2.5 L4. In Consumer Reports, it appears that old Centuries are reviewed with V6s for the most part.

 

Interesting to know about the Buick Riviera. So, it sounds like some kind of accommodation to baffle sound or vibration was employed. Do you know which vintage Riviera this was? I find the 91, 92 Rivieras and Toronados to be very attractive vehicles. I have never ridden in one, but I'm sure they did everything to keep them hushed. As for 3800 V6s, my 2008, sitting at a light, seems like the engine is off. There is no vibration or exhaust sound whatsoever. I just wish it was easier on oil. It's not really THAT bad, but it should be tighter than how it was built. It has been babied, too.

 

The thing about the A bodies were that they were never redesigned. They should have been considering that the Ciera and Century were big sellers.

 

As far as the 2200, I think that might have been like the Quad 4 in the Cutlass Supreme. It was offered but a rare option. I'm not sure if they stopped offering the 2200 after a certain year as well, but it was available at one point from what I'm told. The 2.5 is the Iron Duke right? Because the 2200 is a lot better than the Iron Duke. The 2200 is pretty hard to kill. I used to tool around in a 2200 Cavalier and the car around it needed more repairs than the 2200 itself. They're pretty good engines, the only thing about them that's bad is their noise level. Those engines are pretty loud and get louder when the chain starts to become loose.

 

The Riviera in question is the 1995-1999. The thing with the 3800 is not that it's loud, but rather that it vibrates rather strong. Idk if this is a motor mount thing, but the 3800 is inherently like this. I know it feels like that sometimes in my Camaro.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I'm not sure on the difference from a technical standpoint. But the difference in exhaust sounds, I'll stick with my 3800 and dual exhaust.

 

...I sincerely hope you're joking. In the more than 10 years I've been in the w-body community, I have never, ever heard a good sounding 3800 exhaust set up (and I've heard a TON). Many people have CLAIMED theirs sounds good, but upon hearing them, the conclusion has been the same every time; either this person has really poor taste/doesn't realize how bad it sounds, or s/he is in denial. I've heard a few that sounded OK at idle, or under 2000 RPMs (especially with a cam), but that's about the best they can muster up. Anything above that, and the 3800 just has a monotone drone that sounds very ricer 4-bangerish. On the other hand, it's pretty hard (by comparison to a 3800 at least) for a 60° NOT to sound good for a V6 with almost any combination of exhaust components you can throw at it. Not only is the tone throatier by nature at idle, but it maintains it for higher RPMs with a bit of a gargle to it instead of the 4-bangerish drone. It's not even a comparison.

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Agreed with D. I have a Borla deal on my car, and idle sounds good....light acceleration sounds good...anything above that is just pure BRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP garbage. Especially with no resonator

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Yikes. So from what I'm reading 3800's sound like shit with open exhaust. That kinda makes me sad. :(

 

I would suggest using a cone filter and straight intake tubing so the engine can sound more aggressive. I took off the "accordion" stuff on my Camaro and left the filter box off and its 3800 sounded more menacing. I personally liked the sound. Of course, I also have an exhaust leak and stock mufflers.

 

I have learned that everything starts out from the intake, if you can make it sound good from the intake, you will sound good all throughout, you just have to get headers, high flow cats, and a good muffler/resonator combo. Someone on here has stated glasspacks can help tone out the higher tones, but I've never tried it, nor have I seen a good video of a muffler/glasspack combo. Everyone that does glasspacks seems to delete the muffler.

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I would suggest using a cone filter and straight intake tubing so the engine can sound more aggressive. I took off the "accordion" stuff on my Camaro and left the filter box off and its 3800 sounded more menacing. I personally liked the sound. Of course, I also have an exhaust leak and stock mufflers.

 

I have learned that everything starts out from the intake, if you can make it sound good from the intake, you will sound good all throughout, you just have to get headers, high flow cats, and a good muffler/resonator combo. Someone on here has stated glasspacks can help tone out the higher tones, but I've never tried it, nor have I seen a good video of a muffler/glasspack combo. Everyone that does glasspacks seems to delete the muffler.

 

Modifying the intake sounds like the ideal place to start. Might as well bring enough air into the engine and have an exhaust capable of coping with the flow.

 

Modifying car engines is a science. I think I like it.

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I have a cone filter on a custom intake on my car, as well as a Magnaflow muffler. Resonator was replaced before I got the car so I'm not sure what's on it. Like everyone else said, it sounds good at idle and lower RPMS, but once you get to a certain point, it just kinda drones. To be honest, I don't find it that bad, but it's all personal taste.

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