Upgrade Time! Help?

[Rick]

Well, unfortunately my Bazooka "sub" blew out it appears, was probably around 7 to 10 years old so it had a good time. Well, all the original speakers are still in the car and I think its time for a upgrade, especially with Christmas right around the corner. To MY knowledge, the front door panels on the cutlass have the normal 5.25" component speakers with a small crossover to a tweeter. The rear door panel speakers are just 6.5" also to my knowledge, I believe they are just full range speakers and not components since the tweeter is built into the woofer region.

I also figure now's a good time since I fixed my car window and door panel, so might as well throw some new speakers in before putting everything back together!

I want to do this right and I honestly am not the best when it comes to speakers. Wiring them is one thing, everything I need is another. I have heard if I get nice high power speakers I will want to run them to an amp, is that true? Keep in mind my car is a 1995 Cutlass Convertible, so loud speakers are a must when summer top down comes around. I also want the possibility to run a sub(s?) in the trunk of my car.

I have a DEH-3300UB Pioneer Headunit, roughly 6 months old. I want far superior speakers to what is currently in my car, and if its possible speakers with higher bass output. Maybe around the level you would find in a new model car, not crazy levels from the speakers but definitely a decent amount(Ex:Friends 2010 Lancer or 2005/6 Acura RSX). As currently, the front 5.25s have no bass output, and the rear is minimal at best.

Money Cap is at around $200. Excluding subs, those would be at a later time. Anyone want to help me start it off or bounce me some ideas? Thanks!

EDIT:::Realized the speakers are aftermarket, but probably exceptionally old. They are Cerwin Vega and the fronts are SS-2502 which popped no hits on google, not sure if that helps anyone with anything. Just found they came out in 2000, so are probably around 8 to 10 years old. Also...on the window sticker the package that came with the car was "6 spkr dimensional sound sys", which was higher than basic, just an extra fyi. Just read that the front doors can also hold 6.5", that an adapter is used to fit 5.25" in the doors. Anyone able to verify if this is true?

[alec_b]

I'm sure xtreme will pop in here soon, but I'll throw in my .02

It really depends on what you want out of the system. I've heard the boomy OEM systems, you most likely won't get that kind of result, nor would you want to. Those systems sound like that through artificial EQ and crappy speakers. Plus, most OEM stereo's now have the amp mounted externally, and can provide more power to said crappy speakers than your Pioneer HU can, but not by much.

Since you're getting a sub in the (near) future, I wouldn't worry about your speakers putting out much bass, most likely nothing below 80hz, 100hz is probably more realistic. If you do NOT want to run a 4-ch amp, you're going to want to look for aftermarket speakers with a high sensitivity and a wide frequency response. 90db+ would be good for sensitivity.

Now wait for xtreme to jump in, he'll give a much better explanation of what I'm getting at.

[xtremerevolution]

Well, unfortunately my Bazooka "sub" blew out it appears, was probably around 7 to 10 years old so it had a good time. Well, all the original speakers are still in the car and I think its time for a upgrade, especially with Christmas right around the corner. To MY knowledge, the front door panels on the cutlass have the normal 5.25" component speakers with a small crossover to a tweeter. The rear door panel speakers are just 6.5" also to my knowledge, I believe they are just full range speakers and not components since the tweeter is built into the woofer region.

I also figure now's a good time since I fixed my car window and door panel, so might as well throw some new speakers in before putting everything back together!

I want to do this right and I honestly am not the best when it comes to speakers. Wiring them is one thing, everything I need is another. I have heard if I get nice high power speakers I will want to run them to an amp, is that true? Keep in mind my car is a 1995 Cutlass Convertible, so loud speakers are a must when summer top down comes around. I also want the possibility to run a sub(s?) in the trunk of my car.

I have a DEH-3300UB Pioneer Headunit, roughly 6 months old. I want far superior speakers to what is currently in my car, and if its possible speakers with higher bass output. Maybe around the level you would find in a new model car, not crazy levels from the speakers but definitely a decent amount(Ex:Friends 2010 Lancer or 2005/6 Acura RSX). As currently, the front 5.25s have no bass output, and the rear is minimal at best.

Money Cap is at around $200. Excluding subs, those would be at a later time. Anyone want to help me start it off or bounce me some ideas? Thanks!

EDIT:::Realized the speakers are aftermarket, but probably exceptionally old. They are Cerwin Vega and the fronts are SS-2502 which popped no hits on google, not sure if that helps anyone with anything. Just found they came out in 2000, so are probably around 8 to 10 years old. Also...on the window sticker the package that came with the car was "6 spkr dimensional sound sys", which was higher than basic, just an extra fyi. Just read that the front doors can also hold 6.5", that an adapter is used to fit 5.25" in the doors. Anyone able to verify if this is true?

Before we start, I want you to understand a theory about audio in general. What sounds good to you will only be as good as what you've trained your ears to hear. You can to go Best Buy, spend $1000-$1500 and get a sound system that you think sounds amazing. You will then (not bragging here, just stating facts) step into my car, which has about the same amount put in, and you will be blown away. You will then go back to Best Buy and ask for a refund, or always be haunted by the fact that it doesn't sound as good. BUT...until you hear something better, YOU will be very happy with what you have.

Now, I mention that because when you get advice for car audio, it will be based on the experience someone had and how trained their ears are to hear sound quality. What makes you happy might be a set of Polk Audio DB5251 components, which is what I ran for the last 5 years. You can get them for $100, which is a great deal for speakers like those. But once I heard what midbass was supposed to sound like, they just didn't compare. Alternately, what might make someone else happy would be nothing short of a set of HAT, Rainbow, or Focal components, most of which are out of your budget.

So, knowing that, my first bit of advice is that $200 won't get you very far, period. To do what you want, if you want loud, you'll need new front and rear speakers. The fronts will have to be components, the rears can be generics (seriously, rear fill is just that, fill), and you'll need an amp. $200? I don't think so, even if you get it all used. You're going to need to look in the range of $300 for just speakers, $400-$500 if you want to "do it right."

Let me define "do it right." "Do it right" means that you understand that the install is just as important, if not more important, than the components you're using. More on that later.

To get bass you need one of two things; excursion or cone area. Basically, you need to move air. A 5.25" driver won't move a lot of air. A 6.5" driver will move more air. You also need higher power handling, so you can create that output with some fidelity and not make your head hurt. You don't have to go all out with sound quality, but believe me when I say it will sound like crap if you get really cheap components.

Back to the install. In order to hear bass, you need to separate the front waves of the speaker from the back waves. Ever tried to play a speaker in open air? No bass. Once you put it back in a cabinet or mount it back into the door, some of that bass comes back. Your ability to separate those waves is crucial to having some midbass output in your car. A company called Sound Deadener Showdown makes products that allow you to treat your door to accomplish that separation, although there are many ways to do it. Some people choose to use cheaper sound deadening equipment, but the general idea is that you need to cover up some of the holes. Have you taken off your door panel yet? If not, try it out. It will probably look like swiss cheese. Bunch of holes everywhere for the backwaves of the speaker to escape. Here's what mine looked like halfway through my sound deadening install:



If you want midbass, I guarantee that no matter how much you spend on your speakers, it will be pointless until you seal the backwaves from the front waves. You can go cheap with something like Elemental Designs eDead (basically flashing tape), or you can use SDS materials.



Now that we have that out of the way, here's what you'll need. You'll need an amp; no way to get around it. If you want to get loud and sound great, your head unit won't cut it. I know this because I have a similar head unit. The exact model number escapes me, but its also a Pioneer, one generation older. It might say its 50W x 4, but that's a complete lie as its only a peak rating at 10% distortion at the verge of clipping. To make a long story short, all but the beefiest head units will output 7-8W per channel RMS. Not going to be enough man.

To run the amp, you'll need:
A. the amp itself
B. RCA signal wire from the head unit (17-18ft usually)
C. power wires from the engine bay (4 gauge would be fine for a stereo amp, but it MUST be copper, not CCA (copper clad aluminum)). Regarding power wires, you can often get them in a kit, but finding true 4 gauge wire and copper isn't always easy. Either way, these kits come with an inline fuse, which you'd also need.


So here are my recommendations.

Run the rear 6x9s (or 6.5" speakers) off of the head unit's power. Don't put too much emphasis on these, they can be cheap (but don't go Sony or Jensen, something by JBL or Pioneer would be decent). Spend about $50 here.

Get yourself a good 2 channel amp. You'd spend about $100 for a new one, or you could do something like what I have lying around. Go oldschool. Stupid reliable, built like tanks, and often cheap. I actually have one of these on a shelf in my garage. Still works great, built in 1991, and puts out a lot of power. These are almost always heavily underrated, but you'd have to buy one with either buyer protection (ebay), or from someone you trust (such as from a member on diyma.com, where you pay with paypal and still get buyer protection).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coustic-Powe...#ht_500wt_1202

An option if you wanted a new amp would be something like this:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...PI-S420.2.html - only 1 left in stock
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...2-J2360.2.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-KAC-7205.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...Audio-NX2.html

Get 22 feet of 4 gauge copper and an inline fuse from www.knukonceptz.com. Figure about $35 for just the wire.

Determine if you can actually run a 6.5" speaker in the front door. As you saw in the picture above, that's a 6.5" speaker in the door of my 95 Regal. I had to make that baffle because the speaker motor is gigantic and because there's no way in hell that even a "low profile" 6.5" speaker would have fit in my door. If your door is anything like mine, you can kiss your 6.5" dreams goodbye. I've put way too much time into these doors.

Here are some options:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...udio-D151.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...ce-5030cs.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...nt-System.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...o-CK-5III.html

I've used the Polk DB5251s and they are awesome, but they lack in midbass output on a door that's not well treated. The Infinity Reference speakers are pretty good. The Massive Audio kit will probably be the loudest. Those are just a few suggestions, but I wouldn't go too far below a $100 price point on components.

Then, you'll need some speaker wire (doesn't matter where you get it from, 18 gauge and thicker would work), and at least some sound deadening material such as this:

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=786

You could probably treat both doors with 25-30 square feet of it.

Alternately, you can use SDS materials, but you'd be dropping well over $100 to treat both doors at that point.

Holy shit, I just realized how much I wrote...

[Rick]

Might of been a lot you wrote, but all was very helpful. Let me start from the top I suppose lol. I expect to spend more than 200, that was just a price point, however much I get from listing my last computer build on ebay will go to my car. Also...for your door, is that duct-tape...or the edead stuff? Okay so for the doors, it will have to be 5.25", noway around it without a lot of modding ive read, and tried for a little. Rears would be 6.5".

So this is what I have...
(2) 5.25" Components:$100
(2) 6.5" Full-Range:$50
Amp:$50used-$100new
Copper Power Wire:I have about 20ft thats running to my trunk that powered my old Bazooka sub, could that be reused? I would just need another inline fuse, I blew the last one.
Have RCA wires already.


I will check all the links you posted tomorrow, have to finish up AP Physics homework for a test tomorrow and its already midnight. Thanks for the lengthy reply, it helped a lot! I know your the one to ask about sub boxes too haha

[xtremerevolution]

Might of been a lot you wrote, but all was very helpful. Let me start from the top I suppose lol. I expect to spend more than 200, that was just a price point, however much I get from listing my last computer build on ebay will go to my car. Also...for your door, is that duct-tape...or the edead stuff? Okay so for the doors, it will have to be 5.25", noway around it without a lot of modding ive read, and tried for a little. Rears would be 6.5".

So this is what I have...
(2) 5.25" Components:$100
(2) 6.5" Full-Range:$50
Amp:$50used-$100new
Copper Power Wire:I have about 20ft thats running to my trunk that powered my old Bazooka sub, could that be reused? I would just need another inline fuse, I blew the last one.
Have RCA wires already.


I will check all the links you posted tomorrow, have to finish up AP Physics homework for a test tomorrow and its already midnight. Thanks for the lengthy reply, it helped a lot! I know your the one to ask about sub boxes too haha

The stuff I have on my door is two layers of eDead 40, not duct tape. The link I posted was for eDead 80, which I believe would serve you better.

And yeah, no way are you going to get 6.5" components unless you do what I'm doing. All of my work so far is custom, and that driver barely clears the window rail by 1/4". Also, there was no way it was going to fit behind the factory grill. Lots and lots and lots of cutting, routing, and sanding went into making these. I just finished painting them black over the weekend. A couple of clear coats, and they'll be ready to install.




As for the rest, looking good so far. I'd say you can definitely use the wiring you have right now for the two front channels. Any idea how thick it is? If its 4 gauge, you might even be able to get away with using a low powered sub; 250W or less. Worst case, you'll need to run another power wire when you put a sub in there.

[white4d96]

For sound deadener, Audio Technix or bust. I run their 60 mil and it is amazing stuff. Sticks like hell even before you put the heat gun to it.

For speakers, if you are on a budget, you should check out the Vibe Blackair series (with the yellow cone.) I just installed their 6x9's in my car about two weeks ago and I can't believe them. For $50-60 I paid, they are worth every penny. I'm mulling trying the comps as well, as they are on Sonicelectronix for $99.99 IIRC. if you are just a casual listener that should be more than sufficient. If you're like me or Andrei, you're going to be upgrading almost on a weekly basis regardless of where you start


EDITED because I had prices wrong.

[xtremerevolution]

For sound deadener, Audio Technix or bust. I run their 60 mil and it is amazing stuff. Sticks like hell even before you put the heat gun to it.

If you're like me or Andrei, you're going to be upgrading almost on a weekly basis regardless of where you start


EDITED because I had prices wrong.

Never actually used the Audio Technix stuff. I think a lot of it is pretty similar with the exception of the SDS stuff. The guy sent me a "kit" weighing 30 pounds with a sampling of his equipment, enough to outfit one door. 13 CLD tiles, a roll of closed cell vinyl barrier, and some rope caulk. I still have to do some tests to see if its worth it, but so far, there's no comparison between what he sells and anything else I've ever used.

As for upgrading, ain't that the truth. You upgrade, you hear something better, you upgrade again, and you go through phases. The most common phase is the SPL phase, where you want it loud; comps, subs, etc. Then you get in the SQ phase, where you learn how important the install is, how to keep all of your car's panels from resonating and sounding like crap. Then, after going through many subs and components, you settle down on a good amp, a good SQL sub, and you start to learn that after a certain point, its pointless to spend more money, because all that SQ goes right out the window the moment you introduce road noise.

Its a learning experience, but I've discovered that you can skip many of those steps and save a lot of money by following the advice of others who have done the same thing. Its great that you came here for advice instead of picking random parts.

[alec_b]

Man I can't wait to have a car worth putting this much time into. I refuse to put a great stereo in a car I'm not keeping.

Once again xtreme, you have explained it to a tee. I should have just shut up and let him wait for your response.

[jake91]

im just waiting for 2 things a car worth spenting alot of money on and andrei to settle on a sq system so i can copy lmao

[Rick]

Well, im off to college in a year and plan on being there a minimal of 4 years, so figure I might as well put a little time and effort in making it worthwhile. A second question, I have those 6.5" in the rear, I know you said they are just "fill" speakers so are they worth replacing since they are aftermarket, but still old and not high quality or would that $50 or so be better spent on higher quality components in the front door panels? Another issue is that I noticed water is dripping in the door, which explains the small amount of rust on the bottom of the door. Is this a worry for affecting the speakers? Or for the sound-deadening material adhesive? Thanks again for all the input! Cant wait to have it all planned out and then only be waiting on the cash to purchase them.

[xtremerevolution]

Man I can't wait to have a car worth putting this much time into. I refuse to put a great stereo in a car I'm not keeping.

Once again xtreme, you have explained it to a tee. I should have just shut up and let him wait for your response.

Haha, don't worry man. I'm not the only one who knows anything. The more people that help, the better.

im just waiting for 2 things a car worth spenting alot of money on and andrei to settle on a sq system so i can copy lmao

There won't be much of a point of copying me. My install will be so customized that it will be pointless to try to copy it. You can copy certain elements, but in the end, you will have to tune to your ears in your specific car. For example, the tweeters I'm using run very hot (bright, loud), compared to the drivers, so they *must* be run off-axis mounted close to the drivers in the doors. I've cut out an additional hole in that MDF baffle for the tweeters. During initial tests, they sounded great there, but that also lowered my sound stage. The way I'm fixing that is by installing two 3" full range TangBand drivers higher up toward the top of the doors with a capacitor for a high pass filter. The drivers I'm using are very similar to these:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-812

These will help raise the sound stage and make it sound more natural. I'll be running them off a very old (1991) Coustic Power Logic amp, 30Wx2, as they will only be there for sound stage. I will not be running rear speakers as these will create a full enough sound inside the entire car that where you won't even notice they're gone.

Will this work for everyone else? Not unless they want to start making custom speaker pods. When you're ready to start spending money on car audio, make a thread and we'll make recommendations for you based on your budget.

Well, im off to college in a year and plan on being there a minimal of 4 years, so figure I might as well put a little time and effort in making it worthwhile. A second question, I have those 6.5" in the rear, I know you said they are just "fill" speakers so are they worth replacing since they are aftermarket, but still old and not high quality or would that $50 or so be better spent on higher quality components in the front door panels? Another issue is that I noticed water is dripping in the door, which explains the small amount of rust on the bottom of the door. Is this a worry for affecting the speakers? Or for the sound-deadening material adhesive? Thanks again for all the input! Cant wait to have it all planned out and then only be waiting on the cash to purchase them.

There are two groups of people when it comes to car audio, and I'll attempt to explain the two as best as I can.

The first are the kind who like an "in the club" sound. Without much experience or a well trained ear, this will sound best to them, which is perfectly fine. This kind of sound has the rear speakers playing at the same volume as the front speakers playing. This is beneficial for people who often carry rear passengers.

The second are the kind who focus on sound stage. I've been trying to focus my energy on that with my car, although my wife's car is set up more as an "in the club" type. Once you play around with the sound a bit and get a good set of front components, you'll notice that if the rear speakers are kept at the same volume, the sound will always sound like its coming from behind you. Ideally, you should be able to imagine the performance of the music being played in front of you. For this reason, many people will either fade their speakers toward the front heavily and use the rear speakers only for fill or for when they carry passengers, or they'll do what I've done and remove their rear speakers entirely. I got to the point where if I had any sound playing in the rear speakers, it shifted my sound stage to right behind my head. It just didn't sound good to me. A well executed front sound stage will not require rear speakers. However, I also don't have back seats in my car. so I don't have to worry about passengers. If I did have passengers, they would be quite annoyed as there are no speakers back there, the front sound stage is farther away, and the sub is right against their backs.

The reason why you don't need to care too much about the rear speakers is that its impossible to make them sound good. The window reflections as a result of the rear speakers firing upward (in a typical car) will cause all sorts of problems. If you have a convertible, you will need to decide how much effort to put into the rear speakers based on how often you'll be entertaining passengers. As a start, if you're on a budget, I'd much rather see you spend decent money on your front sound stage and upgrade the rear in the future, than split up your funds between the front and the rear and sacrifice some of your front sound stage performance. Quite frankly, that $50 would certainly be better spent on better front components.

As for the water dripping, that's because when it rains and your window gets wet, the water needs to go somewhere. This will drip from inside and escape through a few holes at the bottom of your door. This will not affect your ability to use sound dampening material, as it will stick to the sheet metal and stay there permanently. This stuff is a peel-n-stick material which has a wax paper type backing that you peel off. Once you apply it to a sheet metal surface, it will stay there. You can generally remove it and play around with it for a week or so, but wait a while and that stuff will not come off intact.

The water is not a worry for the speakers as the speaker adapters in your doors should have a shield built into them.

If you use a high quality used amplifier, get some good deals on equipment, and take your time to do a proper install, you can have a very nice sounding system for a very low price.



I recently completed an install for a buddy of mine. Including the head unit, he spent around $750 for his entire install. All of his parts were bought used with the exception of wiring and the head unit, and he got very high end SQ equipment. Here are some pictures of the install I did in his car:

[white4d96]

Mmm, Arc...

[xtremerevolution]

Mmm, Arc...

I think we put that in .9 cubic feet with a double thick recessed baffle (you can see the chamfer on the edges since the second baffle stuck out too far), and a 3.5" thick sheet of fiberglass against the back of the box. Absolutely incredible. I was blown away by how much bass that thing delivered on 250W RMS. I was even more blown away by the PPI components we put in, and the fact that he got them for $125 shipped. Mounted the tweeters at the top of the doors near the pillars slightly off axis, and damn, what an amazing sound stage. It still boggles my mind how much he got for $750, which includes all wiring, sub carpet, and install materials. Retail value of his components easily exceeded $1500.

[Rick]

Nice to know that about the dripping, I noticed the 95 had the shields, unlike my prior 94 Vert'. Should be listing my computer parts tonight, hopefully they sell quick as ill probably list them as buy it now. Its been constantly raining here the last few days so I unfortunately haven't been able to "fix" my window, which likes to fall off track so were creating a separate stopper to now disallow the window to fall all the way out of the track. When there is a let up in the rain I will also find out what gauge the power wire is for you so you can let me know if it is adequate or not.

I was searching around on crutchfield, which i've always heard great things about but figured I would give amazon a check and see how prices compare. I read the reviews of the Polk DB5251 and they seem great, and sound great the way you describe them too so its a top qualifier in my mind right now, especially for the price.

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-DB5.../ref=de_a_smtd
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB52...io-db5251.html

Do you think this amp could power those speakers?
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC5...04.html?tp=115

I have plenty of copper line running from the battery post, not sure what guage it is, but its thick and red lined/clear plastic wrapped. I would assume I could splice it and wire it to a 10guage wire if possible with a inline fuse to the amp. If it works too, that would be right around $150, which would leave me to decide if I want to upgrade my rear 6.5s or not, or go with the edead80.

[xtremerevolution]

Nice to know that about the dripping, I noticed the 95 had the shields, unlike my prior 94 Vert'. Should be listing my computer parts tonight, hopefully they sell quick as ill probably list them as buy it now. Its been constantly raining here the last few days so I unfortunately haven't been able to "fix" my window, which likes to fall off track so were creating a separate stopper to now disallow the window to fall all the way out of the track. When there is a let up in the rain I will also find out what gauge the power wire is for you so you can let me know if it is adequate or not.

I was searching around on crutchfield, which i've always heard great things about but figured I would give amazon a check and see how prices compare. I read the reviews of the Polk DB5251 and they seem great, and sound great the way you describe them too so its a top qualifier in my mind right now, especially for the price.

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-DB5.../ref=de_a_smtd
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB52...io-db5251.html

Do you think this amp could power those speakers?
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC5...04.html?tp=115

I have plenty of copper line running from the battery post, not sure what guage it is, but its thick and red lined/clear plastic wrapped. I would assume I could splice it and wire it to a 10guage wire if possible with a inline fuse to the amp. If it works too, that would be right around $150, which would leave me to decide if I want to upgrade my rear 6.5s or not, or go with the edead80.

That amp won't give you enough power, imo. I would step it up a notch to a 7204 model, but that series Kenwood amp is very good. I've been using a pair of KAC-7203D amps for as long as I've had the Polk speakers.

I do have to warn you, those Polks don't have a whole lot of bass without good door sealing (really, nothing in a 5.25" form will), so you will definitely need to seal up your doors if you want decent sound without a sub. I would go with the edead80 over replacing the rear speakers hands down.

Crutchfield is a good place to shop. I have also had good luck at sonicelectronix and onlinecarstereo. Shop around for price comparisons if you want to. Otherwise, you really can't go wrong with that place.

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