Reviving the TSTE

[GutlessSupreme]

I'm probably going to keep the details short, and the pictures aplenty.

As much as I hate to do it, I'm going to hackjob fix the TSTE. Right now, the camshaft in it is trash. I'm going to remove it, clean the hell out of the inside of the motor, reuse my lifters and pushrods, and, yep, you guessed it: use the 139k camshaft out of the TGP.

Yes, this is a terrible idea.

Only things I'm going to replace on the TSTE are the timing chain and sprockets, and any gaskets/o-rings I can while I'm in there.

This only has to last me until like next summer. Hopefully it'll be getting a top end swap at that point, along with the Getrag swap. Of course, it'll get a new cam, pushrods and lifters at that point. I might go as far as to replace the rings too, which wouldn't be a bad idea on this 155k motor.

Pics, day 1:

http://members.cox.net/odyssey37/images/tgp/IMG_9134%20(Medium).jpg

it's cold in the garage :(

http://members.cox.net/odyssey37/images/tgp/IMG_9138%20(Medium).jpg

I didn't have one of those balanced pulley removers readily available, so I grabbed the next best thing. A 10 pound sledge.

http://members.cox.net/odyssey37/images/tgp/IMG_9143%20(Medium).jpg

http://members.cox.net/odyssey37/images/tgp/IMG_9144%20(Medium).jpg

[Prospeeder]

Awsome, really glad your repairing it, That Turbo STE is a nice car

[GP1138]

:shock: Just be careful dude. :lol:

[Pabz]

How much are those engine hoists and where can i get one?

MMMM heaters.

[Intlcutlass]

I'm probably going to keep the details short, and the pictures aplenty.

As much as I hate to do it, I'm going to hackjob fix the TSTE. Right now, the camshaft in it is trash. I'm going to remove it, clean the hell out of the inside of the motor, reuse my lifters and pushrods, and, yep, you guessed it: use the 139k camshaft out of the TGP.

Yes, this is a terrible idea.

If I were you I would keep my eyes open on ebay.... I got a cam (new) for $20.00
I just can't see inviting another potential disaster, because if it does fail, you will be kicking yourself in the ass...

[GutlessSupreme]

Do I REALLY REALLY want this?

edit: it seems that I do.. and for that price.. :shock:

[GutlessSupreme]

How much are those engine hoists and where can i get one?

MMMM heaters.

Haven't a clue, borrowed it from a Volvo guy up the street.. things fuckin hardcore though, I'll tell ya that.

[Pabz]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/93-GM-3-1-V6-CAM-LIFTERS-WITH-TIMING-SET-NEW_W0QQitemZ8016914466QQcategoryZ33614QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Do I REALLY REALLY want this?

Hell Ya man, nothing like driving with new lifters and cam shaft.

[1990lumina]

How much are those engine hoists and where can i get one?

MMMM heaters.

Does Edmonton have a Rpincess Auto - must have.....anyway I know they have one model...Costco sometimes as them i've seen....however I don't think the ones I mentioned a are a good as the one in the picture

[herb427sc]

The hoist looks just like the one I got from
Harbor Freight about 10 years ago.

The only problem was the shaft on the Hoist
Cylinder was not chrome plated.

You can buy them now for under $200.

[supreme_style21]

thats the same lift I have in the garage too.

[White93z34]

wow for a brand new cam lifters, etc. $35... you'd be retarted NOT to do it.

[GutlessSupreme]

Damn Little T :shock:

you got bad luck with engines....

fix it up good!!

I should clarify! :lol:

the motor in the pics is the TGP motor.. I was stealing the cam via brute force attack :lol:

But now that I see that auction, chances are the only thing I'll be saving from the TGP is the transmission (which does appear to be rebuilt, now that I've dropped the pan and seperated it from the motor).

[gp90se]

the tranny outta my tgp only had 5k on it, after 4-5 rebuilds that didnt last (so the story goes).

I have a chery picker in my yard, bought it for $180 from a place called C.A.P

when ya pull it all apart, pull the drain plug, toss kerocine all thru the top end of the motor, might even want to put the plug back in, put 5 quarts into the crank, turn in over by hand a few times and drain it again. magnet on the drain plug to get all the metal outta the motor.

Good luck

[GutlessSupreme]

thanks man 8)


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8016315665&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Is there any reason those wouldn't fit a '90? I know the lower intake might be a little different on pre-'91s but I thought the gaskets would all be the same. They look the same, anyway.

[Pabz]

Yep, yours is a 189,

you can check felpros application guide on there website,

I say go for it.

[GutlessSupreme]

No I know, I was just wondering why it said '91+

I'll check the website later.. gonna be late for work!

[Pabz]

usually the felpro sticker says that man. look up the part number.

[TurboSedan]

i prefer the paper Felpro plenum gaskets. Jeff M mentioned one time that one of his friends tried using those metal/o-ring plenum gaskets on a TGP, but couldn't get it torqued properly with an in/lb wrench and broke the plenum :shock: those ones listed above probably would work; the difference is the '91 bolts are 'bigger'. well, '91+ plenum bolts themselves are smaller, but they have a rubber sleeve which makes the bolt holes in the plenum (and gaskets) bigger.

[GutlessSupreme]

Paper gasket? Never seen them...

I broke the original LIM on the TGP.. was using Napa's gaskets (whatever they carry, don't know if it's actually Napa brand). Not the fault of the gaskets though, I just overtightened.

And I'm not so much worried about the upper intake gaskets.. I still have a set of spares I think. It's the LIM gasket I want (that's cheap for the full intake kit, and I'm tired of using Napa's two piece LIM gasket that has no chance of being reused if I need to remove the LIM again). I even have a good TB gasket, and I'm just gonna swap the oil pump drive from the TGP motor because the silicoln o-ring is a bitch to get on.

[Crazy K]

I goofed once and tried to install paper gaskets on a 91+. The hold-down bolts don't lock down against the plenum and left a large gap where the plenum abviously wouldn't have been sealed.

The metal type is for the 91+ The bolts have a metal sleeve with a rubber jacket, the bolts become tight against the metal sleeve, and "suspend" or "float" the plenum in position between the "rubber washer top part of the rubber jacket" and the o raings in the gasket.

The paper type is for 90-, the plenium has small hold down holes,
the bolts hold the plenum down directly.

if you want to use 91 style style then you need to get the correct bolts, and use a newer plenum or ream out all your bolt holes! I like the newer style more and it shouldn't be hard to retrofit if you really wanted to. after all softer aluminum reams easily!
Ken

[Crazy K]

GutlessSupreme, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Put the new o ring on! (unless you don't mind being sorry later) wrap the shaft with a plastic bag to get it to position without damaging it and lube it as you do so, then cut the bag away.
I have always double sealed my drive gears (9 so far) using a cardboard gasket in addition to a new O-ring.
the gasket off of a 1975 chevy belair v6 should fit perfectly!

[GutlessSupreme]

GutlessSupreme, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Put the new o ring on! (unless you don't mind being sorry later) wrap the shaft with a plastic bag to get it to position without damaging it and lube it as you do so, then cut the bag away.
I have always double sealed my drive gears (9 so far) using a cardboard gasket in addition to a new O-ring.
the gasket off of a 1975 chevy belair v6 should fit perfectly!

It is fucking new. It was only in the motor for a week before I blew it the fuck up. I'm not fucking stupid.



Sorry, really pissy mood and having the first few drinks of my life tonight. Not a great combination.

[TurboSedan]

if you want to use 91 style style then you need to get the correct bolts, and use a newer plenum or ream out all your bolt holes! I like the newer style more and it shouldn't be hard to retrofit if you really wanted to. after all softer aluminum reams easily!
Ken

- you can use a '91+ plenum on an '88-'90 LIM; just use the '88-'90 (bigger) bolts. i have done it and it worked fine; but it wasn't quite 'right' IMO.

- you cannot use the '88-'90 plenum (like a TGP plenum) on a '91+ LIM. the '91+ bolts with the rubber sleeves are too big to fit through the earlier plenums, and even if you did drill the plenum bolt holes out so they would fit, the '91+ bolts are too small to thread into the earlier LIM. you could drill the plenum out bigger, but those bolts won't even come close to threading into the earlier LIM. it just won't work.

to do it the right way, swap plenums and LIMs together as a matched set; IOW, '88-'90 plenum should be used with the '88-'90 LIM and vice versa. if you want to keep your TGP plenum, then keep the '88-'90 LIM you have.

btw, the paper gaskets won't work on '91+ 3.1 MPFI engine? are the bolt holes in the paper gaskets too small? i really think the gaskets should be interchangeable. that would suck; no way would i use those metal/o-ring gaskets ever again.

[dbtk2]

It is fucking new. It was only in the motor for a week before I blew it the fuck up. I'm not fucking stupid.

Its not new if its been used for a week. Used ones will not seal and you will have a nice oil leak and you'll be pissed at yourself later. Don't reuse it, even if it was only used for a week.

Shawn

[Crazy K]

lol If you really don't want to change the distributor drive gasket, at least go pay 95 cents for an old style paper distributor gasket part number 12665 from autozone.
or look one up for a 78 chevy impala (any 70's GM v6)


The paper plenum gasket are too thin, on the 91+ plenum you can't hold the plenum down because the the bolts torque against the the lower intake by torquing through the metal jacket they are mounted through. No torque is actually applied against the plenum if the plenum is not held high enough(the gaskets job).
-Ken
P.S. the metal type are reusable if in good shape, according to service manuals.

[R Dubya]

you know autozone rents balancer pullers for nothing. :lol:

[GutlessSupreme]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8016914466&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

WINNAR!!!!!!!!

[chadz34]

Congratulations, that's a bargain.

[J]

- you cannot use the '88-'90 plenum (like a TGP plenum) on a '91+ LIM.

GOOD TO KNOW! :wink: :oops:

[gp90se]

I gotta ask, if the 91+ plenum fits on an 88-90 N/A 3.1 LIM (with the right bolts) why cant ya on a tgp?

[TurboSedan]

you can use a '91 plenum on a '90 LIM, NA or TGP. you'd have to drill & tap the plenum for a AIT though.

[GutlessSupreme]

the holes for the bolts on the '88-'90 plenum are smaller, because they were just the bolts. '91+ got spiffy sleves and stuff that fit perfectly into bigger holes in the plenum. kinda wish i had though (even though it doesn't really make a difference). And the pre-'91 bolts won't bolt into the '91+ intake manifold.

[gp90se]

I had a 92 plenum on the 90 3.1 for a little while, with the newer bolts it fit pretty good, but okey

[TurboSedan]

you must have had a '91+ LIM on the '90 engine? because no way are the '91 bolts going to thread into the '88-'90 plenum. the bolts are just way to small.

i had a '91 plenum on a '90 engine for a little while, but i had to use the older bolts.

[gp90se]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/camaro75lt/fireengine.jpg

thats a 92 lumina plenum melted onto the 90 grand prix

[J]

either way, good to know. I would hav been pissed when i found that out the hard way :oops:

[TurboSedan]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/camaro75lt/fireengine.jpg

thats a 92 lumina plenum melted onto the 90 grand prix

ouch! those look the the older bolts to me, but it's hard to tell.

[gp90se]

if I get the chance tomorrow, i have all the bolts from the intake/motor, ill double check which 1s I have

[GutlessSupreme]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/camaro75lt/fireengine.jpg

thats a 92 lumina plenum melted onto the 90 grand prix

ouch! those look the the older bolts to me, but it's hard to tell.

looks like it to me too.

[GP1138]

Well look! He did it, and his ENGINE BAY CAUGHT ON FIRE!! That should be a sign right there!

:lol: :lol: :joke:

[TeeJay3800]

Is it just the way the upper plenum/lower manifold bolts together that is different?

Also, is there any disadvantage to having a '90 3.1 as far as reliability etc?

[GutlessSupreme]

Is it just the way the upper plenum/lower manifold bolts together that is different?

Also, is there any disadvantage to having a '90 3.1 as far as reliability etc?

The actual threading in the LIM is different between the years, and the size of the bolt holes in the plenum. And of course the bolts themselves. The changes do not affect anything, certainly not any sort of reliability issue...

[TeeJay3800]

Good to know, thanks. :thumbsup:

[mfewtrail]

i prefer the paper Felpro plenum gaskets. Jeff M mentioned one time that one of his friends tried using those metal/o-ring plenum gaskets on a TGP, but couldn't get it torqued properly with an in/lb wrench and broke the plenum :shock: those ones listed above probably would work; the difference is the '91 bolts are 'bigger'. well, '91+ plenum bolts themselves are smaller, but they have a rubber sleeve which makes the bolt holes in the plenum (and gaskets) bigger.

You have to be pretty torque-happy(no offense to Tony and whoever else has broken a plenum :shock: ) to overtighten them that much I would imagine. I've got the fel-pro metal gaskets in my SE right now and had no issue torquing them to spec....I used them at the time because that's what came int the kit I purchased. The plenum does sit up a little bit higher w/ the metal gaskets from what I remember, but I would have to compare my 93 to my 90 to say for sure.

[TurboSedan]

yeah the metal/o-ring gaskets do make the plenum sit up a little higher.

i always use my in/lb wrench and torque the plenum bolts to 216 in/lbs.

[GutlessSupreme]

You have to be pretty torque-happy(no offense to Tony and whoever else has broken a plenum :shock: ) to overtighten them that much I would imagine.

Thing is I didn't even really tighten it down that much! I didn't really torque a thought so I just put them on pretty snug, but it shouldn't have caused that. Only thing I can think of is I screwed up the surface flatness when I hit it them with the die grinder (obviously that would do it if I made them uneven but I hadn't thought that they were).

[GutlessSupreme]

http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=C001&UserAction=performSearch&Parameters=Auto+Store%7C%7EREGULAR+PARTS+LOOK+UP%7C%7ETIMING+COVER+GASKET

Uhh.. which one do I need when doing the timing cover? Also, do I need a "timing cover seal" in addition to the gasket? :oops:

[TurboSedan]

yeah the seal is for the crank, and the gasket is for the face of the block.

link didn't seem to work.

[GutlessSupreme]

yeah the seal is for the crank, and the gasket is for the face of the block.

link didn't seem to work.

As in just the opposite of the main rear seal?

Odd, I checked the link before I posted it.. maybe it depends on cookies.


FELPRO
W/O SLEEVE "N" SEAL TCS45828 $13.99

FELPRO
W/SLEEVE "N" SEAL TCS45976 $6.99
WITH .565" SLEEVE LENGTH

FELPRO
W/SLEEVE "N" SEAL TCS45827 $19.99
WITH 1.040" SLEEVE LENGTH

ENGINE_SEAL 82813 $4.79

VALUCRAFT
W/O SLEEVE "N" SEAL VTS12240G $9.99

ROL TS12240 $4.69

I dunno what the difference is between all of them

[TurboSedan]

As in just the opposite of the main rear seal?


yup pretty much! but it goes in the timing cover not the block like the rear main seal does.

[GutlessSupreme]

As in just the opposite of the main rear seal?


yup pretty much! but it goes in the timing cover not the block like the rear main seal does.

OH right.. I totally missed that when tearing down the TGP motor. I never actually "properly" removed the timing cover though. In fact the crank pulley and a portion of the timing cover were still attached when I threw the crank out :oops:

So I assume naturally it'd be a good idea to change that while I'm in there.

[TurboSedan]

yeah mine came in the box with my Fel-Pro timing cover gasket. it's really easy to replace (much like an axle seal). i pulled mine out before i had the timing cover bead blasted, then put the new one in after i got it back.

[GutlessSupreme]

.

[dbtk2]

I know it was cheap, I just really can't see doing all that work and reinstalling a stock cam. As much as a turbo cam wakes these up....I just really can't see it.

Good luck with the project though, it should be back up and in good running condition shortly!

Shawn

[GutlessSupreme]

I know it was cheap, I just really can't see doing all that work and reinstalling a stock cam. As much as a turbo cam wakes these up....I just really can't see it.

Good luck with the project though, it should be back up and in good running condition shortly!

Shawn

I may wait.. we'll see what next week's paycheck looks like :wink: if I start getting my vacation pay I may be visiting Summit some time next week...

I am really interested in the cam you have, the 260, my only small concern is tuning? From what I've read the computer won't adjust very well, and I by no stretch of the imagination have the means/knowledge of tuning a chip myself, nor is it something I want to get into at this point. (I have a TG160, btw).

Also not sure on these lifters.. I haven't compared the old ones side by side yet but they're definetly somewhat different. Doesn't seem like the oiling groves on the side aren't* (misspell) as extensive on these, and they look a little different besides that too. We shall see...

[dbtk2]

I've done absolutely no tuning to mine. I have the same chip and although I don't know what the gain was because I did the topend swap and UD pulley at the same time, there was definately a huge gain with everything I did. According to my G-tech I gained ~7 tenths and 6mph in the 1/4. And although the G-tech isn't completely accurate, its pretty consistant with itself. And since I changed that much stuff it should've really confused the computer and I still got a huge gain, so I don't think I'd worry about the tuning aspect of it.

I'm sure with tuning the cam would offer much greater gains, but without tuning it should still provide good gains. The only problem you probably will have is after the cam you will pretty much be at the point where you will need bigger injectors to get any more power out of it.


Shawn