HID Group Buy Feeler... (INFO ON PAGE 3!!)

[bartonmd]

So... I'm putting out a feeler for a group buy on REAL HID... Kits are made by McCulloch and are completely plug and play... You plug the ballast harness into your stock headlight bulb socket (the one that currently plugs into the back of the bulb) and plug the HID bulb into the back of your headlight (where your current bulb goes), but I lied... not COMPLETELY plug and play... you have to mount the ballast and ignitor somewhere close to the headlight, but I think most people have a grasp of how to use self-tapping screws and/or double sided tape :wink:

Anyway, they have about any kind of single filiment bulb you want, I know my lumina takes 9005 (low) and 9006 (high)... This GB would be for a pair of bulbs (you need 2 kits to do both high and low beams) and everything associated (2 ballists, 2 ignitors, 2 bulbs, and instruction manual)... The GB price that we're getting on CBR1100XX.org is $185 per 5000k kit (2 bulbs) SHIPPED, and for each higher "k" value, it's an extra $10 (so for 6000k, it's $195, and for 8000k, it's $205, etc) and I believe bulbs that are both the high and the low (H4 for instance) are $100 extra per kit...

This is not who the GB would be through, but here is the kit... http://www.xenonking.com/5000.htm

Who's legitimately interested so I can get a halfway solid guess on a number?? I don't want to bother trying to set up a group buy if nobody's interested... THis probably won't be for a month or 2 so I and this guy can recover from the 1100XX group buy and you can get money together for it...

Mike

[bartonmd]

Thanks for moving this Mod... I didn't even see that there was a GB forum!

Mike

[terryk2003]

umm...just FYI...it would be almost POINTLESS to use HID's for your high beams...for one, there is a warm-up peried when you first turn them on which means you wouldnt be able to just FLASH your lights like you nomally would...for 2, its really NOT good to turn hid's on and off alot...

not sure if you noticed, but most cars with HID's have regular lightbulbs for highs, OR they use a Bi-Xenon light with only 1 hid but a sheild on the projector cutoff to make it appear brighter...

[bartonmd]

exactly... I'm only doing them on the low on my 'bird and haven't decided whether or not I'm doing them on the Lumina yet (don't drive it enough, I ride 20k miles/year and drive maybe only 10k)... Need to look at my wife's Neon, but I think it's a dual filiment style...

You are correct that it isn't good to turn them on and off all the time, but you CAN still flash people, because when they first ignite, they are REALLY bright, then then get dim and warm up (takes 4-5 seconds maybe)... but yes, I suggest only having HID on the low beams, but it'll be available for high beams also if anybody wants them...

Mike

[5speedz34]

I would like to read up more about HID in general and then go from there.

But depending on price I would be interested.

[bartonmd]

yeah, the prices are right at half the MSRP...

I know they are roughly the same length as the stock bulbs (this is how they get the same reflection pattern in good, multi-flector headlights like the 'bird)... at least the flame is the same length away from the base... BUT, the 2-door cutlasses take a H4351, which they don't have HID for I don't think... I haven't been into one of the 2-door ones... Are those small headlights sealed units? or are they bulb in reflector headlights?

Mike

[bartonmd]

yeah, they are sealed beam headlights...

[5speedz34]

From FAQ

Are these HID light systems street legal?

NO XENON HID conversion kit available from any source is DOT approved if installed outside of the factory. Moreover, in the U.S, this is not street legal for use on public roads. As a result, we officially endorse the kit for exhibition and off-road use and will only sell the kit to be used for these purposes. We are not responsible for buyers who violate the terms of sale while in which they will assume all responsibilities for any unauthorized or unintended use other than exhibition or off-road use.

for those who are scared of the law..... :wink:

Thank god Michigan doesn't have any enforcement for vehicle modification. :wink:

[bartonmd]

This is true Invasion... It really depends on how good your headlight housing is... It has to do with the beam cutoffs... They won't mess with you if you don't blind oncoming traffic... That being said, HID works better in multi-flector headlights (like I believe, the newer Liminas and Impalas... I'd have to go home and look at my '92 Limina's headlights and see what they look like, but I believe they are the kind that have the diffusors in the plastic in front of the bulb...

I don't want you guys to think I'm selling you anything or anything... I won't get anything out of the deal at all in fact... They are just doing the GB on the XX site, and I know how you guys like farkles (functional mods), so I figured I'd see about a GB...

Mike

[bartonmd]

This is true, thanks!

Mike

[bartonmd]

BTW, the installation instructions and pic of "what you get" are here... http://www.xenonking.com/installation.htm

I understand Invasion... How much room do you have to spare with the 9006 bulbs currently in your headlights?

Mike

[bartonmd]

I e-mailed them to see exactly how long the bulbs are...

[bartonmd]

Oh, God... they're not NEARLY that long... but I'm waiting for a response from them to be sure...

[GnatGoSplat]

Aftermarket HID will fit an H4351 sealed beam no problem, that's what I have in the 94 convert. Length is not a problem. Just make sure before buying HIDs that they have the neck with the O-ring. McCulloughs do have it from what I remember (I put a McCullough kit in my stepdad's Mark VIII). The only HIDs that can't be made to fit are the genuine Philips or Osram "9006" bulbs that are converted from D2S and D2R bulbs. Those don't have a neck.

[bartonmd]

Gnat, do you get flashed a lot or anything? Guess I'm just asking about how good the beam cutoff is on what you've got?

Thanks,
Mike

[GnatGoSplat]

In the 94, not a chance. The beam pattern didn't change, it's still the same old worthless beam pattern of the H4351's. Only difference is now it's blue (6000K bulbs), and blue is less bright than the whiter bulbs. People have commented on the "pretty blue headlights" before though. :lol:

I HAVE been flashed once in the 89 which I have 4300K Philips rebased bulbs, but I'm not really sure if it was my lights disturbing them or because it was some hooptie with an electrical problem (it was a boxy Caprice). I was also pointed uphill at the time. I've never been flashed on the highway or in town.

Our cars definitely don't have the sharp cutoff you'd expect on an import though.

[dohc v6]

I AM IN FOR 2 SETS

[bartonmd]

Invasion, Since they are a direct plug and play, I'd assume they'd have to have the stock style mounting... although I haven't seen them in person...

Mike

[J]

i'm down, but could we get the 6000K set?

[bartonmd]

i'm down, but could we get the 6000K set?

Yes, see my first post... for every level of "k" you go over the 5000k, add $10 to the price...

Mike

[bartonmd]

OK, here's the deal... If you want your shit right now, you can hop on the XX Group Buy and just order the bulbs you want (9005, 9006, whatever) BEFORE 9/20/05! You will need to BE SURE to say you're on the CBR1100XX Group buy though... Any further interest in this in a couple months and I'll set up one on the W-body/turboGP/60V6/l67swap/etc forums for people who don't just have the money laying around right now...

For reference:

This kit comes with:
2 x 5000K Xenon Bulbs
2 x Ballasts
2 x Ignitors
Instruction Manual


This isn't my BG or anything, I'm just passing along the GB from someone else, so take that for what it's worth...

Mike

[bartonmd]

Just ordered mine for my bike and got a "thank you for ordering, we will start shipping the kit out on 9/20" e-mail... I may or may not order ones for the car on the car forums GB later on, depending on interest...

Mike

[J]

sweet, so for sure do you know that they have the o rings on the shaft of them like davis was talking about? I'll order mine tomorrow if thats the case. later Jay

EDIT can we get that added 1 ear warranty for less then the 40 bucks on the website?

[GnatGoSplat]

Jay, you only really NEED the little neck w/O-ring if you have miniquads since the neck w/O-ring gets pressure-fit into the sealed beam housing. If this is for your Lumina, it doesn't matter either way (although I'm pretty sure these do have the neck w/O-ring).

[bartonmd]

Thanks Gnat!

BTW, on the warranty, I think that's just something that Xenonking.com does themselves and is not a McCulloch warranty (and in case you missed the 2 times (at least) I said it before, this GB is NOT through Xenonking...

Mike

Edit: and I believe they have a one year warranty anyway, and most of the failures you get out of electronics (this would probably be an electronics failure unless the bulb got dirty or something and cooked, because there isn't a filiment, the light is from the spark bridging a gap) are infintile failures... Basically, the failure graph looks like a bath tub (or a half pipe, whatever, but it's called a "bathtub graph") because there are a few failures when stuff is new from silicon or whatever, and very few in the "useful life" and then there start to be more when the "useful life" is nearing an end... Don't get me wrong, I've not seen any of these kits fail, but that was a blanket statement for all electronics, not just these kits... I figured that based on the rated life of these things, at an average of ~45mph, they're good for about 110k miles...

Mike

[bartonmd]

That's fine with me... I was just throwin' it down in case anybody wanted them NOW... I will say though that this guy is "hidseller" on e-bay with 160+ feedback... that's the only reason I'm in on the first one... But I understand your being liery...

Mike

[J]

i think i'll wait also, i'm down for two sets, one for the lumi and one for the Scion tC. Let me know if/when u set it up here. later Jay

[futuretgper]

hey.....im a total noob when it comes to this kind of thing.....and electronics in general.....i was just wondering if someone could walk me through some general info:

1. could i get a kit that would fit and run on my 90 TGP?
2. are these lights a noticable difference in lighting ability (distance, width or power of beam)?
3. what bulbs do i need for just the low beams? (or do i need a bulb that can go low-beam and high beam...not sure what thats called)

if i can get some info id be interested!!

thanks in advance for any help!!!

[bartonmd]

Your low beams are 9006 bulbs...

The 5000k HID puts out 3200Lumens, while a 9006 Silverstar puts out ~1000lumens and a standard halogen 9006 puts also out about ~1000Lumens... So HID puts out roughly 3 times the light, in basically the same beam pattern as your standard lights... The headlight housing determines the beam pattern, not the bulb... I've ridden friend's motorcycles identical to mine, except they have HID, and it's a WORLD of difference! Literally the difference between driving at night with lights and driving in the daytime...

FYI, tomorrow is the last day to get on the CBR-XX group buy (see my post at the top of THIS page) if you want them now... I'll try and set up a group buy in a couple months, but it depends on how the CBR-XX group buy goes as to if we can get a GB going at all, and if we can, the price we can get them for...

Mike

[futuretgper]

so the hid bulbs will fit in my headlights nearly or the same as an oem replacement bulb!?!

ill go over the link you put up and check out the GB!

edit: i just went to the link you had but im still not sure on the ordering and payment for this buy! you must pay in e-money (paypal)!??!! and i just send payment with an email stating the bulbs i want and such to: anchiu35@hotmail.com??

thats seems fishy to me!!

maby you could clarify what i need to do, to get in on this!

thanks for the help so far bart!!

[bartonmd]

Other than having to mount the ballast and ignitor, they mount the same, yes...

On the ordering, yes, you do as my post above states though Paypal from a bank-funded (not debit or credit card) account and he sends you the HID...

Basically, what I've pieced together...

1. I know this is the same guy as "Hidseller" on e-bay, and some guys have already gotten HID from him and been very happy with this same kit. He is also a "confirmed account" on Paypal.

2. McCulloch HID was purchased awhile back by a chinese company and are now being produced there (have been for maybe a year)

3. This guy is probably located in China judging by when he e-mailed me my confirmation, some of the stuff in the e-mail from Paypal to him was in chinese.

4. I immagine since they're made there, he gets them for CHEAP (hell, we're getting them SHIPPED for half of MSRP) over there and ships them to us from there (looking at some of his e-bay sales, shipping is usually $21.50 or something)

5. Either way, I went ahead the did the "money back guarantee" from Paypal for $10.50... I figure with the outside chance this guy takes the money and bolts (not likely because I know people who've dealed with him, and he knows we know his e-bay ID because that's how they contacted him about the GB in the first place), I get my money back... plus since we're getting them so cheap, I can justify the $10 insurance for a $185 purchase...

Mike

[futuretgper]

thanks again barton your a big help......ill probably end up getting a paypal account and getting in on the buy later tonight!!

[bartonmd]

I talked to this Andy Chui guy and he said we'd only need 10 kits to get a group buy going... I said we were thinking mid-November...

Mike

[bartonmd]

... got my tracking info today... it'll be here tomorrow!

Mike

[bartonmd]

Recieved kit, installed, BRIGHT AS HELL!, DONE.

BTW, the CBR1100XX Group Buy goes until the 30th now if anybody wants theirs now... It's really looking like I'm setting up a GB for the car forums in a couple months though...

Mike

[bartonmd]

I don't know where "the guy" is from for sure still, but they are drop shipped from the warehouse in China... The $185 for the set is SHIPPED... that's all you pay... everything is included in that amount...

Mike

[bartonmd]

Also, they may be doing something strange with customs... The "value" of the package was set as 75.00 something... it didn't give units (like $ or yen or whatever), and it said something about warranty replacement... I don't know if customs doesn't charge as much when something's a warranty replacement or what, nor do I care... It got to me, and cheap at that!

Mike

[futuretgper]

barton.......i just opened mine up and i was under the impression that there were supposed to be instructions!? so seeing as how you installed yours you think you could post some instructions!!! (im a total electronics nooblar)

pics to got along would be awsome too!!

but anything would be nice!!

[bartonmd]

yeah... I was under the impression there would be instructions too, but I read recently that the guy intentionally had them NOT included because it is really a car kit that we were putting in bikes and he didn't want the wrong instructions to mess us up. That having been said, I'll try and walk you through the install...

I DO NEED A PIC OF THE BULB IF YOU CAN TAKE ONE though... We had to put a spacer behind the bulb because all of the "H" (H1, H4, H7) bulbs just have a sheet metal flange that you put the factory spacer behind, but I think the 9005 and 6 bulbs would have to be factory-like bulbs.

Assuming the bulbs are "drop in" which they should be, directions are as follows:
0. DO NOT TOUCH THE BULB WITH YOUR FINGERS!!! THE BULB WILL OVERHEAT AND BURN UP IF YOU DO THIS! If you do end up touching it though, take some alcolal (rubbing) on a clean paper towel or something and clean the finger prints off of it, no harm, no foul (this is also the case for regular bulbs too).

1. take out old bulb after unplugging the wire harness from it.

2. Put HID bulb in the same way the old bulb came out (line up groves, push in, and turn to lock)

So now you have the bulb installed with 2 wires hanging down from it, and you also have the ignitor (black) and the ballast (aluminum) (and some zip-ties and double sided tape)

3. Plug the 2 connectors from the back of the bulb into the ignitor (they only go one way, if they don't go together, try the other way, this is pretty idiot proof)

4. Mount the black plastic part closest to the bulb (ignitor) by one of the included zip ties to something that doesn't move and doesn't get real hot (wire loom on the wheel well or something?) or you can mount it with a screw, whatever

5. Mount the Ballast somewhere where the wires can reach the factory wiring harness bulb plug. (either by the included double sided tape, or with screws, your choice, BUT if you do the double sided tape, make sure you stick it to something flat, and clean it with alcohal first so it actually sticks!)

6. At this point, everything is mounted and hooked up other than the wires from the ballast to the factory headlight connector on the wiring harness. There will be a piece of plastic that looks like an empty connector included with the kit. Test fit this (empty for now, no wires installed) to the factory plug. If it fits perfectly, snaps in and out, and everything, go ahead the put the wires into it (they snap in), put some dielectric grease in the connector, and plug it in. If it doesn't fit well, or at all, post up and I'll tell you what I did, but bike H7 connectors are different than car H7 connectors, so I won't go into that unless somebody had problems...

7. Run the lights for AT LEAST 10 minutes when you first turn them on! THis is a burn-in procedure for the bulbs. I'd start my engine THEN turn on the lights for this because they'll probably turn off when you start your engine.

Any more problems, PM me...

Mike

[futuretgper]

wow...that was so easy.....hahaha....did it in like 5 minutes......except for mounting the ballasts!! they look pretty bright too......very fast shipping too.......very pleased.......did anyone else get in on this?? the price was nice....i found the same kit for 350-400 i think on some other sites and 285 on a wrx group buy!! we got a steal!!

hey whats the best way to go about removing headlights though??

ps what are "sealed headlights" and why is it desirable?? (god im newblar)

[futuretgper]

wow...that was so easy.....hahaha....did it in like 5 minutes......except for mounting the ballasts!! they look pretty bright too......very fast shipping too.......very pleased.......did anyone else get in on this?? the price was nice....i found the same kit for 350-400 i think on some other sites and 285 on a wrx group buy!! we got a steal!!

hey whats the best way to go about removing headlights though??

ps what are "sealed headlights" and why is it desirable?? (god im newblar)

*update*

first night on the road with these babies.......they are very nice to drive behind!!! the near OEM install is such a breeze.....worth the 185!!

[bartonmd]

removing headlights? sealed headlights?

You're talking about removing the bulbs, or the whole headlight assy? and why?

And yes... we did get a STEAL on these!

Mike

[cutty]

we need some pics!!!!!

[futuretgper]

barton...just wondering i thought read something somewhere about sealed headlights as an upgrade or something (but now if HID's)...i dunno....no im gonna mount the ballasts behind the headlights so i want to remove them so i can drill and mount them properly...i can't find anywhere else to put them....where did you mount yours???

[bartonmd]

barton...just wondering i thought read something somewhere about sealed headlights as an upgrade or something (but now if HID's)...i dunno....no im gonna mount the ballasts behind the headlights so i want to remove them so i can drill and mount them properly...i can't find anywhere else to put them....where did you mount yours???

I don't know of any sealed beam HID units, other than the PIAA or HELA (sp) aux lights of course...

I mounted mine on the fairing stay, behind the headlight, above the oil cooler ram air, and under the guage pod... It's covered by the guage surround... :wink:

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'll tell you... I did it on my bike... I may or may not do it on my car in the one I will get set up in November, but I'm still not sure... depends on what bulbs the '06 Impala SS takes... Since my wife just got a job and is now only doing grad school part time, our income has doubled and in the next year or so, I'm thinking about buying one, me driving her Neon when I'm not riding my bike, having my Lumina as a spare, and dumping the 'bonneville... As much as I drive the 'bonne right now, I don't want to have HID just sitting there doing nothing... If the new Impalas take the 9005 low beam, then I may do it and just switch everything over with the new car... dono yet...

Mike

[bartonmd]

There will be one... Mid-November to let people save up the coin, because I know there are high school and college people here who work part time and don't have that kind of money sitting around... I talked to the guy and he said it was cool...

Mike

[mixe olds]

Count me in for the next round.

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

will this work for my 94 lumina euro and how much are these kits gonna cost?

[bartonmd]

will this work for my 94 lumina euro and how much are these kits gonna cost?

Not to be a dick, but R-E-A-D! I KNOW I've answered that at LEAST 3 times...

Mike

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

well im done for this so when everyones ready to order these up send me a pm and ill be in

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

well im done for this so when everyones ready to order these up send me a pm and ill be in

[cutty]

i still wanna see pics of these at night!!!

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

:withstupid: me to i wanna seethe difference they make with are cruddy headlights

[supreme_style21]

Yeah. Pictures. I'm curious to see the cutoff without a decent lense behind it. I've seen some nice HID kits that look like ass in stock headlight housings.

[bartonmd]

I too would like to see them from W-body headlights... I think FutureTGP'r is the only one on the board that got them... They make a PHENOMINAL difference in my bike, but that has a REEEEALLLY good lense stock...

Mike

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

well i messaged FutureTGP'r and he said he will try and post pictures of the HID on his car so hopefully he can give us a headsup he said they did make a noticeable difference and it was alot brighter and whiter looking

[bartonmd]

well i messaged FutureTGP'r and he said he will try and post pictures of the HID on his car so hopefully he can give us a headsup he said they did make a noticeable difference and it was alot brighter and whiter looking

I'll tell you, they DO make a VERY noticable difference since the put out over tripple the light of the stock bulbs, and they will be WHITE (don't remember, but I think he got the 5000k setup, or maybe the 6000k)... The only question is the beam pattern, and how fucked up it may or may not be in the relitively shitty stock headlights of W-bodies...

Mike

[Pabz]

I am in for the next group buy!!

[93CutlassSupreme]

why would the housings matter?


don't headlight housings focus and direct a source of light, the bulb? if so, you're just providing a brighter source of light. why would the housing matter then?

[bartonmd]

why would the housings matter?


don't headlight housings focus and direct a source of light, the bulb? if so, you're just providing a brighter source of light. why would the housing matter then?

They don't matter to the driver of the car with HID, but they DO matter to ALL the other drivers... SPecifically, with SOOO much more light, it REALLY does matter where all those "extra" little reflections go... YOu know how you have the "main" beam of the headlight, but you also have all the area to the sides and above the beam that are still lit up, just not as bright? Those are what's going into people's eyes, which doesn't matter with 1000 lumens, but with 3200 lumens, it REALLY starts to matter. Basically, you don't want anything with any kind of refractive lense as a front cover... Ideally, you'd like to have a *good* multi-flector headlight with a completely smooth and clear lense cover (the part that catches bugs) in front of it... The ones with refractive shapes in the front lense cover will blind oncoming cars...

Mike

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

so we got any exact dates for this buy yet?

[bartonmd]

nope... it'll start mid-november though...

Mike

[z34_nut]

I'm kinda interested, but I know I can't fit HID's with my cold air intake. Oh well.

[bartonmd]

I'm kinda interested, but I know I can't fit HID's with my cold air intake. Oh well.

why the hell not?

[terryk2003]

I'm kinda interested, but I know I can't fit HID's with my cold air intake. Oh well.

why the hell not?

:withstupid: :shrug:

[z34_nut]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/Frequency101/my%20new%20z34/mynewcar38.jpg

That 3" pipe comes in directly behind the housing. Its an increadably tight fit. The OEM bulb for the low beam cannot lock into position because there is not enough room. You can set it in there and twist it just a little bit, but you have to find other means of locking it in (tape!). Getting the bulb in and out is a whole nother story.

[bartonmd]

I don't know how long the HID 9005 and 9006 are, but you may be able to just take the housing out, install the light, and put the housing back in.

Anybody who got them on the CBRXX GB know how much longer or shorter the HID is than the factory bulb backing??

Mik

[J]

did we ever get any pics?>

[bartonmd]

did we ever get any pics?>

I haven't seen any...

[supreme_style21]

Pics and other drivers' reactions first. I'm leary with a stock assembly.

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

im still in i forget who but there was someone on the site that had some pics up on a different site of these in his i think cutlass or grand prix and they looked really nice ill try finding the link and link it up here

[J]

yeah i'm down, but want to see before after pics

[Kevinsluminaeuro]

well i found the page i was looking for on cardomain it was actually gnatgosplats car it shows the left bulb as a hid and right as halogen hope he doesnt mind me posting his link :thumbsup: P.S. im not sure how to post a link so ill see if this works [link]http://www.cardomain.com/ride/151083/5[link]

[supreme_style21]

Yeah we've seen his. He's said, IIRC, the spread was too obscene without a projector of some sort... IE blinding to other drivers.

[Pabz]

I am in for 1 set, is this group buy a go?? Who is taking care of this?

[bartonmd]

I'm taking care of it... I'm having some quandrys though...

Guy (same seller as the XX group buy) wants me to be a "middle man" so to speak and take money from all of you and give him orders as they come in (and he drop-ships directly to you), and charge whatever markup I want (he was talking like $75/set markup, but I'm thinking something between $5-$10/set), but in exchange, I do the tech/install support (he still does warranty stuff though). I'd do it for nothing if I didn't have to do the tech support, but you know how that goes...

It just seems kindof funny... with Paypal, you can't do more than $500/month with a personal account, but when you go to a premier account, it takes out the 2.9% + $0.30 for every transaction, whether it's from a credit card or not... but he won't take credit card orders.... only bank funded Paypal.

The only thing I can think of is, maybe it's that the credit card companies go after the vendor when the customer isn't happy for whatever reason, and he doesn't want that... I don't know...

I know he CAN deal directly with the end user, because he did it for the XX group buy, but seems to really want someone in the middle now... I'm just concerned that, since he ships them as "warranty replacements" rather than "new sales" that I'd be liable for all of the customs duty of everything if the shit hits the fan. He says there'd be no liability for me since he's the one shipping, but since I have an actual full time job and am not in college or anything any more, I'm pretty hessitant to put my neck out for very little return... I'm still talking with him about how it's going to go though... Should be up soon...

Mike

[J]

that sort of cncerns me also, but in more ways than one. For one this board really doesn't "know" you. I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but hwat if you decide to tkae our cash and we never get the kit? I hope you understand where i am coming from and not take it personally. ]
Later jay

[bartonmd]

I completely understand that... What you can do though Paypal is, pay the extra $10 with your order for the "money back guarantee" through Paypal. This is what I did when I ordered mine... BUT with me in the middle, if he doesn't ship your stuff, and you do the money back guarantee thing, it takes it out of my account, rather than the guy who's fucking us both, unless, of course, I also do the guarantee thing, which I see as Paypal just getting way too much money if they're getting the guarantee fee twice per actual transaction...

I am trying to see if he'll just give me a free kit or something for doing the tech support for him, and have you all go directly through him, but he didn't seem very responsive to that when I suggested it earlier. I may just have to go that direction, or stay out of it completely other than just posting prices and information...

I'll let you guys know how this goes...

BTW, any of the other group buys I've seen (for $75-$100 more than this price by the way) have been the same situation, except the buyers don't know that the guy they are dealing with is actually a middle man in the US that's drop-shipping from this guy overseas...

Mike

[bartonmd]

It has begun...

http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35849

Mike