1994 Olds 442 TWIN V6 Engines

[Turbocharged400sbc]

I'm new here at this site, and i wanted to show ya'll Al and I's Modern interpretation of the Olds 442....With Two V6 engines a 3100 V6 in the front and a fully caged rear with the front subframe/3800/Tranz from a 90 Trofeo swapped in. This season she will be going to the track to see what she will run with both engines (NA) and each having to haul only half the weight they originally had to (I will be seeing what my 74 Nova will run with up to 200Hp N2O and new heads-the Turbocharged 400sbc will be ready in another two seasons!). Then over this fall/winter I will be fabbing up a Turbocharger setup for the rear 3800 and converting to MegaSquirt DIY EFI for tuning it.
Early pic of the rear 3800 (def behind the front seats! :twisted: )
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/defbehindtheseat2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/SVI_0020.jpg
Check it out here and let me know what you think!?!
http://www.cardomain.com/id/94twinengine442
Regards, James

[Aaron]

I highly doubt you are anywhere near 400hp.

Anyways pretty unique project, good luck. There was one a while back, with dual L67s in a Beretta. Surprisingly it only ran a mid 13, everyone was saying 12s for sure.

[slick]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

[Turbocharged400sbc]

400+ (total) after the rear 3800 gets the Turbocharger, but right now she's probably closer to 350 hp total-wont know until it gets dyno'd (twice as expensive ouch) but at least we'll get track time this year, and with less than $2000 in the whole project it should prove interesting...Redneck/Lowbuck racing.

Twin L67's in a Beretta? got a link? I have been trying to find other twin engine cars (audiTT/Tiburon and the famous "Hairy" Hurst Olds twin 455 ci engines.
What did they do for the Beretta's rear engine? did they do a cage/tube chassis with a factory front subframe bolted up in the rear?
James

[Aaron]

I don't remember, it was a while ago, like 2-3 years.

[mfewtrail]

Saw the Olds on the 60* board, that's an awesome project. Does it run pretty well w/ two *different* motors and how are you controlling them at the moment?

[Turbocharged400sbc]

Runs great with two different engines/tranys just accelerates hard! you dont even feel when each trans shifts, launches great! the front just spins but the rear just squats and gets it movin. the 3800 uses the stock PCM with a Vats simulator (lost alot of the trofeo's harness/weight) two seperate shifters (when she's all buttoned up I will be getting video of the (2nd) 4 wheel burnout (F in Drive Rear in R or visa-versa) with both in Drive the rear tires need to be wet...and even then it moves outa the pudles real quick) the rear throttle is a progressive setup so that it doesnt overpower the front engine till it's past 75% throttle. The rear 3800 has a tranz circulation pump for driving with just the front engine (much better fuel economy feeding just a 3100 than 6.9L of engines lol)

[supreme_style21]

Ain't that some shit..

Saw you on a few other forums.. great stuff man.

[GnatGoSplat]

That's really some crazy shit!

The twin engines makes it unique, but wouldn't the front engine act as a drag to the rear engine?

[Jcrow]

Thats awesome! I have always wanted to do that, but didn't for the fear of it getting squirrly in the snow! Have you ever tried it in the snow?

[GP1138]

Sweet ass project!

I'm gonna have to move it to the other cars section, though.

[GnatGoSplat]

Sweet ass project!

I'm gonna have to move it to the other cars section, though.

How come? It's a Cutlass Supreme?

[slick]

Sweet ass project!

I'm gonna have to move it to the other cars section, though.

How come? It's a Cutlass Supreme?

That's what I'm saying...

[GP1138]

Sweet ass project!

I'm gonna have to move it to the other cars section, though.

How come? It's a Cutlass Supreme?

That's what I'm saying...

:oops: Shit! Sorry, I didn't see his CD page, and I saw "442" and didn't think it was a W. Ok, move it back. My bad! :oops:

[cutlsp]

i was thinking about doing the same thing :shock: only with a couple L67s or 4.9 v8s in my *parts* car :lol:

[Turbocharged400sbc]

the front engine is much more prone to just spinning the tires and revs faster to so when the front tires hook up we havent noticed any problems-each engine has only half (2/3rds) the original weight it had to move maybe on autoX but this puppy is fer straight line fun (does great around corners though--AWD)
And no we havent tried it in the snow as more work was being done over the winter, it's mainly going to be a nice day car and he will be driving a s10 blazer through the winters (pesky road salt ick) besides we'd wrather test the cage/chasis in a spectacular accident at the track than by "suzie, putting my makup on while changing CD's in a leased VW" crashing into the back of the 442 (it would fuk up the VW though, the rear inner bumper is a 4 inch diameter (3/16ths wall) steel tube right in front of the rear bumper!)
We hae thought about two northstar 4.6's but the cost is prohibitive! if we come across a 4.9 v8 though instead of another 3800 we have agreed to move the 3800 up front and put the v8 torque moster in the back...then turbocharge it, it just depends on the donor vehicle (the trofeo was free (FREEBIE!) and one day later we started hacking her up to do what we talked about that night while drinking beer.
we started the project when Al wanted to go faster and i remembered that in the early 70's GM was gonna kill the corvette (due to the pesky oil embargo) so two prototype twin engine cars were built, a twin 4 cylinder Monza and a twin v6 pont Ventura, both proved that they could run with a 70 corvette (Ventura nose to nose every test except it beat the vette in 0-40mph "traffic" sprints) and it got twice the mpg! (you could drive it on one engine!). The reason corvettes arent twin engined today-customers wouldn't pay extra for the cars extra components, maintenance. SO they CHoked the sbc V8 with smog components that reduced the output to (at one time 175 hp) way less than the 350 hp L-89 in 70.
We have just done the same thing for way cheaper!
And of course, we have yet to see one like it, YET, done by rednecks like us.
I love driving the 442 and when she gets buttoned up more I will be starting on turning my sisters (R.I.P.) 87 GTS into a twin 2.2L Turbocharged AWD street terror (oh you bet it's gonna be a sleeper!!) the look on a ricers face will be well worth it! besides i cant let Al have all the fun....
regards, James

[Aaron]

I would think, like Shawn said, that the front engine might act as a resitance to the 3800 since both sets of wheels have to spin at the same speed. So the 3800, although having much mroe power than the 3100, would have to slo itself down to the max speed of the 3100, wouldn't it? I believe it accelerates pretty good, but I bet this is the reason that the twin L67 beretta only ran mid 13s. IIRC, his fornt enigne was stock, and the rear had a pulley and a PCM tuner thingy, so putting out a bit more power than the front motor.

If it were me, I would use two identical motors, you'd achieve maximum acceleration that way, since neither would be slowing the other down noticably.

[Canada]

So this means the transmissions have the same gearing? Which years and models did they come from again?

As far as the power output.....and power curves.........that can't be real healthy having one motor push and pull on the other at verious times, but whatever.

[mfewtrail]

I would think, like Shawn said, that the front engine might act as a resitance to the 3800 since both sets of wheels have to spin at the same speed. So the 3800, although having much mroe power than the 3100, would have to slo itself down to the max speed of the 3100, wouldn't it? I believe it accelerates pretty good, but I bet this is the reason that the twin L67 beretta only ran mid 13s. IIRC, his fornt enigne was stock, and the rear had a pulley and a PCM tuner thingy, so putting out a bit more power than the front motor.

If it were me, I would use two identical motors, you'd achieve maximum acceleration that way, since neither would be slowing the other down noticably.

I thought the front motor had the pulley and whatnot? I can still picture the car(maroonish in color, kinda beat up w/ some rust on it) in my head, but lost the pics I had saved on the computer. :oops: Also, I think it did break high 12's at one point. Either way, it should have been quicker then mid 13's unless it wasn't controlled right like you suggested. Do you happen to have any pictures of the car? I've been having a hell of a time finding any information about it now, I do remember it being posted on clubgp like 2-3yrs ago.

[digitaloutsider]

So this means the transmissions have the same gearing? Which years and models did they come from again?

As far as the power output.....and power curves.........that can't be real healthy having one motor push and pull on the other at verious times, but whatever.
That's what I'm thinking.. it just doesn't seem to calculate right..

[buckethead]

I saw a twin engined audi TT on some car tv show (can't remember which). Both engines were heavily modded putting out close to 400 hp each! I guess it had 0-60 times in the low 3's or something like that.


EDIT: here it is: http://www.mtm-online.de/html_en/bimoto/detail.htm

[comptech_69]

I have a feeling that front transmission is going to be singing a tune of death in the near future... lol.

That thing is really cool though! It would be awesome to see it with dual 5 speeds linked to a common shifter with dual northstar 4.9's in it :mrgreen:

[Aaron]

I have a feeling that front transmission is going to be singing a tune of death in the near future... lol.

That thing is really cool though! It would be awesome to see it with dual 5 speeds linked to a common shifter with dual northstar 4.9's in it :mrgreen:

But you can't do that. No matter what, one engine will always outperform the other. So you will need to shift them at different times, or just let one peg off its limiter until the other catches up. Why they aren't so fast is like I said, unless power outputs are IDENTICAL, with every component IDENTICAL, one engine drags the other. The faster engine can only pick up RPM as fast as the slower one. So if you put a 87hp duke in with a 500hp L67, it really won't be that fast, since the max speed the L67 can turn is that of the Duke. Sure it will be faster, but not by much. Excepting originality, that really is useless.

[comptech_69]

But you can't do that. No matter what, one engine will always outperform the other. So you will need to shift them at different times, or just let one peg off its limiter until the other catches up. Why they aren't so fast is like I said, unless power outputs are IDENTICAL, with every component IDENTICAL, one engine drags the other. The faster engine can only pick up RPM as fast as the slower one. So if you put a 87hp duke in with a 500hp L67, it really won't be that fast, since the max speed the L67 can turn is that of the Duke. Sure it will be faster, but not by much. Excepting originality, that really is useless.



Well of course. But I was just saying it would be a cool idea to dream about. Of course to do that everything would have to be within certain specifications which would be nearly impossible for a common man. But in the ideal everything is perfect scenario, that would be one cool rig :)

[White93z34]

you have to also take into account that even if BOTH powertrains are identical, mod for mod, component for component, they are not the same, and will perform everso slightly different,

[Jcrow]

Your all not thinkin right! The 2 engines+ trans dont have to be identical. Think about it like a larger person pushing a heavy wagon, its hard to move but hes moving it. Now a smaller dude comes to help him, all of a sudden its easier on the larger dude

[GP1138]

Your all not thinkin right! The 2 engines+ trans dont have to be identical. Think about it like a larger person pushing a heavy wagon, its hard to move but hes moving it. Now a smaller dude comes to help him, all of a sudden its easier on the larger dude

Um, that's only if the smaller dude is in back, really. If the smaller engine has less power, the larger one will overpower it.

I was thinking the tranny of the weaker engine would have to be in a lower gear, but I'm not sure anymore. Damn, that's hard to figure!

[cutlsp]

i just can't help but think wait till you hit something or get hit your car will crumple like an accordian not the brightest thing to do cuting up a unibody car like that :?

[Turbocharged400sbc]

Your all not thinkin right! The 2 engines+ trans dont have to be identical. Think about it like a larger person pushing a heavy wagon, its hard to move but hes moving it. Now a smaller dude comes to help him, all of a sudden its easier on the larger dude

There you go someone is thinking, what matters is how much tq gets put to the road, no the transmissions are not matched, you dont even feel when each trans shifts, the acceleration is that smooth. when a car accelerates off the line the car tends to transfer weight to the rear tires hence the torquier 3800 in the rear (soon to be turbocharged) to push the car off the line, while the faster reving higher powerband of the 3100 just spins the front tires till they hook up and start pulling also. Its torque that accelerates a car, it's tq at higher rpms (also called Hp) that makes you go fast.
If you take two model rocket engines one smaller than the other and put each in their own rockets (equal size/mass) the smaller engine will not go as fast as the larger, now put both engines in one rocket (1.5 times the weight/mass of each ind rocket) and you will see that it goes faster than either of the two original lighter rockets, why? because it's all about total power. The "hairy" Hurst olds had two V8 engines and was very quick and never had any trans failures etc.
and yeah you can make a twin manual tranz car (the bimoto audi TT) but all the cables would be fun to run, and you would still have the wasted time between shifts where neither engine will be putting power to the ground...
there is a Delorean with a 4 cyl prelude engine in front and a 500 cu inch Torque monster Cadilac V8 in the back-no problems at all and has won a few awards, he makes these cars for fun!:
http://www.gendreaumicro.com/tenpointtwo/11472index.htm
and:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/t340252-twin_engine_awd_car.html
where, curtis73 stated,
It doesn't make any difference if the trannys shift together. You could have different engines with different trannys with different final drive gears and it won't matter. One just may end up pushing harder and doing more work than the other. If at 100mph if one engine is at 5000rpm and the other at 6000 it doesn't matter.
.
Quite true, in fact when dealing with the Cad 500s and TH425s, its often preferable to have them shift differently. A guy in Clymer, PA put two Cad 500s in an S-10. The front engine was near stock with just an Edelbrock intake, 204 cam, and 2.93 final drive. The rear engine was similar but had a shift kit, 220-ish cam, 10:1 compression, and 3.23 gears. They complimented each other nicely since while one was shifting, the other was in a sweet part of the torque curve. It felt like a six speed. For daily cruising he was trying to find a way to let the rear free-wheel without damaging the tranny. He was going to try to adapt 4x4-style hubs that could be disengaged, or use those wimpy shaft locks like RVers use on FWD dinghy towed cars. On demand double displacement :) Gotta love it. It was in the mid 10s which was pretty good for a 5500-lb truck.

and Andy Dorsett stated correctly

My setup will be for straitline performance and will almost definitley have a more powerful rear engine and more rear gear if possible. The reason why is the same reason it is a waste of time to make a powerful FWD car. The faster you accelerate the more weight is transfered to the rear wheels. A fast enough 60' time and you will have no weight on the front wheels which is why you have wheely bars. My initail calculations assuming a static weight distribution of about 55/45 (what I calculated a typical 65/35 FWD car with another drivetrain in the back to be) accelerating at about a G show the dynamic weight distribution to be about 33/67. The rear wheels need to have about twice the torque applied to them to fully utilize the traction available. This is where it becomes hard to get enough power to weight ratio to go 9s without being able to fully utilize the front drivetrain.

here is a car Mercedes benz engineers made, near the bottom they point out that just making it a V8 with AWD would have been heavier...
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/5350/atwin.htm

needless to say if you could go for a ride in it you would understand.....
regards james

[Turbocharged400sbc]

i just can't help but think wait till you hit something or get hit your car will crumple like an accordian not the brightest thing to do cuting up a unibody car like that :?

the unibody does nothing, the front and rear engines are connected by a tubular frame and a full cage, the unibody is essentially a skin over the tube chassis (much like a ProMod or funny car etc) the car is so stiff you can jack up the RR corner and lift the LR and RF tires off the ground without the strings (tied it diagnally (X) across interior) even sagging. the car corners much better than it did with just the front engine and no cage!
here is the RR strut view, the strut bucket is welded directly to the cage/chassis and the unibody is welded to the cage.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/RRstrutviewcage.jpg
and here you can see part of the rear cage (Aeromotive fuel pump mounted to it) that forms a triangle (with the Trofeo front subframe forming the bottom of the triangle)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/SVI_0024.jpg
here is a shot of the subframe in the car before the engine/transaxle got installed you can clearly see the triangulation of the cage-notice that the strut bucket isnt weled to the unibody-this will be filled in with sheetmetal for closed off wheel wells (BTW the stock fuel tank let us drive it around as work progressed-and till we got the fuel system mocked up and in)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/Pdoorviewoftoronadostrutssubframe.jpg
if someone did hit the car or it got into an accident we would surly walk away, and the other vehicle would be f**ked up! but this is one of the reasons it's a summer car, less chance for some idiot who's not paying attention to slide on the snow and hit us. lol the rear of the car has approx 1 ft to crumple before the rear cage bumper (4 inch tube) would get hit.
once the major interior work is done a roll bar and corresponding halo bar etc will get welded in incase of it rolling over (which would be difficult to say the least.
Yes safety is one of our goals, besides the NHRA/IHRA would think better of the car, even though we are limited to exibitions, and cant enter a racing class (unless someone makes one! lol), you cant go fast without thinking of driver safety...
regards, James

[cutlsp]

ah yes i did not see the cage at first look. i would have thought you would want to make it solid from front to back as in to the bumpers and up to the rear deck?

[White93z34]

you know how cool it would be to add in 4 wheel steering.... and with the setup you got in the back it probably would be prety easy to add it in....

[cutlsp]

i was thinking that too but how could they rig it up right? i can't figure that part out and dual pwr steering pumps can't be easy to maintain a 4 wheel steering system like that :?

[Jcrow]

Have a small (knob?) steering wheel in the center of the dash- front wheels left hand rear wheels right hand. HA LOL You would want to be able lock the rear steering for high speeds - otherwise youd be flippin over.
It would make for some cool low-speed showin off!
And then get some hydraulics with 16 switches. and some hollow-points for the snitches

[GnatGoSplat]

ah yes i did not see the cage at first look. i would have thought you would want to make it solid from front to back as in to the bumpers and up to the rear deck?

No, I don't think you want it solid. You want most of the strength in the passenger safety cage. The front and rear should be able to absorb some energy (crush) for safety. Haven't you ever seen one of those egg-in-a-cart experiments?

[Turbocharged400sbc]

4 wheel steering was thought of but all the setups we came up with woulda sucked engineering wise, so the Trofeo rack got welded in the center position! maybe when some rear steer GM trucks get in the Jyards i can grab the Delphi rack etc and make it work but i dont think it's needed...remember this is a lowbuck,redneck creation :lol:
Gnatgosplat ( :lol: love the handle!) is right you do want crumple zones. AND MAN do i remember doing those EGG dropping experiments! some of the most fun i had in science classes (man was that a while ago...i'm getting old...)
James

[cutlsp]

i didn't know that because i never did the egg droping expermints my highschool was dirt poor stupid public school :evil:

[bluegp]

Cool! A modern day Hurst Hairy Olds.

[Turbocharged400sbc]

on monday we finished putting in the (reman-90 Trofeo) axles, and some more wiring (damn snow). got to start her up check all fluids etc. we still have some more work to do and finish the rear firewall, but we got to drive her up the street-on an eyeball alignment-wet roads made fer a nice 4 wheel burnout but no smoke... :cry: still more than enough to get the adrenalin pumping :twisted:
we need to re register it but all in due time (need muffler on rear engine-LOL) this next monday will hopefully be video day so ya'll can hear this bad boy and see it in action (hoping fer decent weather)
here are some new pics:
Drivers side, rear axle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/newdriverssideaxle2.jpg
passenger side, rear axle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/passengeraxle.jpg
and new shot of the Aeromotive 100 psi pump and Magnaflow Y splitter
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/turbocharged400sbc/Aeromotivepumpandsplitter.jpg

cant wait to git on the road again.....
regards, James

[slick]

Can't wait for the video!

[z34_nut]

different.

i sure wouldn't have thought of doing that to a car.

[blk92z34getrag]

The engines are going to rev independently. I have never seen a setup like this but I can understand how these engines will pull at different RPM's in different gears. All they have to do is spin at the correct RPM for the speed. Neither one will be dragging the other. If you are flooring it, say you're going 20MPH and engine one is at 6500RPM redline, it will shift into second and start pulling at say 4000RPM, while engine two is only at maybe 6200RPM and still pulling. Both the front and rear tires are still turning 20MPH, but the engines are turning different revs, but due to the fact that both the front and rear wheels need to be turning the same speed, the engines' speeds will differ. This is why a dual engine setup is ideal, you can have one engine shift, while the other engine is still pulling, then that engine will shift shortly after.

Whoever said that one engine will be "pulling" the other needs to think things through a bit more. Hell this setup would probably be even better if you had a big torque motor hooked to a 3 speed and a high rev motor hooked to a 4 speed.

[TurboSedan]

(the trofeo was free (FREEBIE!) and one day later we started hacking her up to do what we talked about that night while drinking beer.

right on :cheers: sounds like you have alot of fun with these project and the skill & tools to back them up.



I love driving the 442 and when she gets buttoned up more I will be starting on turning my sisters (R.I.P.) 87 GTS into a twin 2.2L Turbocharged AWD street terror (oh you bet it's gonna be a sleeper!!)
regards, James

i would love to see this one, ecspecially since i also own a GTS. maybe a high hp 2.2L DOHC TIII on one end and a torque monster 2.5L SOHC TI on the other? hmmmm...

btw, could you have an auto trans on one engine and a 5 or 6 speed for the other?

[Turbocharged400sbc]

Well today, Al and I finished welding in the filal shofter cable brackets and ran a permanent throttle cable (progressive) was looking real good when we went to hook up the battery and........its dead. at this time it was really cold so we finished cleaning up and are hoping to at least get a clip of video tuesday evening....hopefully, we have to look at a couple of vehicles for As brother, maybe the tape will be under 500w Halogen lights lol

the last time we took her up the street she just pulled strong,the rear just hunched down and rolls the front just lights them up, pulls strong with almost no perceptable shifts.
still trying to finish the rear deck/firewall.

Hey D all good with the Tconverter sounds good for the 19th!

turbosedan, yeah its looking like I will possibly get a free 87 lebaron GTC 2.2 TI convertible (I maintained this vehicle for 6 years that i worked at Harry's on Rand (paltatine) and then the owner sold it to another Harry's customer)I might be able to score it for real cheap so two 413 3 spd tranny's will work great! it has a possible burned computer.

Lowbuck Redneck hotrodding!
regards, James

[Big Blue]

Hillbilly style to end :lol:

Looks like you put alot of work into her :thumbsup:

[Turbocharged400sbc]

heheheh Al and I just ordered the new 10 point cage for the 94 Cutlass 442 from JEGS!

GM 1988-96 Grand Prix/Century/Cutlass FWD
550-943104K
10-Point Roll Bar Kit $219.99

10 and 12 point roll cages manufactured from 1-5/8'' x .134-wall mild steel tubing
Includes 6'' x 6'' x 1/8'' mounting plates
Some tube ends in some kits are notched while most tube ends are not notched for a better custom fit in your particular set-up. This ''extra material'' provides you some leeway for a great fit and easier installation.
8, 10, and 12 point cages exceed NHRA and IHRA standards
Complete, easy-to-follow installation instructions included
Welding required (DUH!) hehe!

This is a pic of a 12pt cage our ten pt one doesnt have the top of dash to floor(behind seat) downbars that make the X at the drivers/passengers door......or the fiewall to front subframe bars that are in the pic (waiting fer another 3800 before we go doing that.....
http://www.jegs.com/photos/55012pointCage.jpg
:D :D :D :D :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[DiscoStudd]

DAMN! :shock: A "prefab" rollcage for W-Bodies?!?!? Now I've truly seen it all :o

[cutlsp]

OOOH that'll make my project car unibody a lot stiffer i think i know what i'm gonna buy for it first :twisted:

[z34_nut]

Damn, your really not fucking around! Nice to see some-one accually doing it.

[Turbocharged400sbc]

Well it's should be herer by friday or sat

the car already has 2x3 inch square tube underbody subfrme connectors that help allot for rigidy and as a skidplate of sorts in case of bottoming out--I planned that for how Al likes to drive... :shock:
the cage will help and let us finish the interior/center console etc if the front downbars go throught the dash we will leave the halo bar and front downlegs for a later date, when Al finishes getting the gauges and we do a whole new dash.
Once we get a front 3800 powertrain we can do a full 14 pt that will reinforce the front subframe mounting points
but thats in the future...lol

We are planning for a before July finish timeline and plates and tags even sooner. too nice out to not have a little fun :twisted:

Regards, James & Al